EPT[G]Zerg vs Protoss - Page 5
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 29 2011 04:14 Indrium wrote: Hey blade, do you ever pull guys out of gas? I suppose in any matchup. Looking for your opinion on this. Thanks in advance. Yeah I do in almost all mu's but not zvz. I mean early game I do it in zvp/zvt sometimes. I do pull guys off gas late game sometimes when I have alot more gas then minerals as I don't see the point in getting more gas when I really need minerals. I also sometimes only put 1-2 guys on my 2nd/3rd gas guiser as I don't need 3 on gas. I do it randomly just depends what i'm trying too do. An example would be if I was going too do a roach/ling all in. I would take 1 guy off of gas too leave 2 and just attack. Or if you want too do it more ling heavy after your initial roaches you take all guys or 2 of them off of gas. I think I'm getting better at this. http://www.mediafire.com/?85xfb8sac1p3hqi any criticisms ? edit: I know these are only diamond players >< Yeah. When you saw he was doing a 4 gate, don't push out with your roaches as that can backfire on you real fast if he FF's those and your going too lose the game doing that. In the future if you want too see his army or find its location, just send 1 zergling out as its much more effective and safer! You want too saturate both your bases if possible before making a ton of units (you held his 4 gate, and saw he was expanding he's not gonna push for awhile). Too see select your mineral drones only and you can see how saturated it is. 24 is saturated but having 21-23 is fine most zergs don't fully saturate both bases but 21-23 drones on both is what you want minerals only, this is not counting gas! Also again, you go too Hydra heavy. You want hydra's, but not as the main core of your army. You want more roaches then hydra's most of the time (making a ton of hydra's as reinforcements is different but in this early part of the game you don't want too many due to colossi). Your spire timing was pretty good try too keep that. remember not too make Corruptors until after you see the first colossi out (you do this by running an overlord in his base, find his army, etc.) Your doing a good job droning up as well and not just stopping completely after awhile. Thats good, you want too try too get 75 drones is always my goal. You made corruptors way too early this game, and blindly. That is not what you want too do because if he just goes gateway units your army is going to be alot weaker then it should be. Could have taken your fourth base earlier as well. You should get overlord speed, and should have drone pumped a little more as 64 drones is too few as the game goes later on. You also shouldn't be able too afford using 2 macro hatches with your main hatch, work on that macro! You did pretty good otherwise that whole game, but would make less hydra's early (and add them in a little bit later). And remember to always be macroing, 1 macro hatch is fine, but should not need 3 that is something you should work on. Keep scouting with an overlord through his main, his army and when you see a colossi that is when you should make corruptors imo. | ||
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Venomous Drone
48 Posts
As i had stopped my drone production completely to make army, i was behind both in economy and army (his greater eco boosted his army). Thus i droned like crazy taking a risk and finaly managed to win. However, watching the replay, i felt so hopeless: he had a HUGE window to just go outright and kill me. replay: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Jimmy_vs_(Z)VenoM_shakuras_plateau_sc2rep_com_20110428/7638 I made those extra queens and the evo chamber because his push wasnt coming and i feared a possible 3 gate+void push. On reflection i think that, in the future, I will keep making drones one at a time from the 7:00 minute mark if his push doesnt come. Any advice? (on anything, not only the droning bit) By the way, in you first replay, the one where the toss faked a 3 gate expo but was 4 gating, how did you know it was a fake? I saw you start making only units and spinecrawlers even when you saw the nexus. Thankyou for this marvellous guide! And your stream is great, you make it seem so effortless to kill master level protosses  | ||
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Disarray
United States1164 Posts
