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On July 15 2011 16:47 Mayor wrote:
What do you think is better in this MU - the 15 hatch first described or the 15 pool later mentioned in the post?
Very very map dependent. On taldarim I will do it, metal, shattered are 3 ones I will do if they don't block. To stop it you have to pull alot of drones if they cannon rush. But usually 15 pool is probably what you should do most of the time.
If you like to do 15 hatch like me get a protoss practice partner and have him cannon rush you 15+ times in a row until you get good at defending against it. Thats what I did anyway.
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How economically focused is this build? Can you constantly harass with this build? Or is this more of a set up for the mid/late game?
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very economic. I am a very macro oriented player so all my builds go that way. You can be aggressive while having a good economy and being able to remake your units insanely fast.
You can do many sort of aggressive action, you can do mass drops, trying to take out the third, etc. Just all depends on your playstyle ^_^.
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How do you feel about the 3/3 Mass Ling infestor style against protoss?
We have obviously seen that it works wonders against terran (Thank you destiny)
But I first saw this composition for the purpose of zvp not zvt. I have tried ling infestors but I still seem to get wasted.
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On July 15 2011 17:56 SEA_GenesiS wrote:
How do you feel about the 3/3 Mass Ling infestor style against protoss?
We have obviously seen that it works wonders against terran (Thank you destiny)
But I first saw this composition for the purpose of zvp not zvt. I have tried ling infestors but I still seem to get wasted.
I don't like them in zvp or zvt actually. Right now ling/infestor works vs terran but I won't go into how that could not work vs good terrans.
vs Toss templar/zealot/archons will just demolish it. I feel roach/infestor is way way way superior to ling/infestor in every way zerg vs protoss. Just my take on it and I feel vs a good toss who see's ling/infestor templar/chargelot/archons would demolish it, storm + feedback + zealots + archons are so strong ^_^.
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roach/hydra is starting to be relevant again because protoss are moving away from the old deathball army into a +2 blink stalker -> templar/archon/stalker mix. However, I still prefer ling heavy armies because of their powerful backstab and hit and run potential. It's fragile in direct engagement but that can be negated with a well-placed fungal and a baneling bomb. Lings and blings are just so much more versatile compared to roaches and hydras which can only do direct attacks or defense.
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On July 15 2011 18:04 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 17:56 SEA_GenesiS wrote:
How do you feel about the 3/3 Mass Ling infestor style against protoss?
We have obviously seen that it works wonders against terran (Thank you destiny)
But I first saw this composition for the purpose of zvp not zvt. I have tried ling infestors but I still seem to get wasted. I don't like them in zvp or zvt actually. Right now ling/infestor works vs terran but I won't go into how that could not work vs good terrans. vs Toss templar/zealot/archons will just demolish it. I feel roach/infestor is way way way superior to ling/infestor in every way zerg vs protoss. Just my take on it and I feel vs a good toss who see's ling/infestor templar/chargelot/archons would demolish it, storm + feedback + zealots + archons are so strong ^_^.
I wouldn't dismiss ling/infestor as useless. Against protosses who don't go early robo there is a really strong ling/infestor/burrow timing attack that allows you to outright kill the protosses expansion with infested terrans. Also early/mid game lings are still strong. It's only when storm/archons get out that you need roaches. It's also not a composition with which you can just sit back and wait for the toss to go attack you. You have to stay aggressive and use your expandable lings to do damage.
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On July 15 2011 22:04 Marsupian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 18:04 blade55555 wrote:On July 15 2011 17:56 SEA_GenesiS wrote:
How do you feel about the 3/3 Mass Ling infestor style against protoss?
