On April 09 2011 09:05 Koshi wrote: @ Blade555555 What happens when protoss stays at 2 bases and push out with that 200/200 stalker/sentry/collosus ball of doom? Ideally with 5-6 hallucinated Void Rays.
Where do you put pressure on your enemy? And if you don't, when do you take your 4th? Or don't you take it? It really comes fast. Like minute 22, and if they pylon block your expansion they can expand faster/same time as you.
Also they tend to come out sometimes and do a little pressure, without losing units but just to let you make units.
Where do you engage the first time? Is it right outside their base? How do you reinforce your army? Is it pure Roach?
Hi, the 2 base 200/200 deathball all in. I haven't faced that in a long time like at least a month in a half now when I was on korea some protoss did it to me on scrap and how I beat it was roach/hydra mass corruptor, having the corrupters focus down the colossi before going after the void rays (even hallucinated).
You should not win this battle unless you do something godlike but as long as your still macroing roach/hydra probably more favorable on roaches then hydra's you should hold. You have to engage him though as far from your base as possible as you want time to get your reinforcements. If you engage him at your natural your reinforcements will probably be too slow to kill the rest of the army and you'll lose.
I would take a 4'th, going roach/hydra/corruptor + upgrades is really gas intensive and normally you might be floating some minerals so no reason not to get a 4'th especially sense your gonna need to remax off roach/hydra.
Engaging the first time is yes as outside their base as possible but not in like a small choke, try to engage him in as open area as you can if possible or at least the best spot you can get. I do reinforce more heavily on roaches but add a few hydra's as well. As of right now it works amazingly for me.
On April 09 2011 14:36 sagefreke wrote: Do you stop Hydra production when you start seeing Collossi?
not really no, but I don't ever make too many hydra's just because of how fast colossi tears them apart. But I do always make sure to have a decent amount they do so good against gateway units
Just an FYI for the person who asked, I got zealot/forge rushed today and beat it very easily. Don't know if he 12 gated just know I held it and he was super far behind and I got an easy win.
Have you considered more aggressive kinds of play? This kind of guide is certainly interesting, but I also feel it's very limitating, regarding zerg possibilities of play, i.e. only describing the most classical macro defensive kind of play... which is in my opinion not the best ! Why not considering more aggressive strats?
On April 09 2011 15:35 Macpo wrote: Have you considered more aggressive kinds of play? This kind of guide is certainly interesting, but I also feel it's very limitating, regarding zerg possibilities of play, i.e. only describing the most classical macro defensive kind of play... which is in my opinion not the best ! Why not considering more aggressive strats?
because aggressive strats if your opponent plays defensive enough wins the game. Thats all it takes is for the protoss to see it and defend and then he wins. I don't like that style of play. I prefer long macro games where normally the better player wins. Aggression is something i'm adding too a point like dropping to harass but not aggression like that. Because if they shut your aggression down all game your going to lose and just not my style ^_^
On April 09 2011 14:36 sagefreke wrote: Do you stop Hydra production when you start seeing Collossi?
not really no, but I don't ever make too many hydra's just because of how fast colossi tears them apart. But I do always make sure to have a decent amount they do so good against gateway units
can you be a bit more specific on what you mean by 'decent amount'? Do you get a certain # (like 8 or 10)? Do you try to get as many hydras as roaches? Do you base your hydra number on how many colossus he has?
On April 09 2011 14:36 sagefreke wrote: Do you stop Hydra production when you start seeing Collossi?
not really no, but I don't ever make too many hydra's just because of how fast colossi tears them apart. But I do always make sure to have a decent amount they do so good against gateway units
can you be a bit more specific on what you mean by 'decent amount'? Do you get a certain # (like 8 or 10)? Do you try to get as many hydras as roaches? Do you base your hydra number on how many colossus he has?
Well I don't know I just make hydra's but I would say I have more roaches then hydra's. I would watch the replays I have that are there, there are at least 6 i believe should give you a general Idea.
