The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread

Teoita wroteYou can still have good enough scouting info and reads on a Terran with 13 scout on most reasonable maps. Additionally, with HotS it's possible to scout more effectively with the msc and stalker pokes, as well as with hallucinations, while the range of Terran builds is slightly reduced compared to WoL.

rsvp wrote:
You're not way behind if you just play standard, especially if you plant your nexus down before any gateway units. An aggressive build like unscouted proxy oracles can be deadly however.

TheDwf wrote:
Not necessarily, but it generally does mean some kind of fast expand.

TheDwf wrote:
Slightly delayed Barracks/gas(es)/Bunker, wounded or dead SCV limiting rescouting/forcing another scouting SCV to check if Protoss did expand (else you risk losing to some delayed 4g or even 4g prism).

Teoita wrote:
Other than making sure it doesn't happen, getting a zealot out always helps. You more or less just have to accept your nexus will be delayed, but the terran will have invested 100 minerals into it. There really isn't much to it or an optimal response, it's just an annoying thing to have happen.

Teoita wrote:
The key to holding off this rush is having precise Stalker micro, getting shots off on the Marines and SCVs as they cross the map while staying out of Marine range. Once the fighting starts at your base, it's important to keep bunkers from being completed, focusing building scv's with chronoboosted Stalkers and pulling probes if necessary. The addition of the MSC makes holding these much easier as you only need to buy enough time for Photon Overcharge and then you're safe.

Teoita wrote:
Thanks to the MSC it's possible to be greedier in the early game, compared to WoL. The most standard build gets a Nexus out at around 21 supply without any units, then a msc and warpgate, then a tech building

Teoita wrote:
Poke his front with 1-2 stalkers and a msc. You can also send the msc in the back while poking the front with the stalker. The more likely openers in hots are:
1) Gassless expand. You should see a bunker on the low ground and possible a cc ready to lift (or already on the low ground), as well as later (or no) gasses and marines only.
2) Reaper expand. You should see the reaper in the middle of the map, marines only and a cc just like against 1rax fe. Your stalker will always be in time to defend the initial reaper, and in this case you can also get a second one while the first pokes around the map. Note that a reaper expand can still go into a widow mine drop.
3) Reactor rax/fact/cc. A very safe opening, this can be either a very defensive play thanks to a high marine count and widow mines or a relatively slow widow mine drop (hitting a bit before the 8 minute mark on most maps)
4) Fast 1-1-1 with no reactors and widow mine production. Likely to be a very fast widow mine drop, hitting before the 7 minute mark. Other older builds like cloak banshee or hellion drops are also possible but far less popular.

SC2John wrote:
If you scout on 13 after gateway, your probe will always make it into the Terran main before the standard walloff is complete. Using this scout, you can check the gas and the timing of it based on how much gas has been mined. A followup stalker poke can help to fully identify what your opponent's followup is.

Teoita wrote:
I try to return with my probe when i know there should be a low ground CC started, and only one Marine.

His first Marine should pop out at about 3:07, while the second should be done at 3:32. A reaper will be done at 3:27, and a marine after this at 3:52. Poking in between those two timings should show you wether there's a low ground cc, and most importantly whether he's starting and add-on on his rax.

If you can't find anything with your probe, poke with your first units and the msc to get more info (regarding the specific info you are looking for, see the previous question in the thread).

Teoita wrote:
Marauders; once they are down cleaning up the marines is really simple.

Alejandrisha wrote:

Based on what you saw in the early game, you will be looking for the following things:

CC spotted

The things to look for are: Non standard play → 3rd CC → 2 ebay → 1 or 2 tech labs

If you see a 3rd CC, you’re free to take a 3rd. If there is no 3rd CC but double upgrades, taking your 3rd is a tough call because 2 base Terran with 2/2 and a 2nd starport will crush you if you are defending with Colossus. If there is just 1 ebay, look for the additional rax, as Terran will most likely go up to 5 rax and 1 starport from here. Terran will usually just get the 1 tech lab for upgrades with their medivac timing. If they get a second one, consider adding an additional Immortal.

Non standadrd play refers to tech labs on factories or ports. Immortal/Colossus/Achon/Stalker does well against these compositions because your army is too mobile to grant Terran a free siege-up so you can get a strong composition in time. Immortals are obvoiusly great against Tanks and Thors, and Storm (if you can get it in time) is extremely powerful as well as there will be less Medivacs and the Marines will not be well upgraded.

No CC spotted

If your probe scout doesn’t see a CC, but sees a bunker, you need to confirm it with a gateway unit poke. The number of Marines in the bunker can be indicative of whether or not the barracks is being used for Marine production (per standard FE) or building addons. A good time to keep in your head is 3:07, when the first Marine pops from a 12 barracks. Every 30 seconds from here should mean 1 more Marine in that bunker.

If there is no CC on the low ground, the Terran is most likely opening Factory. Your first observer needs to see what and where the addons are. If you see a port, but no tech labs on the factory, look for a 2nd port or a CC. Of course if he is opening with some kind of tech, react by positioning your units accordingly to defend his incoming harassment.

rsvp wrote:
I haven't had much problems facing early widow mines going 1 gate FE. I like to get mostly stalkers out of my first gateway (no sentries), and immediately go for a robo for an early obs. An early MSC to make sure you have enough energy for a photon overcharge when the attack hits helps a lot as well.

