EPT[G]Zerg vs Protoss - Page 2
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
Do you have more replays of defending this type of rush? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 08 2011 17:27 samuraibael wrote: The replay you included with the cannon rush is on tal darim. One of the easiest maps to get surface area on the cannons. Despite this you were like 5 seconds away from 2 cannons completing with no lings out, if he had placed a 4th cannon instead of a pointless pylon youd have lost the hatch. Do you have more replays of defending this type of rush? I'll try to find more, I know I have them just didn't look want to keep looking haha ^_^ | ||
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ZergGrandma
5 Posts
On April 08 2011 17:07 blade55555 wrote: Have a drone follow the probe thats the solution to that problem and then hold position I should add that to the guide, thanks for the post so i can add that forgot about that ^_^ You're welcome. Note that you'll have to send 1 drone for scouting and 1 drone to prevent pylon block and this is loss of minerals not really significant but... Anyway seem my skill doesn't allow me to execute this build properly as just yesterday I lost 4 games subsequently with different cannon rushes.  | ||
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Airact
Finland366 Posts
On April 08 2011 19:25 ZergGrandma wrote: You're welcome. Note that you'll have to send 1 drone for scouting and 1 drone to prevent pylon block and this is loss of minerals not really significant but... Anyway seem my skill doesn't allow me to execute this build properly as just yesterday I lost 4 games subsequently with different cannon rushes. Regarding Cannon Rushes What I tend to do against Cannon rushes/Pylon walls is to cancel the 15hatch if I'm not sure I can defend the cannons, remake the hatch at my opponents natural, cancel it and make an Evolution chamber on the creep. I also do this if somebody randomly blocks my wall without me going 15hatch as I have a scout drone to do that with. The Protoss is usually either All-Ining with the Cannon rush or more commonly trying to secure his expansion before yours because you are blocked. He has a Forge and maybe a Gateway but not more than that so his tech sucks if you manage to block his expo. Of course you are going to be a bit behind because you can't keep up the production with only one hatchery, which goes to something that breaks the contain, but the money goes elsewhere like teching. This is also related to a question from me regarding the same topic: Is this good to do? A question about Expand -> Robotics I'd also like to ask that what do you do when you see 3gate Expand into Robotics Facility? Or Forge Expand -> Robo if it's any different or even used. I'm always very hesitant to do anything when I see this because it's so safe and can transition into pretty much everything. I usually make units because I'm pretty much scared and lose because of me not having Drones. For example against Stargate after expand I'm like "Yeah I know what's up". Same with 5/6gate or fast Twilight Council. I pretty much mass drone against Stargate and go Burrow v. 6gate/DT/Blink if that matters. With Robo I'm just like "wtf" and go into sort of a panic(read: Make units and push... And most of the time lose because my timing was off.) Myself, with a couple practice partners of mine were thinking about going Spire when I see the 'fast' Robotics, make a bunch of Mutas, transition elsewhere and use the Spire for Corruptors if/when needed. Is there anything specific that Zerg should do against Expand -> Robotics or should I just continue scouting and go with that? | ||
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Alou
United States3748 Posts
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Juice303
United States42 Posts
I will have to d/l the replays and look. but what is your standard response to forge/nexus or any FE builds? Do you delay lair/gas slightly to keep up on econ? maps like shakuras, tal altar. | ||
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Shiwoo
United States25 Posts
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
the question is still why would you drag a game into a mass expansion game when the protoss army gets stronger by every minute? | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
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goswser
United States3546 Posts
I've tried broodlords, and ultralisks, but ultras get raped because the blink stalkers keep blinking away before dying, and even with 3/3/3 and the armor upgrade my ultras die so fast. When I go broodlords I feel like I have not enough units ever in the lategame, and usually end up losing 3-4 maxed out armies of various composition, then running out of money and gging out. Any suggestions on how to beat protoss players who rely on heavy upgrades and exclusively blink stalker + collosi? | ||