We have obviously seen that it works wonders against terran (Thank you destiny)
But I first saw this composition for the purpose of zvp not zvt. I have tried ling infestors but I still seem to get wasted. I don't like them in zvp or zvt actually. Right now ling/infestor works vs terran but I won't go into how that could not work vs good terrans. vs Toss templar/zealot/archons will just demolish it. I feel roach/infestor is way way way superior to ling/infestor in every way zerg vs protoss. Just my take on it and I feel vs a good toss who see's ling/infestor templar/chargelot/archons would demolish it, storm + feedback + zealots + archons are so strong ^_^. I wouldn't dismiss ling/infestor as useless. Against protosses who don't go early robo there is a really strong ling/infestor/burrow timing attack that allows you to outright kill the protosses expansion with infested terrans. Also early/mid game lings are still strong. It's only when storm/archons get out that you need roaches. It's also not a composition with which you can just sit back and wait for the toss to go attack you. You have to stay aggressive and use your expandable lings to do damage.
You are referring to Destiny's pet, but not only is it not at all refined, but it also only works because no one has seen it before. Destiny knows as much. I promise you it will stop working very quickly. Why? because 2 cannons can cover the entrance on every base besides XNC and Protoss are just greedy right now by not making a decent spread of their cannons.
Furthermore, I watch Huk's play (where most of this occurred) and the only times it won outright were when he was hardcore teching. He never tried a 5/6 gate or a 1 star expand or anything besides expand into blink stalker or templar. It maybe strong regardless, but Destiny had to start going for his timing attack way before he ruled out 6 gate, and 6 gate hits at 9:30, Destiny's hit close to 11 because he gets 1/1 and about 6 infestors.
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Hi, I am top 300 zerg.. about cannon rushing I feel you actually have to bring 2 drones against 13 forge or you will lose hatch if he pulls a 2nd probe. You know how you attack follow his probe then when he goes near ramp or near behind hatchery you stop attacking and you right click into the block spot so he can't S then pylon wall. If he, say, goes to the ramp and while he's at the ramp his 2nd probe comes behind the hatch and 3-pylon walls behind there you lose hatch. If he goes behind hatch with 1st probe then 2nd probe comes to bottom of ramp he 3 pylon walls your ramp and you lose the game. Hence you need 2 drones???
You also need a drone patrolling the ramp by 2:10 on every map no matter what. If you do not, you will have a 100% loss rate against 13 forge. Even no gas 14 pool with auto drone pull to fight the most exposed pylon dies to this.
I don't agree with 22-24 overlord. If you 24 overlord off 15 pool 15 gas and hatch without being blocked this is the optimal overlord. 24 overlord with pylon block is still fine, you're hardly supply blocked. Idra 24 overlords off 15pool 15/16 gas every game even if he gets blocked. If you 25 overlord with hatch first 18/19 gas then this is perfect. 24/25 after hatch first is optimal, 25 you're supply blocked for a tiny bit if you went speed before 25 supply and you're mining pure minerals, but this isn't much of a problem as there's no injection popping yet so spawn larvae isn't stymied. 25 is idra's standard no matter what. 24 and you have no supply blockage. This was egmachines standard a few months ago, not sure what it is now.
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On July 16 2011 02:45 arbitrageur wrote:
Hi, I am top 300 zerg.. about cannon rushing I feel you actually have to bring 2 drones against 13 forge or you will lose hatch if he pulls a 2nd probe. You know how you attack follow his probe then when he goes near ramp or near behind hatchery you stop attacking and you right click into the block spot so he can't S then pylon wall. If he, say, goes to the ramp and while he's at the ramp his 2nd probe comes behind the hatch and 3-pylon walls behind there you lose hatch. If he goes behind hatch with 1st probe then 2nd probe comes to bottom of ramp he 3 pylon walls your ramp and you lose the game. Hence you need 2 drones???
You also need a drone patrolling the ramp by 2:10 on every map no matter what. If you do not, you will have a 100% loss rate against 13 forge. Even no gas 14 with auto drone pull to fight the most exposed pylon dies to this.
I don't get pylon blocked due to using my drone how I do. I can always get it to block the third pylon before it arrives. Also that is why I have an overlord at my natural'ish area. I will see that probe coming and get a drone to the ramp (or on taldarim) to that choke before that probe can get there to pylon block.
I also scout on 14-15 supply also and if I see a forge I will automatically bring a second drone to prepare in any case.
Are you top 300 on NA or SEA? (this is just curiosity!)
