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On September 15 2015 19:38 Teoita wrote: If the zerg stays on lair you dont really need colossi imo, esp off double robo. a muta switch will just murder you, and as long as you have good force fields stalker/immortal is fine. If he stays on roach/hydra too long i guess eventually you can get aoe to finish the game, but you dont want to rush it.
I just love colossi so much. I even use one as my ingame portrait I guess yeah getting some to seal the deal is fine as long as I'm not dealing with spire, which tbh I should be able to identify with constant double hallucinations scout. I'll try it and tell you if I'm having as much success with it as I currently do with oldschool phoenix colossi.
I'm wondering if anybody else is experiencing this on ladder with Terran
I'll do a 1 Gate FE Nexus into MsC expecting the classic Reaper FE opening (my build transitions into a defensive 2 gate robo style). I have my robo up by 5 minutes so i can deflect gas first widow mine drops quite well. But lately I've been dealing with terrans who will open 3 rax into 5 rax expand. They manage to kill off my expo because 3 rax and by the time i have my expo back up, the terran already has an orbital expo with like 5-8 scv's already mining. I know i can't make it back from that point so i try to push with a couple colossus but the terran will already have enough mauraders to counter. I can get an obs into their base to scout their 3 rax no expand but by the time i do it feels like I'm too late.
I know I should be probe scouting if I don't get a reaper in my base by 4 mins but I play defensive macro style so mining time for me is important. I'm just wondering if any other protoss have been experiencing this on ladder and/ or have managed to hold against this?
On September 16 2015 00:11 dr3am_b3ing wrote: I'm wondering if anybody else is experiencing this on ladder with Terran
I'll do a 1 Gate FE Nexus into MsC expecting the classic Reaper FE opening (my build transitions into a defensive 2 gate robo style). I have my robo up by 5 minutes so i can deflect gas first widow mine drops quite well. But lately I've been dealing with terrans who will open 3 rax into 5 rax expand. They manage to kill off my expo because 3 rax and by the time i have my expo back up, the terran already has an orbital expo with like 5-8 scv's already mining. I know i can't make it back from that point so i try to push with a couple colossus but the terran will already have enough mauraders to counter. I can get an obs into their base to scout their 3 rax no expand but by the time i do it feels like I'm too late.
I know I should be probe scouting if I don't get a reaper in my base by 4 mins but I play defensive macro style so mining time for me is important. I'm just wondering if any other protoss have been experiencing this on ladder and/ or have managed to hold against this?
I had a few games against similar builds on Merry Go Round. Take this with a bit of salt, I'm no grandmaster, but I've never struggled to deal with those openings even when totally unscouted. I would just buy some time and let them kill my Nexus while getting immortals and sentries, get my expo back (immos + sentry + zealots is awesome vs not too high numbers of rax units) and then transition into colossi just as I would in a normal game. Just make sure you save all your natural probes. Maybe your opening is a bit greedy, you should be getting 3 stalkers out of your first gate and not too late additional gateways.
If you feel you're very much behind after the dust has settled your best bet until high masters is probably double forge or cheeky no forge storm + colossi. Both allow you to take insanely cost efficient engages.
I think when I go 17 gateway 17 forge (scout) 18 pylon 18 2* assimilator
I can still have my sout and cannon ready for a 14 pool
My question is:
does my supply block screw the build?
I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding but you don't need cannon to hold off 14 pool (no gas) with nexus first, good probe micro until zealot comes out should be fine.
Also with the build you posted, there's no reason to go gate first then forge as there will be a gap when gate finishes and when cyber starts. It's better to just go 15/16 nexus 17 forge in this situation.
actually i can place the cyber right when the gateway goes down if i scout hatch first and therefore am able to delay zealot and cannon. this is because of my freaking supply block of like 20 seconds at 18/18. (EDIT: this is 2 probes behind while one chrono safed at minute 4 compared to 17 pylon 18 forge. this is too much, right?)
the next good thing about gate before forge is that i can use the cyber as a wall off vs a 14 pool, so i am not forced to build a super early second gateway.
on the other side you are right that a zealot should almost be in time anyways so i just need to improve my mirco and be fine with a delayed forge.
