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there is no such thing as an unbeatable buildThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 365
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
there is no such thing as an unbeatable build | ||
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dr3am_b3ing
Canada188 Posts
On September 28 2015 23:49 Teoita wrote: Or maybe the zerg just executes better than you do there is no such thing as an unbeatable buildDude my PvZ is literally unbeatable right now with this build unless i get 6-9 pooled (zerg gets a build order win because I'm going nexus first) | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On September 29 2015 00:35 dr3am_b3ing wrote: Dude my PvZ is literally unbeatable right now with this build unless i get 6-9 pooled (zerg gets a build order win because I'm going nexus first) My warp prism 4 gate in WOL was also next to unbeatable, except I got wrecked when I faced a good player who knew how to deal with it. Sure, I was in diamond and my opponent was Major (lol), but my point still stands - you can't determine the true effectiveness of your strategy against people who don't know what to do against it at all. Maybe you're just playing worse players or people who have no clue what to do against this build. By the way, Hitman does an 8 gate all in, not a 7 gate. If you're doing a 7 gate, you're not doing it quite right. | ||
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Icekin
88 Posts
On September 29 2015 00:35 dr3am_b3ing wrote: Dude my PvZ is literally unbeatable right now with this build unless i get 6-9 pooled (zerg gets a build order win because I'm going nexus first) post replay please | ||
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
 Hell i even denied Taeja's third once, he was offracing as Z (and then proceeded to rape me silly).Don't confuse something that works well for you on ladder (which could be for a variety of reasons), with something that is actually unstoppable, imbalanced or whatever. Hitman's 7gate is strong but it's certainly not the new soultrain for example. | ||
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dr3am_b3ing
Canada188 Posts
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6201620 Build order is: 9 pylon 10 gateway 14 (2) assimilators 15 cybernetics core 16 proxy pylon 17 stargate 17 stalker (chrono boost) 19 warp gate 21 oracle 25 pylon 26 (2) gateways 26 stalker 28 oracle Pylons and stalkers from there This is a PvT build designed to get out the fastest oracle possible. I'm hitting my opponent's mineral line by about the 5 minute mark. It's pretty specific you'll notice as right when the stargate finished, i have exactly 150/150 for an oracle. I'm wondering if anybody here has gotten out an oracle faster than this | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
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AkashSky
United States257 Posts
On October 03 2015 09:27 KingAlphard wrote: This isn't a good cheese because you almost never win games with the first oracle (basically you would need to kill scvs continuously until you run out of energy) , you need something to follow up , with 10 gate double gas you can't even follow up with a 1 base all in. Hey hey, lets not quickly dismiss it. Its a decent cheese play that will beat a terran who didn't go gas first or get turrets or have 6 marines in position. He's following up with a 3 gate attack as well, so as far as all-ins go i think this looks alright. Perhaps to make it even stronger, you could make voids after the first oracle, and attack with 2 voids+oracle+gateway units. Also you can technically transition to rotti build, (proxy tempest) off of this as well. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
It's one of those builds which you might think it's good when you hit a few terran players who aren't scv scouting or are used to badly executed/late proxy oracles (especially at lower levels), but then after a while you realize overall it's not worth it. | ||
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Tempest
United States147 Posts
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AkashSky
United States257 Posts
On October 09 2015 11:43 Tempest wrote: Quick question gentleman. I haven't played since WoL days, something I'm seeming to notice is that a lot of toss players are favoring 1 gate FE over FFE in PvZ. Is FFE still considered viable at a dia+ level? Also I think I heard something about LotV starting you with a significantly higher worker count, is this part of the reason people are moving away from FFE? FFE is still viable, but it lets zerg get away with going gasless and droning their third base really hard since you can't do any gateway attack in time to punish it. On the plus side, if you scout with your probe you can punish any hatchery first or 3 hatch play by cannon rush, so it balances out in the end. (You cannot punish hatch first with a gate expand, or even 3 hatch as far as i know, considering the slow lings + queen defense holds most gateway timings). Its mostly a stylistic thing. Prefer economy over aggression? go FFE. Do you like to attack and pressure the zerg? Go for gate expand. Also, gate expand is like auto win vs early pools if you make the zealot. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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Dead_MAX