On April 29 2011 04:39 blade55555 wrote: Yeah I do in almost all mu's but not zvz. I mean early game I do it in zvp/zvt sometimes. I do pull guys off gas late game sometimes when I have alot more gas then minerals as I don't see the point in getting more gas when I really need minerals. I also sometimes only put 1-2 guys on my 2nd/3rd gas guiser as I don't need 3 on gas. I do it randomly just depends what i'm trying too do. An example would be if I was going too do a roach/ling all in. I would take 1 guy off of gas too leave 2 and just attack. Or if you want too do it more ling heavy after your initial roaches you take all guys or 2 of them off of gas. Yeah. When you saw he was doing a 4 gate, don't push out with your roaches as that can backfire on you real fast if he FF's those and your going too lose the game doing that. In the future if you want too see his army or find its location, just send 1 zergling out as its much more effective and safer! You want too saturate both your bases if possible before making a ton of units (you held his 4 gate, and saw he was expanding he's not gonna push for awhile). Too see select your mineral drones only and you can see how saturated it is. 24 is saturated but having 21-23 is fine most zergs don't fully saturate both bases but 21-23 drones on both is what you want minerals only, this is not counting gas! Also again, you go too Hydra heavy. You want hydra's, but not as the main core of your army. You want more roaches then hydra's most of the time (making a ton of hydra's as reinforcements is different but in this early part of the game you don't want too many due to colossi). Your spire timing was pretty good try too keep that. remember not too make Corruptors until after you see the first colossi out (you do this by running an overlord in his base, find his army, etc.) Your doing a good job droning up as well and not just stopping completely after awhile. Thats good, you want too try too get 75 drones is always my goal. You made corruptors way too early this game, and blindly. That is not what you want too do because if he just goes gateway units your army is going to be alot weaker then it should be. Could have taken your fourth base earlier as well. You should get overlord speed, and should have drone pumped a little more as 64 drones is too few as the game goes later on. You also shouldn't be able too afford using 2 macro hatches with your main hatch, work on that macro! You did pretty good otherwise that whole game, but would make less hydra's early (and add them in a little bit later). And remember to always be macroing, 1 macro hatch is fine, but should not need 3 that is something you should work on. Keep scouting with an overlord through his main, his army and when you see a colossi that is when you should make corruptors imo. thanks man, great advice overall. I'd say I made too many hydras that game because (and like you point out) hydras wreck gateway units, and since I over-committed on corruptors, he pretty much stopped colossus production. seems like its scouting, timing (spire, expands) and macro I need to work on. Thanks again man! | ||
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kingJY
United States39 Posts
great guide btw | ||
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
Also, the main build I use vP is: 9 ovie 14gas 14pool 15ovie pull drones off gass at 100 gas speed + queen when pool finishes 22 hatch 22 overlord 24 queen put drones back on gas. How do you think this compares to a 15 pool? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 08 2011 05:59 loveeholicce wrote: Whenever I go hatch first i end up getting my expo blocked by a probe or a pylon if he sucks and wants to sidestep the whole probe micro part. What do you do against this? just about every protoss will know when to scout and still be able to reach your natural before a 15 hatch goes down. Also, the main build I use vP is: 9 ovie 14gas 14pool 15ovie pull drones off gass at 100 gas speed + queen when pool finishes 22 hatch 22 overlord 24 queen put drones back on gas. How do you think this compares to a 15 pool? The getting hatch first blocked happens alot. hatch first should be used on bigger maps where you can defend vs cannon rushes easy. I think 15 pool is better for multiple reasons If he forge FE's, I can double expand (you won't really be able too do this as fast with 14/14). You really don't need speedlings that fast vs toss as you can't really do any damage with them unless your doing an all in roach/ling attack. I prefer 15 pool but 14/14 is fine if you really like too have speedlings sooner. Also thought I would point out at high masters/grandmaster league this build isn't as good anymore. Now that toss players got better using protoss this style is much harder too pull off. I don't really know whats the best strategy too do vs toss right now at my level of play but when I add that build too the guide. I have tried roach/infestor and just don't' like it at all, I have yet too beat a decent protoss with it so that is not a build I am going too add. for anyone below those level of play this guide should work out great still ^^. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
It is in the OP under "going roach/infestor". Here is where you can download 3 replays where I do this (might not be 100% exact as the bo but close enough). http://www.mediafire.com/?2xrbsqvn2hdfrss | ||
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Chutoro
New Zealand95 Posts
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watwat
48 Posts