On September 16 2015 00:11 dr3am_b3ing wrote: I'm wondering if anybody else is experiencing this on ladder with Terran
I'll do a 1 Gate FE Nexus into MsC expecting the classic Reaper FE opening (my build transitions into a defensive 2 gate robo style). I have my robo up by 5 minutes so i can deflect gas first widow mine drops quite well. But lately I've been dealing with terrans who will open 3 rax into 5 rax expand. They manage to kill off my expo because 3 rax and by the time i have my expo back up, the terran already has an orbital expo with like 5-8 scv's already mining. I know i can't make it back from that point so i try to push with a couple colossus but the terran will already have enough mauraders to counter. I can get an obs into their base to scout their 3 rax no expand but by the time i do it feels like I'm too late.
I know I should be probe scouting if I don't get a reaper in my base by 4 mins but I play defensive macro style so mining time for me is important. I'm just wondering if any other protoss have been experiencing this on ladder and/ or have managed to hold against this?
I had a few games against similar builds on Merry Go Round. Take this with a bit of salt, I'm no grandmaster, but I've never struggled to deal with those openings even when totally unscouted. I would just buy some time and let them kill my Nexus while getting immortals and sentries, get my expo back (immos + sentry + zealots is awesome vs not too high numbers of rax units) and then transition into colossi just as I would in a normal game. Just make sure you save all your natural probes. Maybe your opening is a bit greedy, you should be getting 3 stalkers out of your first gate and not too late additional gateways.
If you feel you're very much behind after the dust has settled your best bet until high masters is probably double forge or cheeky no forge storm + colossi. Both allow you to take insanely cost efficient engages.
In such cases i usually trade my probes at the natural to keep the expansion alive. is this bad for me? should i rather sacrefice the nexus?
On September 16 2015 00:11 dr3am_b3ing wrote: I'm wondering if anybody else is experiencing this on ladder with Terran
I'll do a 1 Gate FE Nexus into MsC expecting the classic Reaper FE opening (my build transitions into a defensive 2 gate robo style). I have my robo up by 5 minutes so i can deflect gas first widow mine drops quite well. But lately I've been dealing with terrans who will open 3 rax into 5 rax expand. They manage to kill off my expo because 3 rax and by the time i have my expo back up, the terran already has an orbital expo with like 5-8 scv's already mining. I know i can't make it back from that point so i try to push with a couple colossus but the terran will already have enough mauraders to counter. I can get an obs into their base to scout their 3 rax no expand but by the time i do it feels like I'm too late.
I know I should be probe scouting if I don't get a reaper in my base by 4 mins but I play defensive macro style so mining time for me is important. I'm just wondering if any other protoss have been experiencing this on ladder and/ or have managed to hold against this?
I had a few games against similar builds on Merry Go Round. Take this with a bit of salt, I'm no grandmaster, but I've never struggled to deal with those openings even when totally unscouted. I would just buy some time and let them kill my Nexus while getting immortals and sentries, get my expo back (immos + sentry + zealots is awesome vs not too high numbers of rax units) and then transition into colossi just as I would in a normal game. Just make sure you save all your natural probes. Maybe your opening is a bit greedy, you should be getting 3 stalkers out of your first gate and not too late additional gateways.
If you feel you're very much behind after the dust has settled your best bet until high masters is probably double forge or cheeky no forge storm + colossi. Both allow you to take insanely cost efficient engages.
In such cases i usually trade my probes at the natural to keep the expansion alive. is this bad for me? should i rather sacrefice the nexus?
Depends on the situation. I'd trade the probes if I'm sure I can completely clean the attack. Otherwise I would just use it to buy time, dancing with units and delaying overcharge as much as possible, even saving it for the main if I'm really being overwhelmed.
Would be good to have a replay of yours so that maybe we can point out what could be improved, except the obvious "scout it lol".
So I went on to try and find some games where the colossus transition happens (usually it seems to be on one robo only indeed) and the PtitDrogo vs Hyun Terraform game caught my attention (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-BMXfPOiNU, game begins around 18:00). Basically PtitDrogo goes for quite an early robo bay (11:00ish) out of an oracle opening that gets a quick +2 and blink too. Was that something reactive or prepared specifically for HyuN or is it a kind of play that you should be able to use on a regular basis ?
On September 18 2015 14:31 Allred wrote: does anyone know how to win pvz on these dumb maps where zergs get to take a gold 3rd base easily?
I don't feel the need to do an all in against zerg's on Terraform to win. To be honest, a fast third sentry stalker style with good execution should be solid enough.
That being said, a well-executed san gate into an immortal sentry all in is a pretty good alternative if you prefer not to play a macro game imo. If you're interested in this approach but happen not to have experience with this build, I can give you a couple of tips. Just let me know if you need help.