3 Posts
I'm a unexperienced player (Silver atm) and right now I'm learning 4 gate build (Taken from LowkoTV) and I have few questions (I didn't find answers in OP) In PvT I have encountered a Terran that made second base and created 2 bunkers (I came in with 5 stalkers and 1 zealot - about 6:00), destroyed 1 bunker, but then had to back up becuase I would lose most probably way too many units. I attempted to push with more units, but to no avail. So I backed, created second base of my own and then got destroyed by mass Mauraders. - What should have done better? (In encounters I focused mauraders) In PvZ something similar happened against mass roaches, I attempted to make few Immortals, but sheer number of Roaches overwhelmed me. This happens in almost every game and I have no idea what should I do against it. TLDR version: I'm a bad player (Silver atm) with almost 0 micro and macro skills and have problems with these: What to do with 4 gate vs marine/maurader bunkered up? What to do with 4 gate vs mass roaches? Thank you | ||
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Icekin
88 Posts
On October 11 2015 05:37 Dead_MAX wrote: Hello, I'm a unexperienced player (Silver atm) and right now I'm learning 4 gate build (Taken from LowkoTV) and I have few questions (I didn't find answers in OP) In PvT I have encountered a Terran that made second base and created 2 bunkers (I came in with 5 stalkers and 1 zealot - about 6:00), destroyed 1 bunker, but then had to back up becuase I would lose most probably way too many units. I attempted to push with more units, but to no avail. So I backed, created second base of my own and then got destroyed by mass Mauraders. - What should have done better? (In encounters I focused mauraders) In PvZ something similar happened against mass roaches, I attempted to make few Immortals, but sheer number of Roaches overwhelmed me. This happens in almost every game and I have no idea what should I do against it. TLDR version: I'm a bad player (Silver atm) with almost 0 micro and macro skills and have problems with these: What to do with 4 gate vs marine/maurader bunkered up? What to do with 4 gate vs mass roaches? Thank you Keep in mind there is no way you can beat a terran o zergs using only gate units, the only exception is blinkers all in. Stalkers are useless in PvT when marauders come out; f.e. in standard games you want to have something like a dozen of them just to counter vikings. If you are doing 4g and the terran scouts you, consider add few sentry and more zealots: zealots+ff behind bunkers will kill fast bunkers and soak more damage. Then kill as fas as you can the tech module: shut down marauders production. 4g is still a cheesy build, if u fail u loose. Another tip: try hide ur gates in order to confuse terran. In PvZ u said gate+immortals failed vs roach: did u had sentry? sentries are a must have in PvZ because you are overwhelmed in each fight from zerg units and you need to cut his army in small pieces | ||
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Dead_MAX
3 Posts
On October 11 2015 05:51 Icekin wrote: Keep in mind there is no way you can beat a terran o zergs using only gate units, the only exception is blinkers all in. Stalkers are useless in PvT when marauders come out; f.e. in standard games you want to have something like a dozen of them just to counter vikings. If you are doing 4g and the terran scouts you, consider add few sentry and more zealots: zealots+ff behind bunkers will kill fast bunkers and soak more damage. Then kill as fas as you can the tech module: shut down marauders production. 4g is still a cheesy build, if u fail u loose. Another tip: try hide ur gates in order to confuse terran. In PvZ u said gate+immortals failed vs roach: did u had sentry? sentries are a must have in PvZ because you are overwhelmed in each fight from zerg units and you need to cut his army in small pieces If I understand this correctly: 4g is about the initial push with 6 units (or 10 with reinforcements) and If this attack is defended I have pretty much lost. Is that correct? ...Also should be used in PvP and possibly PvT, but never against zerg (If I scout roach warren or simply in PvZ generally?) Also in those games where my push fails (In general, not just Roaches) I usually take second gas, make at least 2 sentries (for guardian shield mostly) make one robo and make few immortals before I'm overwhelmed by either mass Mauraders or Roaches. So far only once I had the chance to go late game where I attempted to make a Deathball (stalkers/immortals/colo with 2-2-2 and void rays with lower upgrades) Could you recommend me some different builds for PvT and PvZ? (Please bear in mind my tragic micro/macro skills) | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