The widow mine attack in this replay probably comes a bit later than what you're talking about, but as you can see I'm prepared with MSC and obs + stalkers a long time before the attack hits anyway. Just make sure to micro your stalkers carefully against widow mines (don't attack move into them even with detection, always target fire them otherwise your stalkers will just run into their range before the AI realizes it has a target).
http://drop.sc/313924

Teoita wrote:
Stargate openers can be incredibly powerful if the Terrans are caught offguard. Particularly, an Oracle can be game ending if the Terran's AA isn't in position, for example if he his trying a Marine/Widow Mine push. Also, a small group of Oracles can deal extremely well with marines before stim and medivacs are ready, making Oracle/gateway timings very powerful. With the strength of the new medivacs, Phoenixes can be very useful in protecting your base from drops too. On the other hand, Stargate tech is still a huge investment and you need to make sure you get a good return out of your investment. Many people like to proxy their stargate when going oracle; this makes it more likely that you will do damage as you will hit much faster than normal.

Teoita wrote:
Against any terran one base all-in, the most common and popular way to hold is to do some sort of One-gate Expand into four or five gates plus a robo with immortals for defense. It's extremely hard to tech up against one-basing terrans and if you do the only viable choice is to go colossus, to deal with any delayed all-in that waits for too many marines for your gateway units to handle alone.

That advice is generally regarding 1-1-1, but it also works against bio all-ins which are actually very weak.

The addition of the MSC means terran one base all-ins are weaker and much easier to defend than in WoL.

kcdc wrote:
The answer is still good FF's and gateway units. You'll also need to do some zealot/stalker micro using zealots to tank, stalkers to focus fire, and keep reinforcing. Terran winds up doing a lot of damage stimming himself to death too.

The addition of the MSC means Terran one base all-ins are weaker and much easier to defend than in WoL.

monk wrote:

First let's talk about the specifics about the push; this push can hit any time after 9:30 depending on the map and how greedy the Terran was in his build off 1rax FE, or between 11 and 12 minutes if the Terran opened with a fast fact build. Make sure you check your opponent's add-ons. Two reactors and one tech lab on his barracks is indicative of this classic marine-heavy build while two tech labs and one reactor on barracks is something slightly different, a push that usually won't be as strong but has other advantages. With the marine heavy build, the first wave usually consists of 2 medivacs, 2-3 maraurders, and about 25 marines with constant reinforcements. There are two key points to defending the standard 2 medivac push.

1. Being able to directly fight off the initial army
   Of course the first thing you have to worry about is being able to survive if the Terran a-moves up your ramp. In order to survive you need either a certain amount of gateway units or a certain type of tech. Let's look at some popular PvT builds to get some ideas:
   
   • Fast colossi build: This build gets one colossus by the time the Terran push can hit. This colossus is especially effective, because your opponent's push will be extremely marine heavy. But even though a frontal push won't work against this type of build, colossi builds are particularly susceptible to drops, so you have to especially worry about those.
     
   • 2ase templar Templar build: This build relies on a large amount of gateway units along with one archon to hold off this push. The archon provides essential splash damage and is often targeted down. Another thing to take away from the Startale build is the timing of the addition of gateways. Instead of a traditional 3->6 addition, the Startale build goes from 3->5->7. With this order, the 4th and 5th gateways finish just in time to defend the push.
     
   • Rain templar build: This build gets up charge and 2 feedbacks before the push can hit. With a large amount of chargelots and good forcefields, this push can also be stopped.
     
   • Fast templar builds: These are uncommon, but it's possible to use templar, in combination with gateway units, in order to stop these marine-heavy pushes.
   
   So in summary, you need either: a large gateway force, a colossi, chargelots, or templar with storm. Good control is always required as the marine do damage so fast that one mistake could easily cost you the game.
   With the addition of the faster medivacs and msc, holding off frontal attacks is easier but defending drops is harder. Keep this in mind and reposition your units accordingly.
   
   
2. Being able to defend the initial drops
   
   • The most common way to stop drops in the early game is with a six stalker force sitting in your main while your main army rests in your natural. Six stalkers is the magic number that will allow you to two-shot a medivac force. The problem with using stalkers to defend drops, however, is that if a drop does land in your main, you'll have a hard time removing it from your base. Blink is valuable addition and can net you medivac kills you normally wouldn't be able to get, but sometimes it is out of the way to research.
     
   • Generally, your other option to deal with initial drops is with chargelots; this is the tactic employed with the Rain templar build. Chargelots are great at stopping drops once they're on the ground, but they have trouble with doom drops if you didn't split your army properly.
   
   As always, vision is essential to stopping drops, so get observers in key places. Also keep in mind that when you're defending drops with units in your main, your army in your natural will be weaker. A high level Protoss should be able to tell how many medivacs and bio units a Terran should have at any given time, so if he spots the Terran army, he'll know how many rouge drops are on the map. He can then split his army accordingly.