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On July 16 2011 02:48 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 02:45 arbitrageur wrote:
Hi, I am top 300 zerg.. about cannon rushing I feel you actually have to bring 2 drones against 13 forge or you will lose hatch if he pulls a 2nd probe. You know how you attack follow his probe then when he goes near ramp or near behind hatchery you stop attacking and you right click into the block spot so he can't S then pylon wall. If he, say, goes to the ramp and while he's at the ramp his 2nd probe comes behind the hatch and 3-pylon walls behind there you lose hatch. If he goes behind hatch with 1st probe then 2nd probe comes to bottom of ramp he 3 pylon walls your ramp and you lose the game. Hence you need 2 drones???
You also need a drone patrolling the ramp by 2:10 on every map no matter what. If you do not, you will have a 100% loss rate against 13 forge. Even no gas 14 with auto drone pull to fight the most exposed pylon dies to this. I don't get pylon blocked due to using my drone how I do. I can always get it to block the third pylon before it arrives. Also that is why I have an overlord at my natural'ish area. I will see that probe coming and get a drone to the ramp (or on taldarim) to that choke before that probe can get there to pylon block. I also scout on 14-15 supply also and if I see a forge I will automatically bring a second drone to prepare in any case. Are you top 300 on NA or SEA? (this is just curiosity!)
I don't ladder on NA. This was just estimation after I adjusted for population differences between SEA and NA and my experience against NA players.
Oo early drone scouting would solve the 13 forge problem! I'm just wondering, what do you do if you see 1 gas and some chronos on core and normal 12/13 gate? I feel if you mass ling then he just 1 gas 3 gate expos u have to gg... but if you don't mass ling ur dead to 1 gas 4 gate ;SSS And without 14g14p u cant really keep checking his chronos because his zeal stalker will mean ur lings can't keep poking his ramp. Have you solved this?
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On July 16 2011 02:53 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 02:48 blade55555 wrote:On July 16 2011 02:45 arbitrageur wrote:
Hi, I am top 300 zerg.. about cannon rushing I feel you actually have to bring 2 drones against 13 forge or you will lose hatch if he pulls a 2nd probe. You know how you attack follow his probe then when he goes near ramp or near behind hatchery you stop attacking and you right click into the block spot so he can't S then pylon wall. If he, say, goes to the ramp and while he's at the ramp his 2nd probe comes behind the hatch and 3-pylon walls behind there you lose hatch. If he goes behind hatch with 1st probe then 2nd probe comes to bottom of ramp he 3 pylon walls your ramp and you lose the game. Hence you need 2 drones???
You also need a drone patrolling the ramp by 2:10 on every map no matter what. If you do not, you will have a 100% loss rate against 13 forge. Even no gas 14 with auto drone pull to fight the most exposed pylon dies to this. I don't get pylon blocked due to using my drone how I do. I can always get it to block the third pylon before it arrives. Also that is why I have an overlord at my natural'ish area. I will see that probe coming and get a drone to the ramp (or on taldarim) to that choke before that probe can get there to pylon block. I also scout on 14-15 supply also and if I see a forge I will automatically bring a second drone to prepare in any case. Are you top 300 on NA or SEA? (this is just curiosity!) I don't ladder on NA. This was just estimation after I adjusted for population differences between SEA and NA and my experience against NA players. Oo early drone scouting would solve the 13 forge problem! I'm just wondering, what do you do if you see 1 gas and some chronos on core and normal 12/13 gate? I feel if you mass ling then he just 1 gas 3 gate expos u have to gg... but if you don't mass ling ur dead to 1 gas 4 gate ;SSS And without 14g14p u cant really keep checking his chronos because his zeal stalker will mean ur lings can't keep poking his ramp. Have you solved this?
I get a roach warren at a good timing to where I can make roaches if I see he's 4 gating. You can always scout his expansion if he's going to lay one down or not even when your lings are slow.
I have started getting my gas a little earlier so I can get ling speed just in time for a 4 gate but you can scout just fine with slow lings. Sending 1 ling to the top of the ramp is a good idea even if they are slow. If you see a stalker you have to be cautious for a 4 gate.
