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On July 01 2015 00:29 KingAlphard wrote:So I found out 2 useful things about the new maps. 1. Dash and Terminal backdoor wall off vs zerg: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zCdRqkm.png) 2. You can completely prevent the reaper from entering your base with this wall off on Bridgehead. That allows you to go nexus first completely safely against terran (except for proxies ofc). You can also break the debris whenever you want to get out of your base, so you will never need to destroy your own buildings. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2bUo2M3.png) Fun fact: the reaper can jump off the cliff through the bush beside the rocks, but it can't jump up.
Fucking thank you lad. D&T PvZ is the fucking worst because of that backdoor
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Wait so 15 nex can still get you a cybercore early enough to prevent the reaper from coming in on Bridgehead?
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Based on my testings yes. Core comes down at ~3:45, reaper at ~4:05.
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What's the best way to handle resource floating?
Like the obvious answer is "macro better" and that'll come with practice and fine-tuning builds, etc. But I mean the immediate answer. Say I forgot a pylon, or maybe the enemy sniped it, and I can't get my warp cycle in. What do I do with the extra cash?
Currently I tack on a few extra gates/pylons and cover up my runaway resources with bigger warp cycles. But then I start to run into a wave of too little resources, then too much, and repeat. In the lategame I manage to stabilize, but until then I feel like I'll do a push, I need reinforcements, but I don't have the money for a full round of units, and I have to retreat. Or the minute I lose focus I'll be floating money again and the process starts over.
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On July 19 2015 05:31 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
What's the best way to handle resource floating?
Like the obvious answer is "macro better" and that'll come with practice and fine-tuning builds, etc. But I mean the immediate answer. Say I forgot a pylon, or maybe the enemy sniped it, and I can't get my warp cycle in. What do I do with the extra cash?
Currently I tack on a few extra gates/pylons and cover up my runaway resources with bigger warp cycles. But then I start to run into a wave of too little resources, then too much, and repeat. In the lategame I manage to stabilize, but until then I feel like I'll do a push, I need reinforcements, but I don't have the money for a full round of units, and I have to retreat. Or the minute I lose focus I'll be floating money again and the process starts over.
Adding too many gates is rarely a good idea... As you say, you won't be able to use them after one big cycle and then you'll have invested a big amount of money in production facilities you cannot afford to use.
When something unfortunate like this happens (two or more pylons get sniped, etc) and I'm really banking money I add pylons (up to 4-5) and chrono my production facilities to accelerate the second production round. If you have tech/researches planned you can make them a bit quicker too, though that can be a bit risky and leave you vulnerable in some situations. But tbh there is no real good answer, this is just an annoying thing that should not usually happen. Getting supply blocked is actually pretty huge, especially in early/mid game.
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Banking more resources than normal is not a terrible mistake when it happens because you were busy microing on the other side of the map. When it happens to me, I usually start everything I can (upgrades, units, etc.) and even get additional tech structures (for example a dark shrine). If you get badly supply blocked it's the same thing except the first thing you do is you start 2-3 pylons.
Having more gateways than usual isn't a bad thing in low leagues because at least it helps you spend all your money. It's better to spend extra resources in gateways than to bank them because your macro isn't good enough.
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In general over probing and over pyloning to spend your money is better than the contrary. You will actually see a lot of pros having non optimal production in intense situations just because they naturally prioritize probes and pylones over the rest.
And also the best way to spend your money is making stalkers, they cost a fucking shit tons of money.
If you're easily distracted from macroing adding 1-2 more gates than optimal is fine, don't feel too bad when you don't have enough money to use those last 2 warpgates.
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so how do you beat gold bases especially terraform. watched stardust lose to mid master zerg 3 times in a row with gold base. its a free advantage for zerg. gold base has already payed off even if u do the fastest possible allin. if i cannon rush, they cancel and take their normal nat. im so lost...
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So, on 4 player maps I like to go nexus first, because I cannot reliably scout and punish or react to a zerg that goes for a 3 hatch before pool play.
But theres a problem if the zerg goes for some early ling rush. My current response to fast zerglings is to cancel all my shit, proxy a base on the map, proxy a forge, and a pylon and try to get a cannon wall up so they can't kill me with their mass zerglings.