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 08 2011 19:25 ZergGrandma wrote: You're welcome. Note that you'll have to send 1 drone for scouting and 1 drone to prevent pylon block and this is loss of minerals not really significant but... Anyway seem my skill doesn't allow me to execute this build properly as just yesterday I lost 4 games subsequently with different cannon rushes. What I highly recommend is grab a protoss practice partner and have him cannon rush the shit out of you till you get good at holding it. Thats what I did anyway played like 10+ games to make sure I knew how many drones I had to pull off to hold it off. Regarding Cannon Rushes What I tend to do against Cannon rushes/Pylon walls is to cancel the 15hatch if I'm not sure I can defend the cannons, remake the hatch at my opponents natural, cancel it and make an Evolution chamber on the creep. I also do this if somebody randomly blocks my wall without me going 15hatch as I have a scout drone to do that with. The Protoss is usually either All-Ining with the Cannon rush or more commonly trying to secure his expansion before yours because you are blocked. He has a Forge and maybe a Gateway but not more than that so his tech sucks if you manage to block his expo. Of course you are going to be a bit behind because you can't keep up the production with only one hatchery, which goes to something that breaks the contain, but the money goes elsewhere like teching. This is also related to a question from me regarding the same topic: Is this good to do? In my opinion if the cannon rush succeeds and you have to cancel your hatchery and they block your ramp I feel its almost unwinnable unless the protoss is just bad and has no idea what to do if his opponent doesn't leave the game when it succeeds. Your hatchery cancel into evo chamber I don't see how its bad to do as honestly your already behind and probably going to lose this only gives you I would imagine a little bit better of a chance to come back as he can't take his expo for a little bit as normally if he does a hardcore cannon rush his gateway is very delayed. A question about Expand -> Robotics I'd also like to ask that what do you do when you see 3gate Expand into Robotics Facility? Or Forge Expand -> Robo if it's any different or even used. I'm always very hesitant to do anything when I see this because it's so safe and can transition into pretty much everything. I usually make units because I'm pretty much scared and lose because of me not having Drones. For example against Stargate after expand I'm like "Yeah I know what's up". Same with 5/6gate or fast Twilight Council. I pretty much mass drone against Stargate and go Burrow v. 6gate/DT/Blink if that matters. With Robo I'm just like "wtf" and go into sort of a panic(read: Make units and push... And most of the time lose because my timing was off.) Myself, with a couple practice partners of mine were thinking about going Spire when I see the 'fast' Robotics, make a bunch of Mutas, transition elsewhere and use the Spire for Corruptors if/when needed. Is there anything specific that Zerg should do against Expand -> Robotics or should I just continue scouting and go with that? For the robo if they do 3 gate robo, I just go the usual roach/hydra. If he's trying to go super fast colossi he won't have enough gateway units, and if he's going immortals well Hydra do very well against that. I do recommend to keep scouting him though with speed overlords and everything to watch when he starts colossi production and adds more gateways. I wouldn't freak out too much about drone production, I almost always tend to put at least 1 spine down just because protoss can do an attack at any time and spine crawlers even 1 scares them especially if they can't see your army they normally pull back. this build is pool first or am I just illiterate? 15 pool 16 hatch is my favorite opening on a any 4 player map(ZvP). Will normally always send two drones to the natural to try and kill the probe outright or force him out of the block area and ninja the hatch. I will have to d/l the replays and look. but what is your standard response to forge/nexus or any FE builds? Do you delay lair/gas slightly to keep up on econ? maps like shakuras, tal altar. This is both 15 pool/15 hatch. 2 different builds but overall the same game plan just slight different openings that I do. If your forced to 15 pool and can't hatch first and he nexus's first and has a forge or even if I do get my hatch down first I drone super hard and delay lair a little bit. There's no need to go fast lair or make a ton of units as you know he won't be attacking any time soon. You can probably get a fast third but I still don't know if they decide to do a 5-6 gate all in if you can hold even with burrow roaches against it. But I imagine it would be fine especially if you have 2-3 spine crawlers. Hey blade. I am wondering what You do if you can't get a 15 hatch down, as some people said most P block the expansion with a probe. Most of the time, I get blocked and so I'm forced to throw down pool/gas at 14/15 food. By the time my exp down (20food) there is no way to put spines down in time for the first wave of units. I will post a replay if you would like. Thanks. If you see he's blocking your hatch just throw down a 15 pool, delay your gas you really don't need speedlings that badly. If you think he's going to 4 gate (by scouting or something gives it away) throw down 2 spines at your main and transfer them over. Also I do have the build for my 15 pool in the OP, and the roach warren timing is great you'll get roaches out and everything before his units can get to your natural. the question is still why would you drag a game into a mass expansion game when the protoss army gets stronger by every minute? Because its almost near impossible to engage a protoss if they do not want to engage your army (FF/small chokes make it suicide). A thing I am trying to start experimenting with is getting drop tech and start harassing them with my main army while dropping 4-8 roaches in their main or something to cause damage. I should start doing this but keep forgetting to mess with it due to me being a robot sometimes :D Hi, I am a zerg with about 730 right now, used to be higher this season. I've been having trouble with lategame protoss armies that you wouldn't typically consider deathballs, which consist almost excusively of blink stalkers and about 5 