I think you should probably look at more modern allins. I personally strongly believe that new players should start with simple builds, and all-ins are usually simpler than long term macro builds. If the 4gate doesn't seem to work for you anymore, i think you should start branching out from having one build, to one per matchup. For PvZ you can check out the PvZ guide we wrote years ago (basically any allin in there should be ok at your level, the immortal all-in is the strongest of the bunch though): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/383628-protoss-versus-zerg-the-guide The builds are a bit outdated (you should throw a msc in there somewhere for example), but it's probably a decent start i suppose. You can also look at the Mantrain http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/414359-the-man-train-immortal-zealot-pvz-all-in or the 222 (Protoss builds have glorious names btw): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/416819-the-2-2-2-strategy-spotlight For PvT you can look at the Blink allins from the Great Book of Protoss Bullshit here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/447483-the-great-book-of-protoss-bullshit and from SC2John's guide http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/435336-sc2-notes-duckdeoks-bs-blink-all-in-pvt Honestly as protoss you can allin with basically any unit, so imo you should just choose a unit you like and see if there's a 2base allin that uses that unit | ||
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Dead_MAX
3 Posts
On October 11 2015 06:33 Teoita wrote: What you said is correct yes. The one base 4gate is particularly shit against Zerg because they are just very good at defending one base builds, but even in PvT and PvP to be honest it's kind of a mediocre build. It can definitely work at your level though. There are 2gas variations of 4gate that get a few sentries, but those builds are probably even more outdated because they tend to hit more slowly than one gas builds. That said, i strongly believe that at most levels on ladder you can make basically any build work if you execute it correctly. In the case of the 4gate, the timing of the first warp-in is really important. You need to have your 6 units at around 5:40, 5:50 at most; anything later than that means you messed up your chronoboosts (which is pretty much all that 4gate teaches you macro wise). I think you should probably look at more modern allins. I personally strongly believe that new players should start with simple builds, and all-ins are usually simpler than long term macro builds. If the 4gate doesn't seem to work for you anymore, i think you should start branching out from having one build, to one per matchup. For PvZ you can check out the PvZ guide we wrote years ago (basically any allin in there should be ok at your level, the immortal all-in is the strongest of the bunch though): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/383628-protoss-versus-zerg-the-guide The builds are a bit outdated (you should throw a msc in there somewhere for example), but it's probably a decent start i suppose. You can also look at the Mantrain http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/414359-the-man-train-immortal-zealot-pvz-all-in or the 222 (Protoss builds have glorious names btw): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/416819-the-2-2-2-strategy-spotlight For PvT you can look at the Blink allins from the Great Book of Protoss Bullshit here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/447483-the-great-book-of-protoss-bullshit and from SC2John's guide http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/435336-sc2-notes-duckdeoks-bs-blink-all-in-pvt Honestly as protoss you can allin with basically any unit, so imo you should just choose a unit you like and see if there's a 2base allin that uses that unit Very well, you have been very helpful. Thank you a lot and I'll check these builds....Hell, I might try to my old WoL Chargelots build that pushed me into gold (and in 2v2 into Diamond . | ||
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dr3am_b3ing
Canada188 Posts
On October 11 2015 05:37 Dead_MAX wrote: Hello, I'm a unexperienced player (Silver atm) and right now I'm learning 4 gate build (Taken from LowkoTV) and I have few questions (I didn't find answers in OP) In PvT I have encountered a Terran that made second base and created 2 bunkers (I came in with 5 stalkers and 1 zealot - about 6:00), destroyed 1 bunker, but then had to back up becuase I would lose most probably way too many units. I attempted to push with more units, but to no avail. So I backed, created second base of my own and then got destroyed by mass Mauraders. - What should have done better? (In encounters I focused mauraders) In PvZ something similar happened against mass roaches, I attempted to make few Immortals, but sheer number of Roaches overwhelmed me. This happens in almost every game and I have no idea what should I do against it. TLDR version: I'm a bad player (Silver atm) with almost 0 micro and macro skills and have problems with these: What to do with 4 gate vs marine/maurader bunkered up? What to do with 4 gate vs mass roaches? Thank you Solution: Don't 4 gate Nah but really. You can 4 gate but go with a variant on it. In PvT, I will do a 7:20 Blink timing with an MsC. This allows you to bypass his natural's bunker set up by blinking up to the high ground. Or even a proxy oracle into 3 gate works nice on maps like D&T. In PvZ, I suggest trying a 2 base 7 gate instead. They've been quite effective for me | ||
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VengefulTree
Canada637 Posts
Thanks | ||
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