Here's a replay of it working out well.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6124105
Here's a replay of it not working out and me being scouted.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6124105
My assumption when i make this play is that my opponent is most likely not strong in a macro game because they are doing a very risky play on a 4 player map. If they don't scout me in time, their rush is pretty much going to hit too late because I will have a zealot out. Thus, I try to drag out the game to a macro state.
Is there any other way to handle these early pools on a 4 player map? Perhaps with building placement or earlier gateway timing?
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What all-ins you recommend for PvZ and PvT. Should i ban 4 player maps or these with backdoor?.
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What about preemptive defensive positioning of gateway units on the current ladder maps? Is there something such as optimal positioning?
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On August 02 2015 10:52 AkashSky wrote:So, on 4 player maps I like to go nexus first, because I cannot reliably scout and punish or react to a zerg that goes for a 3 hatch before pool play. But theres a problem if the zerg goes for some early ling rush. My current response to fast zerglings is to cancel all my shit, proxy a base on the map, proxy a forge, and a pylon and try to get a cannon wall up so they can't kill me with their mass zerglings. Here's a replay of it working out well. http://ggtracker.com/matches/6124105Here's a replay of it not working out and me being scouted. http://ggtracker.com/matches/6124105My assumption when i make this play is that my opponent is most likely not strong in a macro game because they are doing a very risky play on a 4 player map. If they don't scout me in time, their rush is pretty much going to hit too late because I will have a zealot out. Thus, I try to drag out the game to a macro state. Is there any other way to handle these early pools on a 4 player map? Perhaps with building placement or earlier gateway timing?
Nexus first is very risky. It's up to you to determine if the build order advantage is worth the build order losses you will get by early pools/1 base speedling all ins. You can hold 14/14 on cactus by putting the first pylon in the low ground like you did in the replay, but you still lose to early pools.
The only safe builds on 4 player maps are 1 gate core expand and forge. The advantage of forge is that many people go hatch first so you can cannon rush as well. The advantage of 1 gate expand is that you don't need to scout very early and you have better tech.
my opponent is most likely not strong in a macro game because they are doing a very risky play on a 4 player map
This isn't true, he isn't necessarily doing this every single game just because he did it to you once.
Proxying a base is something which isn't supposed to work. I saw the replay and clearly your opponent made huge decision making mistakes in the early game. He wasted so much time targeting wrong buildings when he could have killed all your probes before you had the money to rebuild anything. This would never work against a decent opponent.
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EDIT: quoted myself instead of editing lol, still have to get used to the new design
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Any suggestions for preventing / correctly reacting to the following type of cannon rush (in a PvP) on Coda (image and replay link are included below):
1) one pylon is placed in the base below the reaper wall (i.e., not in the main),
2a) the first cannon is placed adjacent to the reaper cliff (so the number of probes which can attack it is limited, not to mention the long travel time between our mineral line and this cannon's location)
2b) at the same time that the first cannon is started on the low ground, a pylon is started in our main at the top of the reaper cliff
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dxn3Go9.png)
I feel I'm in a very bad spot if my opponent is able to simultaneously start the low ground cannon and the high ground pylon.
Scouting-wise, I scout with my 13-gateway-building probe around my base for proxies - as you can see in the replay, I did eventually get to this spot but it was toward the end of my scouting probe's path - at which point (it seemed like) it was too late.
Here is the replay of this particular game.
I generally don't have issues with cannon rushes as I typically scout them early. What is a bit puzzling about this situation is that it's practically impossible for me to force a cancel (or kill) the low-ground cannon, once it's started.
Any help would be much appreciated!
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That game was won from you, he had no cannons in range of the nexus and you had a stalker popping out with enough resources to start more... Not sure why you left there.
It's a really bad cannon rush because it's way too far away from your nexus. If you get a standard 18 core and chrono stalkers out you should be fine. Overall, any cannon rush where you need a 3rd pylon to build cannons in range of the nexus can be easily stopped simply by chronoing out stalkers. Just make sure he doesn't build "greedy cannons" which are unprotected (you can stop those by pulling 4 probes on them, or more ideally with a zealot). You actually did that in this game so that's a step in the right direction.
Do get the mothership core as well (you can delay warpgate if you don't have enough gas). It's good because even if you can't stop all the cannons from going up with your initial stalkers you will have overcharge at some point which can clean up 3-4 cannons and by then you'll have enough stalkers to break the cannon rush.
