EPTShield is better than air armor simply because it affects all protoss units and buildings. If you go for an air transition, the priority is air weapons = shields >> air armor
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 363
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
Shield is better than air armor simply because it affects all protoss units and buildings. If you go for an air transition, the priority is air weapons = shields >> air armor | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On September 07 2015 01:20 SnakeDoctor wrote: Hi, I'm diamond protoss with abysmal 33% winrate against protoss. I usually open 2gate into exp and then depending on scouting I'll go robo or twilight. If I don't fuck up too badly I can hold any early push from anything but stargate. It seems whatever my stargate playing opponent does I'm dead. Oracle (which I can defend against) into Void rays + gateways units; I'm dead. Pheonixes; double dead. Should I blindly go Stargate to counter opponents potential stargate? If so, what would my build order be? What should my composition be if I went 2gate - exp - robo or 2gate - exp - TC against stargate play? It's very hard to go 2 gate expand and scout your opponent's tech before you can place down yours. The only scouting moment is when you probe scout at 4:00. In general you won' t see anything so you need to proceed with your blind 2 gate expand into robo. If you do this, it's kinda a build order loss vs Stargate but you can still win. You just need to warp in stalkers continuously from 2 gates while getting blink and building probes. Remember to scout if your opponent is going all in or expanding. A void ray all in is a bad push, because you can overcharge your natural twice and after that you should have a ton of blink stalkers. Only way it can work is if it was a proxy Stargate which dealt reasonable damage. Phoenix is a pain but if you warp in as many stalkers as you can you shouldn't take too much damage before blink is finished. 2 gate expo into Stargate is bad because you will lose to blink very easily, which is the most common opening at least at a high enough level. You might also still lose to 1 base Stargate because you have it later. To be honest if you fast expand you need to get the blind robo (unless you scout the Stargate at 4:00 with your probe) and hope that your opponent didn't go Stargate. But since blink is much more popular this shouldn't be such a bad gamble. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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_Lapack
Japan17 Posts
On September 07 2015 11:01 KingAlphard wrote: It's very hard to go 2 gate expand and scout your opponent's tech before you can place down yours. The only scouting moment is when you probe scout at 4:00. In general you won' t see anything so you need to proceed with your blind 2 gate expand into robo. If you do this, it's kinda a build order loss vs Stargate but you can still win. You just need to warp in stalkers continuously from 2 gates while getting blink and building probes. Remember to scout if your opponent is going all in or expanding. A void ray all in is a bad push, because you can overcharge your natural twice and after that you should have a ton of blink stalkers. Only way it can work is if it was a proxy Stargate which dealt reasonable damage. Phoenix is a pain but if you warp in as many stalkers as you can you shouldn't take too much damage before blink is finished. 2 gate expo into Stargate is bad because you will lose to blink very easily, which is the most common opening at least at a high enough level. You might also still lose to 1 base Stargate because you have it later. To be honest if you fast expand you need to get the blind robo (unless you scout the Stargate at 4:00 with your probe) and hope that your opponent didn't go Stargate. But since blink is much more popular this shouldn't be such a bad gamble. Basically I agree with KingAlphard. You can't expect to know his tech choice, so you have to get robo after expansion if you want to be safe. However I think proxy Oracle into 3gate/2or3 Void Ray all-in is kind of scary enough to worth discussion. He will try to bait your overcharge on main nexus with oracle, and then all in with void ray + gateway before 2nd overcharge is available. (And if his oracle is alive, you have to place 2+ stalkers on your main even if you know you are probably gonna be all-in'ed) Honestly I'm not too experienced with such situation, but some tips are:
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
If you fail to scout proxy oracle (unlucky scout on 4 player map), and you opened with sentries, you might take lots of damage from the first oracle and at the same time you don't know if your opponent is committing to an all in or going into a standard game. But I would say that this falls into the category of PvP coinflips you can't do much about. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