You should be controlling the watch towers so you can see if he's moving out or warping in units at the tip of his base. Looking for proxy pylons is smart to so that you can kill them before his warp gates finish. Have a ling hang out behind his natural on hold position and see if his nexus goes up. I check with an overlord but you can check with a slowling to if for some reason you can't get an overlord behind his natural without it dying.
You could also sacrifice an overlord while running a ling up the ramp to try and distract him to see if you can see any tech or anything like that. But Yeah I have a roach warren done about 30 seconds before a 4 gate hits I believe so that I can make roaches and use roach/ling to defend against a 4 gate.
This part of the strategy with my roach warren timing I have been doing sense like beta I think when 4 gate was always done 90% of the time.
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What do you do against a 6gate timing push? I'm not sure when exactly it's meant to hit, but I lost to it the one time I did face it, cause I was overwhelmed by the number of gateway units that early in the game.
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I still don't get how 15 hatch is safe against a cannon rush :/
Especially if they do a "hot bid" cannon rush hiding their cannons behind a wall of minerals and pylons. You won't even have the surface area to deal with the cannons and would be pretty much forced to cancel :/
How would you deal with it?
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On July 21 2011 22:52 Ardhimas wrote:
What do you do against a 6gate timing push? I'm not sure when exactly it's meant to hit, but I lost to it the one time I did face it, cause I was overwhelmed by the number of gateway units that early in the game.
If they forge fast expanded then it hits at about 9-9:30 minutes. You want to start making units at 8:30 at the latest if you think a 6 gate is coming.
If he 3 gate expanded I imagine it hits at about 8 minutes maybe but I am not really to sure if its the same time or not with 3 gate expand or not xD.
On July 22 2011 00:35 XXhkXX wrote:
I still don't get how 15 hatch is safe against a cannon rush :/
Especially if they do a "hot bid" cannon rush hiding their cannons behind a wall of minerals and pylons. You won't even have the surface area to deal with the cannons and would be pretty much forced to cancel :/
How would you deal with it?
Only on a few maps you can hold it. You need to have a drone on hold position in a spot where they can put a cannon and block with pylons. You have to pull a lot of drones if they do the "all inish" type of cannon rush which if you hold puts you in amazing position.
What I would do if I were you, would have a friend cannon rush you like 50 million times in a row until you are used to holding it off. Thats what I did and it helped alot. I would 15 hatch on metal/shattered temple/taldarim are 3 maps I can think of off the top of my head that I will 15 hatch on if I can and they don't block it.
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On July 22 2011 02:41 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:35 XXhkXX wrote:
I still don't get how 15 hatch is safe against a cannon rush :/
Especially if they do a "hot bid" cannon rush hiding their cannons behind a wall of minerals and pylons. You won't even have the surface area to deal with the cannons and would be pretty much forced to cancel :/
How would you deal with it? Only on a few maps you can hold it. You need to have a drone on hold position in a spot where they can put a cannon and block with pylons. You have to pull a lot of drones if they do the "all inish" type of cannon rush which if you hold puts you in amazing position. What I would do if I were you, would have a friend cannon rush you like 50 million times in a row until you are used to holding it off. Thats what I did and it helped alot. I would 15 hatch on metal/shattered temple/taldarim are 3 maps I can think of off the top of my head that I will 15 hatch on if I can and they don't block it.
But on a map like taldarim, there are so many spots behind your nat and the little choke between ur nat and ur main. Like he could do a complete wall at your choke or behind the minerals, so would you just have two drones patroling and then pull three more if he cannons anywhere else?
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On July 25 2011 13:48 XXhkXX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:41 blade55555 wrote:On July 22 2011 00:35 XXhkXX wrote:
I still don't get how 15 hatch is safe against a cannon rush :/
Especially if they do a "hot bid" cannon rush hiding their cannons behind a wall of minerals and pylons. You won't even have the surface area to deal with the cannons and would be pretty much forced to cancel :/
How would you deal with it? Only on a few maps you can hold it. You need to have a drone on hold position in a spot where they can put a cannon and block with pylons. You have to pull a lot of drones if they do the "all inish" type of cannon rush which if you hold puts you in amazing position. What I would do if I were you, would have a friend cannon rush you like 50 million times in a row until you are used to holding it off. Thats what I did and it helped alot. I would 15 hatch on metal/shattered temple/taldarim are 3 maps I can think of off the top of my head that I will 15 hatch on if I can and they don't block it. But on a map like taldarim, there are so many spots behind your nat and the little choke between ur nat and ur main. Like he could do a complete wall at your choke or behind the minerals, so would you just have two drones patroling and then pull three more if he cannons anywhere else?