I've tried ling bling, roach bling, roach corrupter type strategies but every top zerg I talk to always seems to recommend to just go roach hydra corrupter. So why do you prefer this style to say roach infestor? What do you do on maps with tiny chokes and an easily grabbable third for the toss? Also why are certain top pros complaining about zvp lately? Morrow has a very solid roach hydra corrupter style but he says you can't beat toss in a macro game. Dimaga says the same thing as well. (Though, he's always had iffy zvp).
On April 10 2011 06:51 Warrior Madness wrote: I've tried ling bling, roach bling, roach corrupter type strategies but every top zerg I talk to always seems to recommend to just go roach hydra corrupter. So why do you prefer this style to say roach infestor? What do you do on maps with tiny chokes and an easily grabbable third for the toss? Also why are certain top pros complaining about zvp lately? Morrow has a very solid roach hydra corrupter style but he says you can't beat toss in a macro game. Dimaga says the same thing as well. (Though, he's always had iffy zvp).
Roach/infestor I feel loses to stalker/sentry/immortal. If the toss makes alot of immortals roaches kind of get crushed and while the infestor buff was nice, I don't think its all that great zvp. I think the infestor is better used in zvt/zvz. From alot of zvp's I have seen, whenever I see a zerg go infestor they normally lose. The only time I really ever saw it "work" was Idra vs Huk but huk kept making colossi to the pure roach/infestor and the game disconnected so no idea how it would have gone but think Idra would have won.
I have seen Idra do it on stream and almost lose after getting a big advantage but the toss just went mass immortal/gateway and almost came back and won because roaches just aren't as effective vs quiet a few immortals.
Just from observing lots of zergs try to go roach/infestor if they don't win early/mid and toss is going lots of immortals seems zerg players lose. Of course patch hasn't been out too long so its possible they just don't know what to do exactly yet but as of right now infestors are not my ideal choice in the mu.
For roach/hydra/corruptor the reason I prefer it is its actually pretty strong, especially if you can engage in an open area. Hydra's do great against gateway units, and roaches do good vs gateway units as well while the corruptors take on the colossi. Its also easier to reinforce when you lose your army.
When going ling/baneling if you lose your army and he's countering your reinforcements aren't as strong as if those reinforcements of yours were roach/hydra instead of ling/infestor.
With maps with lots of small chokes, and easy 3rd I have been playing normally but I think what I need to be adding is drop play. Just dropping 4-8 roaches at the main/third and attacking him if he's using all his units to go back to his main to defend.
A lot of pro's find zvp very hard right now is because the toss deathball is really incredibly strong, FF can be very annoying to deal with as if they can FF your ramp your almost going to lose because they normally have 6 sentries full of energy and it seems as if they can FF forever. Also engaging the toss is hard because even if you get a flank from the front and back they can just FF the whole back way and kill your front army so flanks aren't too useful vs them. I mean it really is an incredibly frustrating match up thats for sure just because of how FF is, and how strong toss armies can get especially late game.
I have not really seen too much of morrow/Dimaga's zvp lately the last zvp I saw of morrow was vs MC and sansenith I think? And I feel he lost due to making some silly decisions in his game in the GSL world team, and vs MC he overdroned and lost too 4 gate and can't remember game 1 of that series.
Really hard to say as unfortunately for me I don't have the practice partners they have I don't play vs axlav/white ra or any of those top level protoss players so I don't have as much knowledge of it except for what I personally find frusterating . I wish I could but as of right now I just play toss players on ladder and their not always the most amazing players.
