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The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 361
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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SodaGremlin
United States4 Posts
Cheers! | ||
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aihyur
2 Posts
On August 10 2015 03:03 Raguel wrote: In the first game you should always just delay your nexus and maybe move out at like 8-9 ish senties and 3 zealot.. you should use your mothership core to see the position of the zerling ( and send out hallucinations to his third to see if you is going to fully commit or if this is pressure( making lings or drone?) if you can see that he is making more units then you can always just cancel the nexus or make another round of zealots. ( it can be smart to counter attack if you have good trade against the lings). You were to defendsive in this game 2 cannons against pressure is to much. Second game the main reason why you lost was that you missed the forcefield. you should always have mothership core in some place were you can see his unit coming. And i think that your gateways were little bit late nr 2,3. Best way to defend is cut probes make cannons and gateway and don´t get suprise by ling attack that can surround your sentries. Have like 1-2 sentrie at natural, make 1 cannon ( use overcharge if you need more firepower) and rest of the army at yout third. mass stalkers. Ah, thank you!  | ||
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VengefulTree
Canada637 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
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hottis
19 Posts
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lxgendz
United States16 Posts
Case in point http://ggtracker.com/matches/6151045 | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
Why do you whine about playing someone who's only 1 league higher than you? It's absolutely normal. First step towards having a good macro is starting with a decent build order. It's really simple to execute a build order in the first 4 minutes of the game and in platinum, it will already give you a huge edge in the game. You basically play blind and get a full wall off + cannon before building the nexus. That's not how you play PvZ in 4 spawn maps. You need to scout after your first pylon so that you can see an early pool or 14/14 and react in time, or see a standard opening and get a nexus first / 17 nexus after the forge if you scout in the last spawn. The way you openened your economy is severely delayed, I would honestly call it autoloss considering you're playing against gasless hatch-pool-hatch, plus you're fully walled off so you'll have to destroy your gateway to walk out of your natural. Never get the core before the gases ever. It doesn't make any sense because every single thing you unlock with the core costs gas. For example, at 6:30 you have 30 probes while you would normally have 40. You oversaturated your main. At 7:30 you have 25 probes in your main and 5 in your natural, resulting in 1000 minerals/minute economy. If you had the correct saturation, i.e. 16 probes in your main and 14 in your natural, you would have 1200 minerals/minute. This means that your bad saturation makes you waste 5 probes. 9:00 why are you warping in stalkers? In PvZ you need to warp in pretty much only sentries in the early game to build up energy count for forcefields. By warping in stalkers you're simply wasting your gas. What if your opponent went for tons of speedlings? They would be completely useless. Even if he went for a roach attack, you would die because you don't have forcefields. But anyway you can't know it since you're not scouting. Scouting is extremely important because if you don't scout you're forced to play safe, so if your opponent is playing greedy you will fall behind. A third at 10:00 without putting on any kind of pressure whatsoever is too late. Normally you take it between 7:30 and 8:30. Considering your bad start 9:00 would still be acceptable. You're also building way too many probes because you're keeping your main and natural oversaturated. Basically this game you got outmacroed so hard that your opponent had time to saturate 3 bases (he didn't macro well himself, it's not like he played perfect by the way) and build an army to kill you before you have the chance to saturate 3 bases yourself. You need to learn the concept of ideal saturation. You don't want more than 16 probes in each mineral line, because after that point, the workers in excess mine less effectively. So once you reach 16 probes in a mineral line, change your rally point to a base where you aren't on 16 probes yet. If you have 16 probes on main and natural and you want to take a third, then you still build probes and once the third finishes, you transfer the workers in excess to your third. Once you're on 3 saturated bases (66 probes = 16x3 at the minerals + 3x2x3 at the gases) you stop. To sum up, if you want to play a passive game without getting outmacroed, 1) execute a decent early game build order, 2) scout actively to play as greedy as you can without dying to attacks, and 3) saturate your bases properly. | ||
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lxgendz
United States16 Posts
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iMrising
United States1099 Posts
I pretty much second everything KingAlphard said. The problems that you have in PvZ (and perhaps other matchups) lie much deeper if you want to get to diamond. Your money is kept pretty low which is good, but you could be having so much more money by having a earlier third and better saturation on both bases. Your opponent floated a lot of minerals but he out mined you anyway. Also if you're going to play passively like this, you pretty much die to some 2 base muta push. I didn't see you scout aggressively and the observer is just sitting pretty in the main. Part of what makes PvZ tough is what the Z can to do tech switch. There are so many things you could have died to because you didn't scout. Mutas would effectively end the game. Some form of 2 base all-in would have ended the game. Even a ling hydra push against your zealot colossus army ended the game simply because he had more stuff than you. Watch + Show Spoiler + To get a good idea of the PvZ metagame and an initial build order. You can switch to gateway expand if you'd like, but you can stick to forge fast expand as well. (Safe FFE is probably 14 forge, 17 nexus. After that I'm not so familiar since I don't do FFE) edit: spoiler tagged the video | ||