Teoita wrote:
For having idle gateways and getting units when you need to and tech/infrastructure when you can, i suggest looking at this thread (yay for self promotion) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=364130; i talk a bit about how production was strucutred with wol macro pvt builds and why you wanted your buildings/gateways at specific timings. This is for 2base play, but 3base is similar. If you note, old 3nex builds would cut units and ramp up to 8-9 gates worth of producion, getting a huge spike in production when a standard medivac timing used to hit. Note that this is slightly outdated with newer HotS builds for a variety of reasons.

Teoita wrote:
It's a stylistic choices, both have their pros and cons. Templar allow free time on your robo to invest in warp prisms or observers (therefore, giving more map control), as well as being stronger defensively (it's hard to push into an expand fortified by storm). Colossi on the other hand are a bit easier to micro and offer more offensive capability, but less harassment and map control while being a little more vulnerable to 3base pushes with or without scv's.

kcdc wrote:
Beyond the obvious (make observers, control watch towers), keeping your army moving helps. When you're moving your army, you'll naturally be thinking about where he is and without even realizing, you'll be making decisions about how to better keep tabs on his movements. If you watch pro games, you'll see their armies are constantly shuffling back and forth even when it seems like it's just wasted clicks.

And if your problem is not map vision but rather actually noticing what's going on in your minimap, I'd suggest using windowed mode and making the game window small. My monitor is simply too big and too close to my chair (shallow desk) for me to see my minimap well with my peripheral vision. The smaller window keeps the minimap close to the center of my focus all the time. It wound up making a huge difference in my minimap awareness, and it game me a small APM and click accuracy boost too (didn't have to move the mouse pointer as far on the screen).

Teoita wrote:
Either 4+ with range, two with range, or one with no range.

One with no range to hold medivac pushes is pretty much a two base templar build (you get your twilight council when +1 armor is halfway done, then start charge/+2/Archives and take a third).

4+ colossus builds used to cut at three and were getting less common in the pro scene due to the 2/2 viking timing, as it can hit before storm even completes if done well. Additionally, these builds commonly had to get blink before charge, further weakening the armies' straight up combat capabilities. Because of this, many players started going full-on colossus, going up to 4 or 5 colossi while teching to storm to strengthen their army against such an attack.

2 Colossus builds offer a best of both worlds type scenario: you still force vikings and have the bruteforce strength of ranged colossi, but you can go templar tech off 2base and will have a fast charge, which means holding viking timings is easier. These however are more vulnerable to the faster scv-based all-ins.

monk wrote:
The key is vision. That is, observers, spotting pylons, and watch towers. The obvious benefit of this is that you can spot drops incoming. However, if you have vision of his army, you can correctly position your troops to accordingly defend both his army and any potential drops. For example, if you see his army far away from your base, you don’t need to keep your entire army at your front. Instead, put it in probable drop locations.

Another option is pressure. A believable fake allin will sometimes keep your opponent contained in his base. He will be afraid to send anymore than 1 medivac out to harass, which is a manageable amount.

Notice how I didn’t mention anything about units. Blink stalkers, chargelots, templar(with or without storm), and dts all do fairly well versus drops and almost any unit composition you go will be able to defend against drops.

Teoita wrote:
You need to invest more in your drop defense compared to WoL. Instead of a small group of stalkers you will need about 8-9 gateway units in your main, as well as a MSC in position to Purify. As usual, vision is key, so make sure you stay on top of your scouting with observers.

I personally recommend getting 3-4 observers and leaving them in key locations to keep tabs on wha tthe Terran is doing. When you take your third, add 1-2 cannons to vulnerable spots (such as your main). A great game to study drop defense is Rain vs JJakjj at MLG.

rsvp wrote:
My 2 suggestions:

1) Go for builds with fast double forge upgrades, so you don't have to take your 3rd that fast. Economy isn't the only way to get ahead in the game, you can fight at an economic disadvantage if you have the superior tech and upgrades.

2) Make a lot of observers, like at least 3. If the terran kills one, replace it asap and prioritize maintaining that obs count versus making more colossus. Use them to track terran movements, or at least see how he is splitting his army. Even partial information is great - for example, if you spot an army moving towards your 3rd but it looks kinda small, then you can probably guess there's a medivac army heading towards your main at the same time even if you don't see it. Then split your army, and you'll be fine.

rsvp wrote:
My personal favorite response to any sort of mech play is to go heavy robo (both immortals and colossus). As soon as I scout multiple factories I'll add a 2nd robo, if we're both on 3 bases I'll even add a 3rd robo. It's effective against pretty much any ground based mech combination. Vikings can sometimes be a problem but you'll have stalkers to fight them, and even if vikings end up killing all your colossi hopefully by then your colossi have already killed what they needed to kill (marines, hellbat/hellions).

Air can work as well, but like you said, it's just not as versatile of a counter. If the terran goes heavy on vikings with their mech (or is doing some sort of 2base marine heavy+tech timing, which can arguably considered mech), that can really screw you up. Same thing for fighting terran air, I don't like going phoenix - instead I use blink + storm. However, if it ever gets to late game and he has huge tank lines, then at some point you'll have to switch to air and use carriers or something.