On September 16 2015 00:11 dr3am_b3ing wrote: I'm wondering if anybody else is experiencing this on ladder with Terran
I'll do a 1 Gate FE Nexus into MsC expecting the classic Reaper FE opening (my build transitions into a defensive 2 gate robo style). I have my robo up by 5 minutes so i can deflect gas first widow mine drops quite well. But lately I've been dealing with terrans who will open 3 rax into 5 rax expand. They manage to kill off my expo because 3 rax and by the time i have my expo back up, the terran already has an orbital expo with like 5-8 scv's already mining. I know i can't make it back from that point so i try to push with a couple colossus but the terran will already have enough mauraders to counter. I can get an obs into their base to scout their 3 rax no expand but by the time i do it feels like I'm too late.
I know I should be probe scouting if I don't get a reaper in my base by 4 mins but I play defensive macro style so mining time for me is important. I'm just wondering if any other protoss have been experiencing this on ladder and/ or have managed to hold against this?
We're missing important info here. 3 rax what? Pure marines? Marines marauders? I assume marine marauders.
So you're telling us you're playing completely blind "because you play a safe style". No. You still need to either 13 scout or 4:00-4:30 scouting dodging reaper path. You can't hold any 1 base aggressive style properly if you don't scout, not even gas first, unless you play so safe that the mining time lost wouldn't hurt your economy nearly as much.
If you scout that around 4:00-4:30, all you need to do is to immediately stop probe production (22-24 probes is ok), get +2 gateways (timed to finish at the same time as warpgate), continuously build stalkers from 1 gate+ immortals and chrono warpgate. Please note that you probably won't have the money to do all of this. In this case you'll have to prioritize getting 3 warpgates up as soon as possible. Warpgate is a pretty big deal. You can cut on stalker or immortal production if necessary.
If he's getting 3 raxes before expanding, it's a big commitment. However you still need to save the expo because, as you noticed, you don't have a tech advantage which means your composition is weaker (he has upgraded marines-marauders, you have unupgraded gateway units and immortals). With overcharge it shouldn't be so hard, though.
The scariest 1 base terran push overall is 2 rax marine/marauder with proxy factory. Much tougher to deal than pure marine/marauder like this.
On September 18 2015 14:31 Allred wrote: does anyone know how to win pvz on these dumb maps where zergs get to take a gold 3rd base easily?
I'd just play a standard macro game tbh, gold bases are a huge boost in early game but mine out pretty fast.
Yeah, that's another important thing to keep in mind.
Also, gold bases barely increase your total mineral income. According to the wiki, it only gives you a 5% econ boost, which is pretty negligible. So the main advantage is that you need 12 workers to have optimal saturation instead of 16. On the flipside the base on Terraform is definitely more exposed to certain kinds of attacks, pokes, and all ins than the regular one, although that probably doesn't make zealot harassment any easier.
This is Hitman's 1 Gas 7 Gate. This is, from my experience, an unstoppable push that zerg cannot deal with. If a zerg opens 15 hatch (which seems to be the meta opener), you will outright win your game so long as your opponent doesn't get a run-by of zergling into your base prior to your moving out or if your opponent denies proxy pylons/ kills your probe.
9 Pylon (at main ramp) 15 Nexus 16 Gateway 17 Pylon (part of natural wall) 17 Assimilator 20 Cybernetics Core 20 Zealot 24 Pylon 29 Warp Gate (Chrono Boost) 29 Gateway 34 Gateway (your first 2 gates after your inital gateway should act as a wall off to your natural) 34 Gateway 34 Gateway 34 Gateway 34 Gateway 34 Gateway
Probe up hard to get fast 2 base mineral saturation. You should have 16/24 probes on both nexii and 3/3 on your vespene gas as you start to move out. Your push will be unsuccessful if your opponent denies proxy pylons or kills your probe as you move out. Once you get a pylon up at your opponent's creep spread however, just warp in 7 units at a time and a-move your way to victory. You have to be pretty fast to get the exact 7 minute timing but my god does this build ever kick zerg ass. Prepare for BMs.
*EDIT*: Wanted to follow the guidelines a little more by providing some links/ pro replay references
On September 23 2015 23:55 dr3am_b3ing wrote: THE ZERG KILLER BUILD:
This is Hitman's 1 Gas 7 Gate. This is, from my experience, an unstoppable push that zerg cannot deal with. If a zerg opens 15 hatch (which seems to be the meta opener), you will outright win your game so long as your opponent doesn't get a run-by of zergling into your base prior to your moving out or if your opponent denies proxy pylons/ kills your probe.