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VengefulTree
Canada637 Posts
Thanks | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24203 Posts
On August 26 2015 04:44 VengefulTree wrote: Is Immortal/Archon/Chargelot in the mid game still a thing in PvP and if not why has it faded out? Thanks Mostly people figuring out how to safely get colossi and a third, combined with the timewarp nerf that was crucial in keeping the colossi in range of your immortals. No one uses chargelot immortal archon as a midgame comp anymore because if you don't win with a timing you'll never be able to transition to colossi on an even footing and transitioning to tempests isn't really an option with the tempest nerf. So yeah, colossi all the day if you get a macro game. | ||
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iMrising
United States1099 Posts
On August 26 2015 05:10 [PkF] Wire wrote: Mostly people figuring out how to safely get colossi and a third, combined with the timewarp nerf that was crucial in keeping the colossi in range of your immortals. No one uses chargelot immortal archon as a midgame comp anymore because if you don't win with a timing you'll never be able to transition to colossi on an even footing and transitioning to tempests isn't really an option with the tempest nerf. So yeah, colossi all the day if you get a macro game. what are some of the keys in defending such a push then? | ||
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
On August 26 2015 09:42 iMrising wrote: what are some of the keys in defending such a push then? Basically just use your collossi to kite his army with a timewarp on it if you can. By the time you actually engage the advantage he had(more charglots) is gone. The only other advantage he has is archons and maybe more immortals but since your zealots are probably still alive his army is quite bad vs yours. If you dont kite and he catches you out of position before you have a high enough collossus count though his army is very strong. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On August 26 2015 13:05 -HuShang- wrote: Basically just use your collossi to kite his army with a timewarp on it if you can. By the time you actually engage the advantage he had(more charglots) is gone. The only other advantage he has is archons and maybe more immortals but since your zealots are probably still alive his army is quite bad vs yours. If you dont kite and he catches you out of position before you have a high enough collossus count though his army is very strong. I've been going colossi lately and I agree that time warp is probably really strong if used that way. However, the immortal archon player could still attempt to feedback the msc with the aid of a warp prism. Just a thought. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24203 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24203 Posts
On August 27 2015 23:33 KingAlphard wrote: You shouldn't die to a base immortal archon push if you're still on 2 bases anyway. And a wall can buy some time but it's not great against immortals, I'd only go for it against pure chargelot/archon. You surely know better than me but at my modest level a wall has saved me more than once while going colossi against chargelot archons immortals. If you have thermal lance it's very risky for him to try and bust your wall, but he has no choice since in the current meta there is zero transition from chargelot archon immortal. Dunno, all I know is that it works for me, maybe it doesn't at high levels but I guess lower players should give it a try and then figure out themselves if they find it useful or not. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
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Icekin
88 Posts
I'm try to learn blink sentry style in pvz but i have lots of problems, mainly because I can't find out the proper early build order. I read a 2014 topic here about that style, but it seems a bit outdated to me so i'm asking advice here. Let's say I want to start greedy with nexus gate: what's the nexus timing? 15 or 17 supply? when shall I cut probes? After the nexus, it's gate forge on the wall and produce units with 2 gates? Also, I loose to roach burrow or mutas because i do no robotics or stargate: can I stay passive with this style on 3 bases waiting for tech switch (robo/sg) ? This because if I get cought out of position it's a loose. Is there a precise timing to hit and how many stalkers should I have? | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
9 pylon, 13 gate (scout), 17 nexus, 17 pylon, 18 double gas, Core, zealot& mothership core. @100 gas continuous sentry production (all chrono on probes though), then add 2 gateways into 2 gases at the natural (~6:30) and keep putting all your gas into sentries, ~7:00 forge, ~7:40 3rd base, +1, 2 pylon/2 gate/cannon wall off at the third, twilight council, then react according to your hallucination scout. ~7:40 (when you take the third) you should have about 60 supply and 46 probes. what's the nexus timing? 15 or 17 supply? 15 if nexus first, 17 if gasless gate or forge first. After the nexus, it's gate forge on the wall and produce units with 2 gates? No you don't take a forge too early. I would say between 6:45 and 7:15 is the correct timing in a standard game. You should anticipate the forge if you're playing against an all in. Also, I loose to roach burrow or mutas because i do no robotics or stargate: can I stay passive with this style on 3 bases waiting for tech switch (robo/sg) ? This because if I get cought out of position it's a loose. As you take your third you need to scout what your opponent is doing. A good rule of thumb is that if you scout a roach warren, you get a robotics facility at your third. Otherwise you can skip it. But obviously if you're getting attacked you need to play very defensive, if you defend well you should win with a maxed out (or close to) push. Is there a precise timing to hit and how many stalkers should I have? If your opponent isn't playing aggressive himself, usually you saturate 3 bases (66 probes) then go up to 9 warpgates and start spamming stalkers offensively. But this is not always possible, it really depends on the game and your scouting info. For example, you might wanna hit a timing before vipers or another hive tech is out. | ||
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