In this game the terran goes marine + tank into banshee/viking/raven, by the time he switches to air I'm way ahead but I would still use the same response and unit compositions in a more even game.
http://drop.sc/313925

SC2John wrote:
There are several different ways to play against mech, and the one I dislike the most is counter-turtling and getting tempest/cannon. Personally, the best solution I've found is going double robo, taking a fairly quick 3rd (~8:00-9:00), and pressuring with a small army of 2 colossus/4 immortals/handful of gateway units while taking a 4th. In conjunction with a warp prism, your small army should make it very hard for the mech player to take a 4th. Behind this, start a void ray switch (while continuing immortal production). At ~8 void rays/8 immortals/2 colossus/several chargelots, you can pretty much amove into the Terran army ftw.

Opening blink/immortal and pressuring on two different fronts is also quite good against mech, but much heavier on the multi-tasking.

Teoita wrote:
You generally need a 3base economy to get both Colossi and High Templar.
With a Colossus opening, you will usually get 3+ Colossi, blink and a decent stalker count (10 or so), before reseaching Charge and starting a Templar Archives.
With a Templar opening (including getting a single colossus without range and then going for Templar tech on two bases), the timing is less set in stone and it comes down to the preference of the players. A good general idea is to aim at having a good High Templar count (about 6-7 spread between your 3 bases) to be able to defend while investing into a support bay and a second robo.

Teoita wrote:
kcdc wrote an excellent guide on lategame PvT:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370106.

In HotS, your ultimate army also includes ~5-6 tempests to force engagements and kill stray vikings or ghosts.

rsvp wrote:
I'm really glad you wrote this guide. As you noted, many commentators and players alike focus too much on build orders and timings, which become completely irrelevant when you get to mid-late game. The "management" part of mid-late game is so crucial, but often ignored. I'd like to add some additional tips I utilize among your 4 pillars:

Map vision: Observers. Make them. A lot of them. If you're a player who typically only makes 1-2 observers each game, and doesn't bother to remake them after the terran scans and kills them, try making 3-4. I regularly chrono out 3 observers every game as my first 3 robotics units. And then when I lose them, I prioritize remaking them over colossus. Put them along attack routes, drop routes, everywhere. The game will become so much easier for you when you have a virtual maphack.

Mobility: In addition to pylons all over the map, get in the habit of overmaking gateways so that you can instantly create an army anywhere on the map. This can also help you set up some nice flanks, or allow you to just drop 20 zealots into his main and wipe out his production (barracks/depots) even when it's mined out and you can't do any economic damage.

Also, I want to stress kcdc's point about multiple battles at once. Anytime you're about to attack, or an engagement is about to occur, you should be warping in zealots/dts somewhere else on the map, whether it's next to a pylon near his 3rd/4th, or via a warp prism into his main. It literally only takes 1 second, but has the potential to do so much damage - shift clickclickclickclick, then drag select and shift click into the mineral line.

Positioning: This is difficult especially in the heat of battle, but it's extremely important. As your armies are dancing around each other, keep your stalkers and colossus near each other, and zealots separately so that zealots don't get in the way of stalkers chasing vikings and stalkers don't get in the way of zealots charging into the terran army. Always know where the enemy vikings are, and position stalkers in between your colossus and the vikings. Keep your colossus away from cliffs and water where it's more difficult for stalkers to protect them. This means that when you're walking between your natural and 3rd on daybreak or cloud kingdom, make sure they're not hugging the cliff/edge of the path. When your armies engage, DON'T immediately engage with your zealots. Wait for the MMM ball to get in range of your colossus before engaging with zealots. The terran wants to kite your zealots while being out of range of your colossus, and if you just a-move your zealots into the terran and forget about them, the terran will end up killing all your zealots while avoiding colossus fire while your colossus are dying to vikings. If terran runs out of range of your colossus, PULL your zealots back and wait for him to get in range of your colossus again before engaging with zealots again. Meanwhile, always target fire vikings with your stalkers and don't let them just a-move. So pretty much when the engagement happens you want to quickly shift-click target a bunch of vikings with your stalkers, a-move with the colossus, and then focus on controlling/dancing your zealots with the MMM ball. Use blink to reposition your stalkers so that they're not in the way of your zealots and/or so that they're not directly being killed by MMM.

Another note, when the terran gets a million ghosts and you can't land any storms, you should be colossus heavy (4-6+ colossus), and focus on storming the vikings. You'll never get a storm off the main MMM ball, but it's much easier to get storms off the vikings and they will actually die pretty quickly (especially if you also have archons) and then at least you'll still have colossus against MMM.

Space control: HT all over the map. You never want more than 3-4 templar in a single group, because it just takes too much effort to keep re-spreading them out. A lot of times in late game I don't even have any templar hotkeyed. Everytime the terran pushes forward, he should have to go through 1 templar at a time, eating storms or feedbacks if he's not careful. If he is careful, you only lose 1 HT at a time. Be active with your group of blink stalkers so you can snipe ghosts who stray too far forward to snipe your HT, or small groups of MM that try to snipe your HT.