What is the ideal response when you're opening 13 gate 17 nexus and you scout a 14-15 pool? More specifically, when should you get your zealot in this situation? Are you supposed to change your build at all? What I see pros do against hatch first is generally: second pylon starts a wall at natural, double gas, cybercore as part of your wall, and finally either a zealot (that comes out at about 4:30) or a stalker. But if you do this against a pool first opener, your second pylon and cybercore will be exposed and there will be 4-6 lings in your mineral line before your zealot is even out. What I currently have in mind is, perhaps build my second pylon in my main, then go first gas, zealot, cybercore next to gateway to create a wall at my main ramp, and second gas. Is this too conservative? Is there a better way to deal with this situation (maybe something involving chrono boost? not sure if it's even worth it though)? Another question - if you open 15 nexus 15 gate (15 scout), how do you deal with this situation? Is going nexus gate against pool first worth it (e.g. you're playing someone who usually opens pool first), or is 13 gate 17 nexus considered a better opener in this case? Lastly, since 15 nexus 15 gate is a build that gets destroyed by early pool openers, would it be a good idea to build my first gateway and cybercore at my natural in this case? And how would this affect my response to 14-15 pool openers? | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
EDIT: Zealot should be out by the time lings can reach your mineral line. But even if it comes a few seconds later you can just micro your probes. Yes 15 nexus 15 gate is very good against pool first, some people might even say it's a build order win. Again you just need the 2nd pylon inside your main and you're fine like with the 13gate opener except you have a much faster nexus. Getting the gateway down in the low ground is even worse against early pools, the opponent can just kill your wall off even if you get it up in time. It's only good against 14/14 , in every other situation I would say having the 1st pylon in the high ground is better. I think you might have some more trouble against 14/15 pool as well, though your zealot spawn is closer to the wall so the risk of losing pylons is reduced compared to 1st pylon in the high ground/2nd in the low ground. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
Rain seems to get his cybercore in his main when he does that. So I guess he wants a slightly quicker wall without an exposed cybercore? But that still doesn't answer the pool first question. Found another replay of that now, but this time it was sOs against Byul. So sOs went for the 13 gateway at the natural with a 13 scout as well, but built his cybercore at the natural. Kind of an odd trend. By the way, you're saying nexus gate is superior to pool first. So if you want to pylon scout, wouldn't it be better to build your pylon in your main and go gate nexus if there's no early pool, even if it's a pool first opener? Because I've just noticed sOs went nexus forge (rather than 13 forge or gateway + 13 scout) several times in season 2 as well. Most of the times people pylon scout, they build their first pylon at their wall, but that seems disadvantageous since nexus gateway is solid against hatch first and arguably better than pool first. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
Obviously gateway-nexus is also much safer against early pools. The core in the main depends on scouting info, if you're playing against 14/14 you get it in the natural, otherwise it's not mandatory to rushing a wall off and naturally it's very good to have your core in the main, both because it won't get sniped (super annoying) and because it will be harder for your opponent to scout if you put chronos on it. However it's not like it's wrong to get the core in the natural, which can help because you can fully prevent slow lings from suicide scouting inside your base early on. So now you might be asking yourself: why do you get the core in the low ground against hatch first then? Well, because you still need a wall off by 6:00 (standard hatch first speed timing), and if you don't get at least 1 pylon+1 building in the natural (either core or gate) you might have to expose your tech in the wall, or get early gateways/forge which will delay your natural gases timing or other things. I thought we were talking about 15 nexus 15 gate scout after the nexus. If we're talking about 9 pylon scout, it's a completely different thing. If you pylon scout and see hatch first, there's no reason not to go nexus gate. If you scout pool first, going nexus-gate or gate-nexus is slightly greedy, because since you scouted so early, your zealot will come out about 10 seconds late. I think here it really depends on where you started your first pylon, High ground, go nexus gate. Low ground, go nexus forge. (by the way, I only pylon scout on 4 player maps, I don't know why you would do that on 2 player maps). | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
More importantly though, how do you change your build if you go 13 gate on the low ground and the zerg opens 14 pool? Because going double gas core before a zealot (as you mentioned in the first reply) means lings will get inside your base before your zealot comes out. The reason I'm asking this is, if you go 13 gate 17 nexus and don't get an earlier zealot in this situation, it's pretty much the same as opening nexus gate with a gateway on the low ground. In other words, it doesn't help you deal with the lings and your economy is slightly worse. On September 12 2015 19:59 KingAlphard wrote: I thought we were talking about 15 nexus 15 gate scout after the nexus. If we're talking about 9 pylon scout, it's a completely different thing. If you pylon scout and see hatch first, there's no reason not to go nexus gate. If you scout pool first, going nexus-gate or gate-nexus is slightly greedy, because since you scouted so early, your zealot will come out about 10 seconds late. I think here it really depends on where you started your first pylon, High ground, go nexus gate. Low ground, go nexus forge. (by the way, I only pylon scout on 4 player maps, I don't know why you would do that on 2 player maps). Yeah, the question about whether pylon scout into nexus gate or nexus forge is just something I was thinking about. Most players build their pylon on the low ground when they pylon scout, but I thought maybe it would be better to build a pylon in your main if nexus gate is considered good against 14 pools. By the way, is there a specific reason to open 15 nexus 15 gate instead of spending 3 chronos on probes and going up 16-17 nexus 17 gate? I mean, it's a greedy opener after all. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