9 Pylon (at main ramp) 15 Nexus 16 Gateway 17 Pylon (part of natural wall) 17 Assimilator 20 Cybernetics Core 20 Zealot 24 Pylon 29 Warp Gate (Chrono Boost) 29 Gateway 34 Gateway (your first 2 gates after your inital gateway should act as a wall off to your natural) 34 Gateway 34 Gateway 34 Gateway 34 Gateway 34 Gateway
Probe up hard to get fast 2 base mineral saturation. You should have 16/24 probes on both nexii and 3/3 on your vespene gas as you start to move out. Your push will be unsuccessful if your opponent denies proxy pylons or kills your probe as you move out. Once you get a pylon up at your opponent's creep spread however, just warp in 7 units at a time and a-move your way to victory. You have to be pretty fast to get the exact 7 minute timing but my god does this build ever kick zerg ass. Prepare for BMs.
*EDIT*: Wanted to follow the guidelines a little more by providing some links/ pro replay references
it's 8 gates in the build order u show, but I guess it's a mistake also it will be nice to see some replays where it *worked* actually against varius zerg responses I tried twice against a 15 hatchery master guy, first time he scouted mass gates easly and won just by spamming units on 3 basese, second time, after i denied his third around 7:30, he pulled me back again (I had a proxy pylon in his third while pushing in natural, maybe this is why I lost)
Overall, i think this build isn't so good. If I have to all-in, there are several ways to do it better, this one leaves you uncovered from any cheese-all in because u have no sentry o msc back, just a zealot and dies easly from mass units from zerg who scouts it.
Will give few other tries anyway
edit: confirmed, it sucks. better do blinkers or some other things than this
On September 23 2015 23:55 dr3am_b3ing wrote: THE ZERG KILLER BUILD:
This is Hitman's 1 Gas 7 Gate. This is, from my experience, an unstoppable push that zerg cannot deal with. If a zerg opens 15 hatch (which seems to be the meta opener), you will outright win your game so long as your opponent doesn't get a run-by of zergling into your base prior to your moving out or if your opponent denies proxy pylons/ kills your probe.
9 Pylon (at main ramp) 15 Nexus 16 Gateway 17 Pylon (part of natural wall) 17 Assimilator 20 Cybernetics Core 20 Zealot 24 Pylon 29 Warp Gate (Chrono Boost) 29 Gateway 34 Gateway (your first 2 gates after your inital gateway should act as a wall off to your natural) 34 Gateway 34 Gateway 34 Gateway 34 Gateway 34 Gateway
Probe up hard to get fast 2 base mineral saturation. You should have 16/24 probes on both nexii and 3/3 on your vespene gas as you start to move out. Your push will be unsuccessful if your opponent denies proxy pylons or kills your probe as you move out. Once you get a pylon up at your opponent's creep spread however, just warp in 7 units at a time and a-move your way to victory. You have to be pretty fast to get the exact 7 minute timing but my god does this build ever kick zerg ass. Prepare for BMs.
*EDIT*: Wanted to follow the guidelines a little more by providing some links/ pro replay references
it's 8 gates in the build order u show, but I guess it's a mistake also it will be nice to see some replays where it *worked* actually against varius zerg responses I tried twice against a 15 hatchery master guy, first time he scouted mass gates easly and won just by spamming units on 3 basese, second time, after i denied his third around 7:30, he pulled me back again (I had a proxy pylon in his third while pushing in natural, maybe this is why I lost)
Overall, i think this build isn't so good. If I have to all-in, there are several ways to do it better, this one leaves you uncovered from any cheese-all in because u have no sentry o msc back, just a zealot and dies easly from mass units from zerg who scouts it.
Will give few other tries anyway
edit: confirmed, it sucks. better do blinkers or some other things than this
Did you not see the video? Pig played like a literal god, micro'd and macro'd perfectly and still had an EXTREMELY difficult time holding it. Against any zerg that doesn't display 100% of that skill, you would surely win! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a side note, here is my question. If I open with this old and outdated protoss build, (MC 2 stalker MSC opener) from imbabuilds, how much damage do I need to do to a CC first terran in order to not be terribly far behind? In my experience I end up all inning with an imortal bust if I come with my stalkers and see a bunker + orbital command on the natural.