On April 10 2011 06:51 Warrior Madness wrote: I've tried ling bling, roach bling, roach corrupter type strategies but every top zerg I talk to always seems to recommend to just go roach hydra corrupter. So why do you prefer this style to say roach infestor? What do you do on maps with tiny chokes and an easily grabbable third for the toss? Also why are certain top pros complaining about zvp lately? Morrow has a very solid roach hydra corrupter style but he says you can't beat toss in a macro game. Dimaga says the same thing as well. (Though, he's always had iffy zvp).
i think this strategy is strong if you have the superior macro - if you hit 200 supply when the protoss is on 140-150 but later the deathball will kill too much of your units and you will kill too few and the top protoss player just have similar strong macro skills and timings
if you consider july's playstyle that was quite sucessful in last gsl then not all pros are following this path; you should also not exclude your own experience as you might have more sucess with other strategies you used - if a strategy doesnt fit your playstyle you will probably never perform it well enough
Hey blade5555 thanks for the thorough response, I'm going to watch your replays and reread what you wrote. Seems like every zerg is trying out all sorts of different strategies at the moment but roach hydra corrupter still seems to be the most solid. Maybe it'll just be refined over time i.e. more multiprong drop play as you suggested and maybe better roach burrow micro/snipiing the obs so you can burrow micro your units.
hmm, nice guide, very well made, i have one small question, in the VR/collosus/gateway deathball, do you ever bother to tech to broods, because that will ultimately diminish your corruptor count
On April 10 2011 12:02 Geniuszerg wrote: hmm, nice guide, very well made, i have one small question, in the VR/collosus/gateway deathball, do you ever bother to tech to broods, because that will ultimately diminish your corruptor count
Um not really, not unless I kill like all his voidrays then i'll do a broodlord switch with left over corruptors if I have greater spire done.
I don't like the replay where you defend against the cannon rush. Although you held it off, the proper Protoss build for that doesn't get gas (not needed for cannons or zealots and can transition into an expand much more easily) and is more effective if cannons are placed behind minerals where they are unreachable. I still have not found a replay of a Zerg defending that kind of properly executed attack yet.
In any case, good guide from what I've read so far. I will finish reading the rest of it later.
On April 10 2011 16:43 DImported wrote: I don't like the replay where you defend against the cannon rush. Although you held it off, the proper Protoss build for that doesn't get gas (not needed for cannons or zealots and can transition into an expand much more easily) and is more effective if cannons are placed behind minerals where they are unreachable. I still have not found a replay of a Zerg defending that kind of properly executed attack yet.
In any case, good guide from what I've read so far. I will finish reading the rest of it later.
If your talking bout the zealot/cannon rush. I think he scouted me last that game? so he didn't see my hatch first till after he put down his gas, then saw that i hatched first. From what I gather from protoss players i have talked too if they scout you last and want to cannon rush you they have to cancel their assimilator (which still wastes) unless its already done.
But I have held it I just can't find them because the players i play don't all in cannon rush anymore it seems because they realize how dumb it is or Idk why they don't.
On April 10 2011 16:43 DImported wrote: I don't like the replay where you defend against the cannon rush. Although you held it off, the proper Protoss build for that doesn't get gas (not needed for cannons or zealots and can transition into an expand much more easily) and is more effective if cannons are placed behind minerals where they are unreachable. I still have not found a replay of a Zerg defending that kind of properly executed attack yet.
In any case, good guide from what I've read so far. I will finish reading the rest of it later.
If your talking bout the zealot/cannon rush. I think he scouted me last that game? so he didn't see my hatch first till after he put down his gas, then saw that i hatched first. From what I gather from protoss players i have talked too if they scout you last and want to cannon rush you they have to cancel their assimilator (which still wastes) unless its already done.
But I have held it I just can't find them because the players i play don't all in cannon rush anymore it seems because they realize how dumb it is or Idk why they don't.
What about on a 2 player map like xel naga? I've had a lot of trouble against it when I practised with a friend, because the cannons are timed to finish just after a hatch finishes so they can cancel if you cancel. The cannons tend to be only attackable by one or two drones and the zealot makes it so that your lings have to kill it before they can target cannons. Later, they can just transition into a forge expand build, or a +1 attack 4 gate.
On April 10 2011 16:43 DImported wrote: I don't like the replay where you defend against the cannon rush. Although you held it off, the proper Protoss build for that doesn't get gas (not needed for cannons or zealots and can transition into an expand much more easily) and is more effective if cannons are placed behind minerals where they are unreachable. I still have not found a replay of a Zerg defending that kind of properly executed attack yet.