Also related, while it's not about space control but rather how to use HT, always try to "attack" the terran army like kcdc mentioned with 1 or 2 HTs at a time. It's easy for terran to deal with stationary HT after he scan where they are, but oftentimes you can take the terran by surprise by just attacking with 1 or 2 storms, by themselves, at a time.

Teoita wrote:
I keep 4 ish in my main army, one in my main, one in my third, one for each outlying expansion, and like another 3-4 or so around the map gathering energy.

SC2John wrote:
With a standard 1-gate FE, build a zealot on 19 and cancel it if you see no zerglings at your base by about 3:30. If the zerglings do arrive, let the zealot finish, micro it and maybe pull some probes, and you should be able to hold without even scouting. You don't even need a wall at your ramp in order to make this work.

SC2John wrote:
Build a pylon and a cannon in your main mineral line and begin doing a gate expand instead. If you built your forge on the low ground, you'll just have to accept losing it. Sometimes you can counter cannon rush the Zerg's natural before the forge dies, though, so that's an option.

monk wrote:
Nexus first is more economical. 14 Forge 17 Nexus is always safe while blind 17 Nexus is not safe. If you scout 14 pool or later on all FFE-able maps, you can safely go Nexus first. Depending on the map and the timing of the pool, 17 nexus may or may not be safe versus pools earlier than 14 pool.

These days, however, nexus first is kind of the standard while forge first is mainly used to cannon rush and catch a Zerg player off guard.

monk wrote:
15 hatch is actually somewhat safe versus Protoss. The two reasons high level Zergs don't do it often are as follows:
1. You normally can't get the 15 hatch down before a probe comes to your natural and tries to block it.
2. Cannon rushes can be very deadly versus 15 hatch. You usually need to commit a drone scout or drone block to be somewhat safe versus cannon rushes.

With gateway first versus 15 hatch and a late gas, you can chronoboost stalkers out, gain map control, and force lings or spines. With forge first, if your opponent isn't blocking his ramp properly or isn't watching your probe well, you can attempt a cannon rush. However, both of these options are dependent on your opponent, so in reality, there’s no reliably consistent way to punish a 15 hatch.

Teoita wrote:
Assuming you open FFE:
Scout for a third at around 4.30-5.00 if he opened 15p/16h, or for a nat at 4.40 and a third at around 6.30 if he opens speedlings (im stretching these timings a bit, it should be faster but no silver player will have a properly timed opening). If he doesn't take it, get a fast sentry and an extra cannon because he might be allining you. If he doesn't even take his nat, he's probably going for some 1base roach or baneling allin (really really common in low leagues afaik). Also if you see no third, patrol a couple of probes around your base to check for nydus stuff.
If it ends up being 3base vs 2base, do whatever your go to build is, whether you take a 3rd or just kill him on 2 bases. The big sign to look for is whether zerg is taking 4 or 6 gasses, if he only has 4 he's probably going for a roach max while if he goes for 6 he is more likely to tech.
If you open gateway expand your build won't change much, just make sure to know of his gas timing to know when he could have zergling speed. Because of how safe most gateway expo builds are, most pros don't scout at all with it.

Monk wrote:
The best way to prevent this is to estimate when the queen will pop out and surround it with probes. If you have access to GSL vods, MC vs Leenock shows a perfect response.

kcdc wrote:
(1)See his drone coming, and hatch block your natural with a probe. There's no good reason for Z to send an early drone scout, so if they do, you should expect that they're up to something.

(2) Kill his hatchery before it finishes. You really only want to make 1 cannon, so it's good practice to have your building layout allow a single cannon to cover both your wall and the spot where your nexus would go. If you start the cannon early, you can kill the hatch before it finishes just by pulling a couple probes early on to supplement the cannon's DPS.

Teoita wrote:
If you are opening Gateway expand, let the zealot finish and chronoboost a second one. Additionally, pull 4/5 probes to attack it as soon as you spot it (usually right as your cyber core goes down). Ideally you don't want it to complete, but if it does it's CRUCIAL you don't let a queen finish to avoid him getting creep at your natural.

Teoita wrote:
If they went 14-15 pool, your cannon should barely be done in time on most maps, if he doesn't send the lings straight across (which is risky since he will ignore your probe and risk getting a hatch blocked). If you want to play it safe, have a probe on hold position in the gap in your wall, ready to throw down a pylon to block the entrance fully as the cannon finishes.

CecilSunkure wrote:
That's a super minor detail that doesn't really matter ever. I always wall with my Cyber core. What really matters a whole lot more is the location and placement of the wall buildings, rather than specifically whether or not it's a gateway or core.

rsvp wrote:
I chrono out 2 zealots, which will beat 4-6 lings. If he makes more lings than that, add 2-3 extra cannons, chrono sentries.

monk wrote:
There are 4 ways to defend a roach ling allin with a 1 gate expand:
1. Fast Void Rays: put up a Stargate right after nexus.
2. Fast Dark Templar: put up a twilight council right after your nexus. You will take damage from the roach ling attack. You also probably won't survive the earliest most allin versions. However, as long as you survive long enough, you should be able to do a ton of damage to your opponent, because he won't have an evo or lair.
3. Fast Forge into preemptive cannons
4. Preemptive chornoboosted stalker/sentry off of 4+ gateways

Note that the addition of the mothership core and purify makes these builds much easier to hold, so you can be quite greedy and still defend your wall-off.