I want to know if expanding is more viable than the all-in in this situation, because I have had more luck with the all in then expanding in master league.
On September 23 2015 23:55 dr3am_b3ing wrote: THE ZERG KILLER BUILD:
This is Hitman's 1 Gas 7 Gate. This is, from my experience, an unstoppable push that zerg cannot deal with. If a zerg opens 15 hatch (which seems to be the meta opener), you will outright win your game so long as your opponent doesn't get a run-by of zergling into your base prior to your moving out or if your opponent denies proxy pylons/ kills your probe.
9 Pylon (at main ramp) 15 Nexus 16 Gateway 17 Pylon (part of natural wall) 17 Assimilator 20 Cybernetics Core 20 Zealot 24 Pylon 29 Warp Gate (Chrono Boost) 29 Gateway 34 Gateway (your first 2 gates after your inital gateway should act as a wall off to your natural) 34 Gateway 34 Gateway 34 Gateway 34 Gateway 34 Gateway
Probe up hard to get fast 2 base mineral saturation. You should have 16/24 probes on both nexii and 3/3 on your vespene gas as you start to move out. Your push will be unsuccessful if your opponent denies proxy pylons or kills your probe as you move out. Once you get a pylon up at your opponent's creep spread however, just warp in 7 units at a time and a-move your way to victory. You have to be pretty fast to get the exact 7 minute timing but my god does this build ever kick zerg ass. Prepare for BMs.
*EDIT*: Wanted to follow the guidelines a little more by providing some links/ pro replay references
it's 8 gates in the build order u show, but I guess it's a mistake also it will be nice to see some replays where it *worked* actually against varius zerg responses I tried twice against a 15 hatchery master guy, first time he scouted mass gates easly and won just by spamming units on 3 basese, second time, after i denied his third around 7:30, he pulled me back again (I had a proxy pylon in his third while pushing in natural, maybe this is why I lost)
Overall, i think this build isn't so good. If I have to all-in, there are several ways to do it better, this one leaves you uncovered from any cheese-all in because u have no sentry o msc back, just a zealot and dies easly from mass units from zerg who scouts it.
Will give few other tries anyway
edit: confirmed, it sucks. better do blinkers or some other things than this
Did you not see the video? Pig played like a literal god, micro'd and macro'd perfectly and still had an EXTREMELY difficult time holding it. Against any zerg that doesn't display 100% of that skill, you would surely win!
1 min later later you can hit with +1 and blink. The pig guy scout nothing, just the wall, he knew protoss was doing 1 gas all in..despite that he drones instead of doing army before the protoss hit, that's why it was a bit harder to hold it. The third was also late, in the current meta at 7:00 min the zerg has already a third up and roach warren: ling+roach> gate units. The only chance to win is when unscounted and poor reaction from zerg. I'm sure below diamond this build kills zerg, not in top master.
On September 23 2015 23:55 dr3am_b3ing wrote: THE ZERG KILLER BUILD:
This is Hitman's 1 Gas 7 Gate. This is, from my experience, an unstoppable push that zerg cannot deal with. If a zerg opens 15 hatch (which seems to be the meta opener), you will outright win your game so long as your opponent doesn't get a run-by of zergling into your base prior to your moving out or if your opponent denies proxy pylons/ kills your probe.
9 Pylon (at main ramp) 15 Nexus 16 Gateway 17 Pylon (part of natural wall) 17 Assimilator 20 Cybernetics Core 20 Zealot 24 Pylon 29 Warp Gate (Chrono Boost) 29 Gateway 34 Gateway (your first 2 gates after your inital gateway should act as a wall off to your natural) 34 Gateway 34 Gateway 34 Gateway 34 Gateway 34 Gateway
Probe up hard to get fast 2 base mineral saturation. You should have 16/24 probes on both nexii and 3/3 on your vespene gas as you start to move out. Your push will be unsuccessful if your opponent denies proxy pylons or kills your probe as you move out. Once you get a pylon up at your opponent's creep spread however, just warp in 7 units at a time and a-move your way to victory. You have to be pretty fast to get the exact 7 minute timing but my god does this build ever kick zerg ass. Prepare for BMs.