In any case, good guide from what I've read so far. I will finish reading the rest of it later.
If your talking bout the zealot/cannon rush. I think he scouted me last that game? so he didn't see my hatch first till after he put down his gas, then saw that i hatched first. From what I gather from protoss players i have talked too if they scout you last and want to cannon rush you they have to cancel their assimilator (which still wastes) unless its already done.
But I have held it I just can't find them because the players i play don't all in cannon rush anymore it seems because they realize how dumb it is or Idk why they don't.
What about on a 2 player map like xel naga? I've had a lot of trouble against it when I practised with a friend, because the cannons are timed to finish just after a hatch finishes so they can cancel if you cancel. The cannons tend to be only attackable by one or two drones and the zealot makes it so that your lings have to kill it before they can target cannons. Later, they can just transition into a forge expand build, or a +1 attack 4 gate.
well xelnaga I don't think I ever can hatch first on there as they always block it. Your best bet on holding cannon rushes where they try to abuse it to where they put the cannon in a location where only 1-2 drones can hit it is when you see his pylon warping in (which your overlord should be over it so you see it) you should pull drones of course, and have 1 drone holding position on that spot so that he can't place it there. Thats what I do when I see possible locations to where that cannon will probably go up due to low surround area. Thats your best bet anyway.
If his cannon rush succeeds, your going to lose unless he is kind to let you win or has no idea what to do when zergs don't leave when you've got it.
I recommend getting a protoss practice partner, and on maps you feel cannon rushing is almost impossible to hold practice it over and over, seeing how many drones you can pull to hold it off, and what spots to put a drone to hold position so he can't place one there.
On April 10 2011 16:43 DImported wrote: I don't like the replay where you defend against the cannon rush. Although you held it off, the proper Protoss build for that doesn't get gas (not needed for cannons or zealots and can transition into an expand much more easily) and is more effective if cannons are placed behind minerals where they are unreachable. I still have not found a replay of a Zerg defending that kind of properly executed attack yet.
In any case, good guide from what I've read so far. I will finish reading the rest of it later.
If your talking bout the zealot/cannon rush. I think he scouted me last that game? so he didn't see my hatch first till after he put down his gas, then saw that i hatched first. From what I gather from protoss players i have talked too if they scout you last and want to cannon rush you they have to cancel their assimilator (which still wastes) unless its already done.
But I have held it I just can't find them because the players i play don't all in cannon rush anymore it seems because they realize how dumb it is or Idk why they don't.
What about on a 2 player map like xel naga? I've had a lot of trouble against it when I practised with a friend, because the cannons are timed to finish just after a hatch finishes so they can cancel if you cancel. The cannons tend to be only attackable by one or two drones and the zealot makes it so that your lings have to kill it before they can target cannons. Later, they can just transition into a forge expand build, or a +1 attack 4 gate.
well xelnaga I don't think I ever can hatch first on there as they always block it. Your best bet on holding cannon rushes where they try to abuse it to where they put the cannon in a location where only 1-2 drones can hit it is when you see his pylon warping in (which your overlord should be over it so you see it) you should pull drones of course, and have 1 drone holding position on that spot so that he can't place it there. Thats what I do when I see possible locations to where that cannon will probably go up due to low surround area. Thats your best bet anyway.
If his cannon rush succeeds, your going to lose unless he is kind to let you win or has no idea what to do when zergs don't leave when you've got it.
I recommend getting a protoss practice partner, and on maps you feel cannon rushing is almost impossible to hold practice it over and over, seeing how many drones you can pull to hold it off, and what spots to put a drone to hold position so he can't place one there.
Yup, I'll keep practising with my friend. If you happen to find any replays of you defending this, can you please upload it? I would be really glad to see a zerg hold it off.
Yup of course, just rare for me to get cannon rushed now of days unlike a few months ago but just can't seem to find the replays I do apologize for that :/
EPT
. I wish I could but as of right now I just play toss players on ladder and their not always the most amazing players.