much less likely to get my hatch blocked by probe/pylon | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 27 2011 11:32 Chutoro wrote: I don't see burrow/claws anywhere in your roach/infestor section - is that an oversight, or do you not get them at this point? If you don't get them, is there anything you might scout from P that would cause you to get them sooner? I assume you will want them eventually if you see sentries and/or colossi. I haven't been getting them when going infestor, I haven't gotten it yet when going roach/infestor but I know I have extra gas to so I am going to start I guess I should add that in :D The only time I can see getting it first now of days is if he goes 6 gate no robo. | ||
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ETisME
12632 Posts
the overseer always get sniped too easily and colossi and DTs just kill off all the units trapped by FF. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 30 2011 05:00 ETisME wrote: any good tips that can handle a death ball which has DTs, stalkers, colossi and sentries? the overseer always get sniped too easily and colossi and DTs just kill off all the units trapped by FF. getting 2-3 oversee'rs (and making sure their behind your army so he can't snipe them  ). Also infestors with fungel + neural parasite would be very helpful as well in stopping stalker blinking, dt being revealed and neural'ing the colossi. Would be a great unit composition vs this ^^ | ||
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UnitedKronos
139 Posts
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Dubpace
United States251 Posts
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
If I go ling infestor they just 1-shot feedback, it seems the only way to survive is to get burrow before energy and try and do alot of burrow harass before the infestors get more than 90 energy so FB doesn't 1 shot them. Here is 2 replays of me losing to 3 base and 2 base templar tech. (This isn't like they rush it, but they use it to kill my initial lot of infestors). Basically its like losing your first 12 mutalisk, its a huge investment and they just get 1-shotted. + Show Spoiler + | ||
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
I find this up to date, most players reading this probably are not experienced enough as Zerg to execute something like Infestor Baneling, and fast Infestors are really situation-dependant and difficult to write a guide on. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 15 2011 14:10 Dubpace wrote: Have you made any big changes to this guide since it was written or do you still consider this up to date? I did some updates about a month ago. Alot of it I still do today and so do other players. I do plan on editing it out and giving a more refined version of my roach/infestor with some replays within the next week so its "more" up to date. I have a general question about going Crackling infestor (into Broodlord/Hydra/Infestor), How do you deal with 2 base Templar Tech? DTs are easy enough to deal with, but when I base my play around getting 3/3 cracklings and infestors chargelot/archon/HT seems to give me a rainy day. I've actually yet to figure out a solid play that beats 2 base templar tech without doing some sort of Losira all-in. Generally when I go infestors I get energy first then after I've gotten a few (or are on 3 bases or if I find I have excess gas I get NP). I Don't get a third base until I feel safe, which is generally when I have infestors. Sometimes I take a faster 3rd and go roach hydra corruptor, but that seems to lose a lot because hydras are really bad at reapplying pressure, plus if they go storms fast your army basically insta dies. If I go ling infestor they just 1-shot feedback, it seems the only way to survive is to get burrow before energy and try and do alot of burrow harass before the infestors get more than 90 energy so FB doesn't 1 shot them. Here is 2 replays of me losing to 3 base and 2 base templar tech. (This isn't like they rush it, but they use it to kill my initial lot of infestors). Basically its like losing your first 12 mutalisk, its a huge investment and they just get 1-shotted. I am going to say I do not go zergling/infestor. I personally think it sucks if the protoss makes the right unit composition (high templar/zealots with archons is very strong vs this composition). imo roach/infestor is the best vs fast templar. They will need to use the templar feedback which is going to take away a storm normally unless they have 200 energy on their templar. It does suck though when your 6 infestors die instantly to feedback thats so much gas wasted and makes me cry but if you are going to go infestors I would go roach/infestor as roaches are very strong vs chargelots/archons and storms aren't as effective. | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
I almost stopped reading at 15 Hatch but I thought "hey, a replay with cannon rush / zealot rush, will have a look" Boss cannon rush with Gateway first into 8:30 Zealot rush. | ||
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Mayor
United States472 Posts
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