collosi. It seems that regardless of what I make I just don't have a large enough army to kill this, I usually have ~10 corrupters, 70 drones, 6 bases (a few mined out), and am maxed on hydra/roach but get obliterated, occasionally I can't even kill the collosi. I've tried broodlords, and ultralisks, but ultras get raped because the blink stalkers keep blinking away before dying, and even with 3/3/3 and the armor upgrade my ultras die so fast. When I go broodlords I feel like I have not enough units ever in the lategame, and usually end up losing 3-4 maxed out armies of various composition, then running out of money and gging out. Any suggestions on how to beat protoss players who rely on heavy upgrades and exclusively blink stalker + collosi? Your best bet vs this is roach/hydra, and I would make more then 10 corruptors tbh. 5 Colossi just tear through your army so fast. I would recommend probably at least 15 corruptors, keeping up on upgrades, and dont' engage at your natural! Try to engage him near his base so you have time to get reinforcements. The key thing is to always be macroing during the battle. Make sure your already remaking units the second you start engaging because you should be able to take out the colossi, + alot of his ground army and if he does a counter your reinforcements will kill it. Don't go Ultra's vs Toss honestly their a joke due to immortals/blink and the new fungel doesn't stun them very long so it makes them even more useless. Also try not to go Broodlords too fast. Broodlords are a great late game army addition but if your trying to get them before engaging him once its kinda hard as normally his colossi count is pretty high you want to try to engage him at least once before making some broodlords at least in my experiance thats how I have done it most of the time. I think I may have a replay of me vs nydgmma or something where he goes almost pure stalker/colossi on shakuras plateau. But i can't remember if he also added a void ray or 2 but was mostly stalker/colossi. | ||
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
A quick question though: you mention a roach/ling/spine for a 4 gate defense, and against blink stalkers you go pure ling/spine. (I don't know if the guide says this, but I watched the replays.) My style of defending 4 gates skips roaches in favor of more lings/spines, similar to a blink stalker defense. Do you believe the roaches are necessary for an optimal 4 gate hold? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 09 2011 07:24 Indrium wrote: An excellent, well articulated guide. Thank you. This is basically what I do as well, so I can vouch for its effectiveness, but there are definitely some tips in there that I had not considered and will do so from now on. A quick question though: you mention a roach/ling/spine for a 4 gate defense, and against blink stalkers you go pure ling/spine. (I don't know if the guide says this, but I watched the replays.) My style of defending 4 gates skips roaches in favor of more lings/spines, similar to a blink stalker defense. Do you believe the roaches are necessary for an optimal 4 gate hold? Um maybe not I don't like pure speedling builds (the one I do that in is on scrap station and thats because I knew for 100% fact he was doing a blink stalker build saw the twilight council) so thats why i build pure speedlings and 2 spines there. I think roaches are huge in defending as its less larva so if you droned a little to much its no big deal due to how good roaches are when you get a good mass vs 4 gate and with 2 spines + some lings helps alot. Just personal preference though I know you can do it with just ling/spine. | ||
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IPS.Mardow.
Germany713 Posts
nice guide, man  | ||
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
On April 09 2011 07:27 blade55555 wrote: Um maybe not I don't like pure speedling builds (the one I do that in is on scrap station and thats because I knew for 100% fact he was doing a blink stalker build saw the twilight council) so thats why i build pure speedlings and 2 spines there. I think roaches are huge in defending as its less larva so if you droned a little to much its no big deal due to how good roaches are when you get a good mass vs 4 gate and with 2 spines + some lings helps alot. Just personal preference though I know you can do it with just ling/spine. Hmm, alright. Thanks for the input, man. Looking forward to the ZVT guide. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 09 2011 08:49 Indrium wrote: Hmm, alright. Thanks for the input, man. Looking forward to the ZVT guide. Always glad to help I know how frustrating it can be too play zerg at times and what I have been doing has been working very very well for me lately so decided to make a guide for zvz first, got great feedback, this one, and will do a zvt one in the near future .Also to note I will be uploading more replays later tonight due to requests of a few more cannon rushes and all that thanks again guys for the feedback! blade! <3 nice guide, man coming from you mardow thats a great compliment thanks <3. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
Where do you put pressure on your enemy? And if you don't, when do you take your 4th? Or don't you take it? It really comes fast. Like minute 22, and if they pylon block your expansion they can expand faster/same time as you. Also they tend to come out sometimes and do a little pressure, without losing units but just to let you make units. Where do you engage the first time? Is it right outside their base? How do you reinforce your army? Is it pure Roach? | ||
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