Yeah, that gateway on the low ground is similar to the 11 gate PartinG has been doing. It makes a lot of sense against 3 hatch openers. More importantly though, how do you change your build if you go 13 gate on the low ground and the zerg opens 14 pool? Because going double gas core before a zealot (as you mentioned in the first reply) means lings will get inside your base before your zealot comes out. The reason I'm asking this is, if you go 13 gate 17 nexus and don't get an earlier zealot in this situation, it's pretty much the same as opening nexus gate with a gateway on the low ground. In other words, it doesn't help you deal with the lings and your economy is slightly worse. I never open with gateway in the low ground, but in this situation yes I think you need to adjust your build. The problem is that if you get only 1 gas, your mothership core will be extremely late, which means that the lings will keep running around your bases and be annoying. So I suppose the only thing you can do is to chrono the zealot instead of probes, this way you can start it a bit earlier too because you're spending less money on probes. Remember to save a chrono for the mothership core too. Yeah, the question about whether pylon scout into nexus gate or nexus forge is just something I was thinking about. Most players build their pylon on the low ground when they pylon scout, but I thought maybe it would be better to build a pylon in your main if nexus gate is considered good against 14 pools. As I said it's slightly greedy to go pylon scout nexus gate vs pool first, like if your opponent gets 6 lings instead of 4 you might already be in trouble. But I'd say it's worth the risk considering how nexus gate is much stronger than nexus forge if you can get away with it. By the way, is there a specific reason to open 15 nexus 15 gate instead of spending 3 chronos on probes and going up 16-17 nexus 17 gate? I mean, it's a greedy opener after all. 15 nexus is the best nexus first timing if you don't scout before, but you can go 16 gate or 17 gate, though in my opinion it's not worth the risk unless you totally expect your opponent to go hatch first. | ||
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Allred
United States352 Posts
13 scout (on 2 player maps) 15 forge (on 2 player maps) if you see an expo cancel forge and get nexus if no expansion, keep the forge, pylon block his natural and check pool timings, if he was late getting drone to natural going pool first then you are ahead with the pylon block if he is going for a 6-10 pool you have the forge to defend with easily. if he goes hatch first you have the option of not cancelling the forge and cannon rushing. If you do cancel the forge, and he scouts it and goes 3 hatch before pool you can get a fast 2 gases and cyber BO is 17 gateway 18 pylon 18 forge 18 2 assimilators build cyber when gate finishes you can then easily transition into a fast 4 gate +1 zealot into blink, or into DT's, or 2-3 stalker pressure into a fast 3rd since his ling speed will be so late. (start pressure with the first stalker and keep adding them up to 3, then retreat so you don't get a ling surround.) This setup gives you a lot of flexibility. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
1. You're forced to bring a probe all the way down to your natural and back in the main 3 times. Excluding the probe you would scout with anyway, that's about 40 minerals lost by 2:30. 2. If you have a forge and scout expansion, the best thing you can do is to keep it and cannon rush. Cancelling the forge puts you behind immediately. I don't think it's worth it to cancel even if you don't cannon rush. Overall, I would say 9 pylon 13 forge scout - cannon rush if hatch first, 17 nexus if pool first is the best way to play forge on 2 player maps. Forge is a safe opening, if you wanna play greedy just go 15 nexus 15 gate. | ||
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Treterpeter
7 Posts
16 Nexus late scout on a map like coda. I think when I go 17 gateway 17 forge (scout) 18 pylon 18 2* assimilator I can still have my sout and cannon ready for a 14 pool My question is: does my supply block screw the build? (EDIT: this is 2 probes behind while one chrono safed at minute 4 compared to 17 pylon. this is too much, right?) | ||
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
On September 15 2015 05:45 Treterpeter wrote: PvZ 16 Nexus late scout on a map like coda. I think when I go 17 gateway 17 forge (scout) 18 pylon 18 2* assimilator I can still have my sout and cannon ready for a 14 pool My question is: does my supply block screw the build? I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding but you don't need cannon to hold off 14 pool (no gas) with nexus first, good probe micro until zealot comes out should be fine. Also with the build you posted, there's no reason to go gate first then forge as there will be a gap when gate finishes and when cyber starts. It's better to just go 15/16 nexus 17 forge in this situation. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24203 Posts