You should pull more then 3 drones if he starts cannoning as odds are he's doing the cannon rush that if fails puts him behind in tech + a base. I would test vs a protoss opponent and have him cannon rush you 50 games in a row until you are a pro at holding it. Or just not do it  . But I like going hatch first if possible, and I know other people are like that but if you dont' want to deal with it dont' have to ^^.
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On July 15 2011 23:24 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 22:04 Marsupian wrote:On July 15 2011 18:04 blade55555 wrote:On July 15 2011 17:56 SEA_GenesiS wrote:
How do you feel about the 3/3 Mass Ling infestor style against protoss?
We have obviously seen that it works wonders against terran (Thank you destiny)
But I first saw this composition for the purpose of zvp not zvt. I have tried ling infestors but I still seem to get wasted. I don't like them in zvp or zvt actually. Right now ling/infestor works vs terran but I won't go into how that could not work vs good terrans. vs Toss templar/zealot/archons will just demolish it. I feel roach/infestor is way way way superior to ling/infestor in every way zerg vs protoss. Just my take on it and I feel vs a good toss who see's ling/infestor templar/chargelot/archons would demolish it, storm + feedback + zealots + archons are so strong ^_^. I wouldn't dismiss ling/infestor as useless. Against protosses who don't go early robo there is a really strong ling/infestor/burrow timing attack that allows you to outright kill the protosses expansion with infested terrans. Also early/mid game lings are still strong. It's only when storm/archons get out that you need roaches. It's also not a composition with which you can just sit back and wait for the toss to go attack you. You have to stay aggressive and use your expandable lings to do damage. You are referring to Destiny's pet, but not only is it not at all refined, but it also only works because no one has seen it before. Destiny knows as much. I promise you it will stop working very quickly. Why? because 2 cannons can cover the entrance on every base besides XNC and Protoss are just greedy right now by not making a decent spread of their cannons. Furthermore, I watch Huk's play (where most of this occurred) and the only times it won outright were when he was hardcore teching. He never tried a 5/6 gate or a 1 star expand or anything besides expand into blink stalker or templar. It maybe strong regardless, but Destiny had to start going for his timing attack way before he ruled out 6 gate, and 6 gate hits at 9:30, Destiny's hit close to 11 because he gets 1/1 and about 6 infestors.
Morrow also uses a similar style. He goes for banelings and drops before infestors though. He also is far more eco orientated.
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Is roach/hyrda/corrupter the go-to composition against sentry/stalker/colossus? I played a game today where I went roach/ling/infestor against the protoss army, but got demolished, to the point where he just walked into my base and killed me. I had 90 drones (above the ideal 80?), which may have been too much, but even I don't think 10 more supply would have helped. I'm just so lost in ZvP in terms of just fighting the units. I'm great at getting a strong economy, but I have no idea what to do with it.
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On July 25 2011 15:14 KimJongChill wrote:
Is roach/hyrda/corrupter the go-to composition against sentry/stalker/colossus? I played a game today where I went roach/ling/infestor against the protoss army, but got demolished, to the point where he just walked into my base and killed me. I had 90 drones (above the ideal 80?), which may have been too much, but even I don't think 10 more supply would have helped. I'm just so lost in ZvP in terms of just fighting the units. I'm great at getting a strong economy, but I have no idea what to do with it.
If you are going roach/hydra/corrupter you need to be dropping multiple places while attacking to make it viable now of days.
with roach/ling/infestor you should do an attack and try to deny his third, at least lowering his colossi count if possible.
Having 90 drones isn't a big deal, 10 supply won't make that big of a difference in a huge fight if your army is getting rolled over.
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EPT