Teoita wrote:
If you opened FFE:
If he keeps mining gas you have to worry about potential busts and 2 base tech play. Move and poke around with your probe to check for a (very unlikely) third. Get a second cannon. Get a sentry as a second unit if you want to be 100% safe, or a stalker. vs such a fast speed it's hard to get in to see what he's doing, so do your best to at least hold your xel'naga tower and see if there are any attacks coming. After your first sentry is started get a stargate both for roach defense and scouting.
If you opened gateway expand:
Watch out for any kind of mass speedling play; make sure to know when his speed will finish and if necessary cut probes to get your walloff in time.

monk wrote:
If you want to play a macro game versus a Zerg, you must scout him. Scout his tech, his drone count, his base count, his unit composition, his army size and his available tech. There are a few ways to accomplish this.

1. Robotics for Observers: In my opinion, this is the worst option, as even if you scout certain builds, you're either too late to respond to them or cannot aggressively punish greedy builds.
2. Hallucination: hallucinated Phoenix are arguably the best way to constantly scout your opponent.
3. Stargate: This is a form of light pressure. With either Void Ray or Phoenix, you are both pressuring and scouting at the same time.
4. Pressure: This technique scouts your opponent by pressuring his base and seeing what he reacts with. You may not get to see everything, but as you get better at the game and develop better game sense, you will be able to make more and more reads from pressure scouting.

kcdc wrote:
At Masters+, the standard way to get mutas is to take a fast third, tech lair and drop a roach warren for safety, and then start a spire after lair completes. If they're taking a fast third, then seeing a roach warren doesn't tell you a whole lot because they'll get the roach warren whether they're going roach bust, mutas or infestors.

rsvp wrote:
The question of whether phoenix or blink/storm is the best response to mutas now is still something I'm trying to answer. The current consensus seems to be that phoenix is better since using storms as base defense is less effective now that mutas can regen quicker. I know I've championed blink + HT against mutas in the past but now I think phoenix is the better response. On the other hand, blink/ht still works, and while mutas are definitely tougher to fight against than before, the changes to mutas also make it tougher to fight with phoenixes as well (phoenix did get +1 range but the speed increase of mutas still make that micro war just as challenging). Also, the MSC really helps the blink/ht play, both in terms of defending early on, and also mid-late game with mass recall - you can now go snipe an expo, then mass recall back to defend the muta counter.

rsvp wrote:
It really depends on the zerg composition. If the zerg is going heavy on roaches and/or hydras, then IMO it's very important to replace lost sentries (to maintain a decent number like 4-6). As soon as the zerg brings out tech like mutas, infestors, or other hive units, then I stop bothering with sentries.

rsvp wrote:
Against earlier roach/hydra pushes you can stop them with just stalker/sentry/immortal, as long as you have good FF. When the numbers get bigger you should have colossus by then. I highly recommend going double robo for more/faster colossus to stop those attacks on your 3rd.

As far as a standard game goes with the toss going FFE -> stargate > robo > 3rd and the zerg going 3 base -> roach -> whatever, not much has changed since WoL. A lot of the vods/replays from the guide should still be relevant. The biggest difference is that hydra/roach is more common instead of roach/infestor, but colossus play is good against both of those options (as well as other new HoTS builds like swarm hosts).

Make sure to go for colossus when you scout hydras or swarmhosts. It shouldn't be difficult considering you have early air units for scouting and the build gets a fairly early robo too. Personally I would even get a 2nd robo.

Teoita wrote:
The two key points are to get effective splash damage in the form of Colossi, and to abuse the immobility of the swarm hosts. Since you will be going robo anyway, get a warp prism out and use it to force the Zerg out of position with zealot warp ins.

Once you hit a high colossus count (4+) the locusts will just melt. Squirtle vs Leenock on Icarus is an excellent game to learn from, even though both players in fact were planning for a 2base all-in. Against 3base swarm host, you should add a second robo as a high colossus count is very important. It's very hard to break a Zerg going for Swarm Host-based turtle play, so your best bet is to head into lategame with a colossus/skytoss/templar deathball.

SC2John wrote:
Your best bet for defeating swarm hosts is army pressure (usually blink/colossus) on one side to threaten the 4th while dropping a lot in the main or sending zealot runbys into the natural or vice versa. The goal is to split the SH in a lot of different directions at once and force the Zerg player to be active with his army and locust rallying. Another big aspect of dealing with SH play is to constantly clear creep whenever possible. If you can prevent the Zerg from sitting comfortably on four bases and building up a huge bank, you should be in good shape heading into the late game.

Teoita wrote
Templar are really good, especially with a skytoss transition; their job is to keep corruptors or hydras at bay and kill infested terrans and vipers. If they aren't getting storms or feedbacks off it's probably because you are sending them in first, which is a bad mistake. Having storm also allows you to storm drop which is a really powerful tool.
Storm is kinda bad vs roaches and swarm hosts, but against lategame Zerg armies it's really helps as extra dps and a way to protect your skytoss/colossus.