*EDIT*: Wanted to follow the guidelines a little more by providing some links/ pro replay references
it's 8 gates in the build order u show, but I guess it's a mistake also it will be nice to see some replays where it *worked* actually against varius zerg responses I tried twice against a 15 hatchery master guy, first time he scouted mass gates easly and won just by spamming units on 3 basese, second time, after i denied his third around 7:30, he pulled me back again (I had a proxy pylon in his third while pushing in natural, maybe this is why I lost)
Overall, i think this build isn't so good. If I have to all-in, there are several ways to do it better, this one leaves you uncovered from any cheese-all in because u have no sentry o msc back, just a zealot and dies easly from mass units from zerg who scouts it.
Will give few other tries anyway
edit: confirmed, it sucks. better do blinkers or some other things than this
Did you not see the video? Pig played like a literal god, micro'd and macro'd perfectly and still had an EXTREMELY difficult time holding it. Against any zerg that doesn't display 100% of that skill, you would surely win!
1 min later later you can hit with +1 and blink. The pig guy scout nothing, just the wall, he knew protoss was doing 1 gas all in..despite that he drones instead of doing army before the protoss hit, that's why it was a bit harder to hold it. The third was also late, in the current meta at 7:00 min the zerg has already a third up and roach warren: ling+roach> gate units. The only chance to win is when unscounted and poor reaction from zerg. I'm sure below diamond this build kills zerg, not in top master.
Btw im glad if it works for you
You contradicted yourself. You said PiG didn't scout, as if it was his weakness, and then following that say that he already knows that its a 1 gas all-in. How can you critize PiG for not scouting if he already knows what's happening. Also, PiG only made 37 Drones, which is already really small.
The only chance to win is when unscounted and poor reaction from zerg. I'm sure below diamond this build kills zerg, not in top master.
PiG, a GM player, knew it was coming and and some amazing micro and he still almost lost. I think you give Pig far too little credit than he deserves. Edit: at 3:11 you can see that he sees the gateway. I don't understand why you said he didn't scout. 3:15 at 6 minutes, he throws down a roach warren, which is safe and standard for zerg to hold off rushes I will give you merit if your arguments hold up, but I feel that they don't.
scouting 2 gate on wall means pretty nothing, you know? it could be a standard gate expand, into robo, into stargate, into twilight... so it's blind. Pig just knew the player and know he do usually 1 gas all in but despite that, he reacted very poorly imho. He did a 16 pool and a 6:45 third. He kept droning instead of massing units (since he knew an all in was coming).
From what I see, zergs always open 15 hatch 14 pool, or pool first, then take third around 5 mins and put on roach warren very fast. Attacking with gate units, with no upgrade, with no blink, it's pretty a suicide, at least at same skill level. Also, this build is pretty bad because you have no units until 7:00 mark...
I'm not arguing about Pig is good or not, he won despite his build wasn't ideal for this all in. I'm just sayng this all-in is not viable and expecially not a kill zerg build.
If you say this build is good, please link me few vods at master level where you win. I will gladly change my idea. As said before, i tried this several times, and was close to victory only when zerg didn't scout it.
On September 28 2015 17:20 Icekin wrote: scouting 2 gate on wall means pretty nothing, you know? it could be a standard gate expand, into robo, into stargate, into twilight... so it's blind. Pig just knew the player and know he do usually 1 gas all in but despite that, he reacted very poorly imho. He did a 16 pool and a 6:45 third. He kept droning instead of massing units (since he knew an all in was coming).
From what I see, zergs always open 15 hatch 14 pool, or pool first, then take third around 5 mins and put on roach warren very fast. Attacking with gate units, with no upgrade, with no blink, it's pretty a suicide, at least at same skill level. Also, this build is pretty bad because you have no units until 7:00 mark...
I'm not arguing about Pig is good or not, he won despite his build wasn't ideal for this all in. I'm just sayng this all-in is not viable and expecially not a kill zerg build.
If you say this build is good, please link me few vods at master level where you win. I will gladly change my idea. As said before, i tried this several times, and was close to victory only when zerg didn't scout it
why do you mention pool first/14 vs 16 pool? pool timing has nothing to do with holding this type of attack, earlier pools are literally only for safety against proxy and cannon rush/being aggressive with lings. 15h 16p is the optimal opener for anything else, you don't build the roach warren or cut drones anywhere near the time when the pool finishes...
Yo if you guys actually can't beat a zerg with the 7 gate 1 gas, your timing is either too slow or you aren't microing properly. Not to mention the multiple variants of this build can be done (getting +1, adding a warp prism, etc.). This is just the simplest version of the build as it's only 7 gates, no deviation in upgrades/ units/ whatever.
EPT