Example of game where something kinda along those lines happens : Rain vs Rogue on Vaani, Starleague. I ask because I'm just starting to try and play the blink sentries style, and I've never found myself very comfortable playing aggressive, so that game caught my eye, but since I have so little understanding of the mu when the P does not open phoenix, I need your help. Thanks  | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On September 15 2015 08:50 [PkF] Wire wrote: Basically, can you play a blink style in PvZ in a rather passive way, taking a quick third behind sentries, getting an early blink and +2, but not putting committed pressure except the Z is really going nuts on drones, adding a ~10:00ish robo and then robo bay and another robo, conspicuously aiming for lategame with +3, colossi and storm rather than the mass stalker style ? Example of game where something kinda along those lines happens : Rain vs Rogue on Vaani, Starleague. I ask because I'm just starting to try and play the blink sentries style, and I've never found myself very comfortable playing aggressive, so that game caught my eye, but since I have so little understanding of the mu when the P does not open phoenix, I need your help. Thanks I'm not particularly great at the blink style in PvZ, so take this with a grain of salt, but i'll try and shed some light on this. Firstly, yeah i do think you can play it rather passively, although you have to be willing to make a lot of stalkers and delay any transition if the zerg is being really aggressive. I do think you should put on some pressure though, with the mothership core you don't to heavily commit, but it's worth posturing to deny the 4th base IMO. I really don't like the colossi transition from the blink style anymore though. Zergs are getting a lot better using vipers and those quick viper timings with roach hydra are really difficult to hold. Since the swarm host nerf, the use of colossi in PvZ is dwindling more and more. It's much better to just pump out immortals while teching to storm. This style can be a bit more vulnerable to styles where the zerg commits really heavily to roach hydra in the mid game, but if just position yourself well and be very defensive, it's very difficult for them to take a good engagement and your army quickly becomes very cost efficient. I've seen Classic (or Zest) recently been playing this sort of style very defensively recently. He goes for a quick third and +2 blink, and then he sits there with immortals and archons, and goes into tempests. In the games I've seen, this is a really strong way to pay. This composition can hold its own against the sort of popular brood lord, ultra queen styles that have emerged after the SH nerf, and if the zerg has anything less high tech, then they're probably just gonna die. It's also less susceptible to vipers which is the biggest advantage to doing this over going for colossi. (Vipers are still useful against it, but much less so). | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
The only time you SHOULD be playing passively is if they're hitting a midgame attack (like a ling/hydra timing). That's when you stay at home and get ahead by defending it. The issue with 3 base blink is that your tech is so extremely delayed that if you don't constantly pressure, the zerg is completely free to tech and expand hard and you'll find yourself less and less capable of stopping them. That makes you completely reliant on taking extremely cost effective fights and that honestly isn't always possible. People hate on Lilbow's PvZ style and I'm not the biggest fan of it either, I think against the very best zergs in the world he'll get punished extremely hard for not transitioning appropriately. But what he does that makes it so strong is exactly the above. He constantly has hallucinations (or an oracle) scouting and whenever he doesn't see an incoming attack, he's immediately out on the map, making the zerg worry about a potential attack (which he then actually does a lot, that's the part I don't like). That stops them from droning, expanding, teching too hard, all the things zerg wants to do. And especially because your tech is extremely delayed with 3 base blink, you kinda have to do it unless they're aggressive with lair tech units (thereby delaying their own tech as well). This is a bit older but basically the perfect 3 base blink PvZ. Note that most protoss open oracle into this now. + Show Spoiler + | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24203 Posts
- standard blink sentries expand. - add up to 6 gates and a robo. - scout constantly with double hallucination ; get on the map and pressure if the Z isn't committing to some kind of pressure (burrowed roaches, hydra ling...). - templar archives if the Z commits to hive for stalker immortal storm/archon, colossi if the Z stays on lair tech with ranged upgrades, all-in with blink +2 if mutas. does it look sound to you ? I've been playing phoenix openers exclusively for nearly 4 years now, so that's quite a huge change for me | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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