Teoita wrote
When playing against this style you have to keep two things in mind:
a) You have to effectively deal with both his ultras AND lings and
b) His third is quite delayed compared to a normal 3 hatch no gas build.
This means that, assuming you are doing some variation on the standard stargate>4gate>robo expand, you want to play calmy and safely. If speedlings show up and cancel your third do not panic, just remake the Nexus while patiantly working on your ground army. Because you need to kill both ultras and lings, focusing on an immortal/archon/colossus army is a better idea than reactively trying to go into void rays, which compliment your already existing ground army poorly in this case.
Generally, i would recommend switching into immortals and teching towards templar after you have 3 colossi up. It's also helpful to throw down a second forge to catch back up in upgrades, as Zergs tend to go for very early double evo when playing this style.

Teoita wrote
In lategame pvz skytoss is incredibly powerful, so the two most popular army compositions at the moment are colossus/void ray and skytoss/templar. Since it's generally impossible to rush straight for these army compositions, most people usually stay on stalker/colossus while getting a strong 4base economy, and then tech to templar and skytoss.

monk wrote:
You must scout this in time, preferably as his first proxy pylon is building. Immediately throw up your own forge. His first cannon will finish and there is usually nothing you can do about it as long as the cannon is not in range of your probes/buildings. Throw up a cannon between your buildings and his first cannon but not in range of the cannon. If he tries to throw up more than 1 cannon, keep throwing up cannons, either matching his cannon count or going over by 1. The key is to make sure your cannons win this cannon vs cannon fight. Whoever wins this will usually win this game. If you think it will be close, you can even pull probes to attack the cannons just so you get a small edge on cannon hp, even if you lose probes. If you think you can decisively win this cannon war without additional cannons, cancel your other cannons in production.

On June 18 2013 04:39 Crosswind wrote:
I'm going to repeat myself a bit, because I feel like a bit of questionable information is coming out.

Mothership core is a much, much better way to spend your gas than a stalker. Let's count the ways:

1.) MSC damage > Stalker damage. 9.4 dps vs. 6.9 DPS
2.) MSC builds in 30 seconds. Chrono it and that's 20 seconds. Stalker builds in 42 seconds - 32 with one chrono. So MSC will be out 12 seconds earlier.
3.) You can build a zealot at the same time as you build an MSC. You can't do this with a stalker.
4.) Zealots can't shoot up - MSC core requires 0 micro, whereas stalker requires constant micro not to die to zealots.
5.) Your nexus can't be de-powered/interrupted in the same way that a gateway can be.

A mediocre standard opening (13 gate, 14 gas, 15 pylon, 17 cyber) has the MSC out just after 4 minutes. You can't get a stalker out faster. So you basically need to buy 1 minute of time while being outnumbered. Not too bad.

Here's some proxy 2-gate benchmarks:
The first zealot can come into your main at about 3 minutes.
The 5th zealot can come into your main at about 4:10ish
Your first zealot pops around 3:20ish.
Your MSC pops at about 4:05ish, and you have 2 zealots.

So the matchup basically is (times slightly imprecise, depends on rush distance, execution, etc):
3:00-3:20: Your probes vs. 1 zealot.
3:20ish to 350ish: Your probes + 1 zealot vs. 2-3 zealots
350-4:05ish: Your probes + 2 zealots vs. 3-4 zealots
4:05+: MSC + 2-3 zealots + probes vs. 4-5 zealots.

Obviously, this is dependent on probe micro. If you are unaware how to do this, suggest the following two techniques. Use the first if you have a zealot fighting too, the second if you have just probes:

1a.) Move command probes past his zealot
1b.) Attack-move.
1c.) Control-click a probe to select all.
1d.) Click the probe that has been hit (hint: it's the one that's a different color from the others)
1e.) Wait for another swing (Probes can take 3 - might as well take 2, easier to micro)
1f.) Click on a mineral patch to mineral-walk away.

2a.) Find a triple mineral patch in a V-shape (there's always one)
2b.) Spam mineral walk to the middle patch
2c.) Every auto-attack cycle (~1 second), attack-move. All the probes will attack the zealot, while the zealot's targetting will be @#$%'d.

------

The result of knowing and being able to execute these probe tricks means you can basically win every engage through the point where your MSC comes out. Once it comes out, the opponent has to engage you or the situation will get steadily worse. And you will win.

-Cross (The only way to lose to this attack is if you screw up the above micro, or don't scout/don't make a zealot)

Edit: One more tip, while I'm at it. Always build your initial pylon next to your nexus, in PVP. Build your gateway next to that pylon, so that a cyber-core will complete the wall-off with your vespene geyser, or that the cyber-core will block off a third side of the pylon (Nexus 1 side, gateway 1 side, cyber 1 side). This will make it harder to unpower your gateway, and harder for zealots to get into your mineral line. It can delay an attack by about 10 seconds, potentially, while making sure zealots can't get a surround.

monk wrote:
Ideally, if you scout it in time, throw up a 2nd gateway yourself and chornoboost out zealots. Your better economy, combined with the rush distance to your base will allow you to defend..Pull enough probes so that you have a dps advantage over him. For example, if he brings one probe, pull 2 probes to fight him. If you don’t scout it in time, throw up a forge for a defensive cannon which covers your entire base. Then, transition into a 4 gate.

Teoita
Get a forge and position 1-2 cannons to defend your nexus/pylons/gateway from both his zealots and cannons.

You should come out ahead as his probe count will be lower than yours. Be active with your scouting probe to make sure he doesn't take gas/gets warpgate faster than you though.

Teoita wrote:
Defending a 4gate with the HotS changed is even easier than WoL, thanks to the removal of high ground warp ins and addition of the msc. In general any one base opening should be able to stall for time forcefielding the ramp. As long as you don't let any high ground pylon go up you should be able to hold.

Alejandrisha wrote:
Maps that have locations where the neutral low-ground and a main base share a cliff allow a blink-obs player to pressure an expanding robo-player. On these maps, it is known that blink is strong, so SG play is very risky, and DT play can be a strong calculated risk. Robo is the go-to safe option, and blink-obs play is extremely common either as a delayed expansion play or for dedicated pressure. See: Yeonsu

On maps where a blink-obs player cannot blink into the main without engaging the natural, blink play is gimmicky at best and usually relies on a blink-in timing as soon as 7-10 stalkers are out and blink is finished. Robo play is very common here, so DT builds are rare and cheesy. Stargate play is therefore common. See: Daybreak

Teoita wrote:
By walling off either your main ramp or natural with gateways and/or pylons.

Teoita wrote:
You need to buy time for your detection to complete. This can be done by holding your ramp with forcefields in front of the DT's blur, units being left on hold position on the ramp or a 3 pylon wall while chronoboosting an observer. If he does get up the ramp, make sure to pull your probes to limit the damage taken, and if he tries to kill your Robo (or Forge) forcefield around it to keep the DT's from getting in range.

rsvp wrote:
There are, generally, two ways to expand in PvP: either by reacting after scouting an opponent's tech (for example, by opening phoenixes and expanding with an immortal against a blink stalker player) or by having a designed fast expand build. These builds can be slightly riskier and greedier, but they are extremely popular and can hold off most builds with correct execution.

The 3 most popular FE openings are: 1gate Fe into robo into 3gates, DT expand and 2-3Gate Stalker/MSC pressure into expand. All 3 of these builds can hold non all-in aggression by letting the Nexus tank some damage before using purify on it to let production or tech kick in. For example, 1gate FE should be able to get an immortal out and even hold a delayed 4gate, as shown in IPTL by Super vs Squirtle.
On the other hand, against a hard 4gate or 10gate opening you will have to cancel the nexus. These builds however are easily scoutable.

Older builds such as the 2gate robo that was extremely popular at the end of WoL aren't as solid. The extra production of robo and gateways before a nexus isn't necessary, and such a build is highly vulnerable against the extremely popular stargate openings in HotS.

Teoita wrote:
You can throw down a twilight council when you see his phoenixes, expand when he does, and then go for a chargelot/blink/archon timing to bust him. If he doesn't do enough damage with his phoenixes and/or over invests in immortals, your chargelot/archon army should wreck him.

It's also possible to go for a faster bust off 6-7gate blink. Also, never commit to a chargelot/archon bust if he's walled off. Instead, take a fast third, tech up and keep map control, delaying his third. If he moves out on 2bases, engage in the open field where your gateway army is most efficient.

rsvp wrote:
I usually go for a 2 base timing off of 8-10 gates when blink and +1 finishes. No storm or charge yet, but I'll have 2-3 archons. If that doesn't work or he turtles too hard, then I'll try to stall his 3rd while getting my own 3rd up, and tech to storm. Just have your blink stalkers out on the map, threatening backstabs if he tries to move out. There's not much harass that you can do during the mid game while he's turtling on 2 bases/establishing his 3rd, but once it gets to late game you'll want proxy pylons and warp prisms to flood zealots into one or more of his bases as soon as he moves out.

As far as engagements go there's not much to say, I usually lead with blink stalkers to bait/get a few free shots off or maybe snipe a void ray, then go in with the rest of my army. You want to try to target fire voids with stalkers but it can be hard sometimes especially as the armies get bigger so sometimes I just a-move and focus on trying to blink back and save stalkers instead.

Storm actually does pretty well against VR, especially towards late game once armies get bigger. Mid game zealot/stalker/archon does ok as well.

Teoita wrote:
In PvP, it's really not worth it to spend 250/250 in the midgame on an Archon when for less than that (300/200) you could have a Colossus. When you take a third and your gas income goes up, adding archons from HT's does work out nicely though, especially if you cut colossi to add Immortals which are pretty mineral-intensive.

Additionally, high templar can also use storm to counter void rays.

Teoita wrote:
The most popular mid/late game style atm is to go for an archon/immortal/zealot composition. The idea is that you can tech quickly to storm against a void ray heavy player, or take a faster third while pressuring and then teching to tempest against colossus play.

Other army compositions like immortal/void ray or colossus armies are usually used for strong timing attacks, before your opponent can get the correct counter composition.

If a PvP goes on long enough both players will usually tech to tempest to get map control, holding key locations and sieging expansions. The absolutely "best" army to aim for however is not figured out yet.