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Hello everyone,
What is the most "standard" and "overall safe" PVT oracle opening? Would it be gate/core/nexus/sg? I don't really want to go into phoenixes, I just want to be able to apply some pressure on the terran at the beginning on the game.
Do you open with two gasses or add the other gas after the nexus? Are you screwed if a reaper scouts you?
I would like to have someone that uses that style a lot for opinions.
Thank you,
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I think this is the most solid way to open 2 base stargate:
13 gate
15 2x gas (saturate slowly by rallying probes, don't go past 2x2 before starting the nexus)
17 pylon
18 core
19 zealot/cancel
21 nexus, complete the saturation on your assimilators
(continuous probe production from now on)
@100% core: 1) mothership core 2) 3rd pylon 3) stargate 4) stalker 5) warpgate
@100% stargate: 1) oracle 2) ~6:00 robotics facility 3) double assimilator on the natural , 4th pylon
If you open 1 gas before nexus your stargate will start late (4:45?) and all your tech is delayed overall (robo, robo bay, etc.) so it's not good at all I think.
If the reaper scouts your stargate you don't really care. In fact, even if the terran didn't scout you, he would still have defended mineral lines by the time a 2 base oracle hits. So the oracle will still fulfill the main purpose of scouting and picking off workers building structures here and there.
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On August 07 2015 06:27 KingAlphard wrote:
I think this is the most solid way to open 2 base stargate:
13 gate
15 2x gas (saturate slowly by rallying probes, don't go past 2x2 before starting the nexus)
17 pylon
18 core
19 zealot/cancel
21 nexus, complete the saturation on your assimilators
(continuous probe production from now on)
@100% core: 1) mothership core 2) 3rd pylon 3) stargate 4) stalker 5) warpgate
@100% stargate: 1) oracle 2) ~6:00 robotics facility 3) double assimilator on the natural , 4th pylon
If you open 1 gas before nexus your stargate will start late (4:45?) and all your tech is delayed overall (robo, robo bay, etc.) so it's not good at all I think.
If the reaper scouts your stargate you don't really care. In fact, even if the terran didn't scout you, he would still have defended mineral lines by the time a 2 base oracle hits. So the oracle will still fulfill the main purpose of scouting and picking off workers building structures here and there.
Thank you for tout time!
Does anyone have experience with this slow oracle play in the current meta? Is it worth it?
Thanks!
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I'm completely new to TL and I have no idea where to post about this issue, but I'm guessing here is fine.
I'm a high master on EU server pushing for GM right now but my PvZ is completely blocking me. To me it just feels like, if I FFE, I'm behind to fast greedy 3rd plays, if I gateway expand I lose or fall behind to early ling pressure.
I want to go for the french PvZ style but I can't figure out how to get through zerg's aggression. I can play late-game really really well so it's all about surviving for me, but I always die to the timing pushes between 9:00 to 11:00 and I feel completely helpless trying to defend them.
Here is one replay where my opponent build 30 lings to contain me on 2 base while he drones up his 3rd. I don't really know what I could've done, I wanted to push out and pressure his 3rd but it's basically impossible vs 30 lings. I try to expand and pressure his 3rd, but he kills my expansion and forces me to all-in, then I just lose.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6133998
In this one I scouted him 2nd position on Iron fortress but all I end up seeing is his natural hatch and 2 lings killing my probe (successfully so). I expect ling all-in/pressure and try to play safe by getting an extra zealot. But he didn't build any more lings and played really greedy instead, getting an early 3rd and saturating it really fast.
He attacks at ~9:00 with mass roach ling and I just eventually get overwhelmed. Again, I'm not sure what I could've done. Even my opponent didn't seem to know.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6133999
Also, are there any specific builds that work really well on Moonlight Madness?
Thanks in advance for any advice.
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On August 10 2015 02:34 aihyur wrote:I'm completely new to TL and I have no idea where to post about this issue, but I'm guessing here is fine. I'm a high master on EU server pushing for GM right now but my PvZ is completely blocking me. To me it just feels like, if I FFE, I'm behind to fast greedy 3rd plays, if I gateway expand I lose or fall behind to early ling pressure. I want to go for the french PvZ style but I can't figure out how to get through zerg's aggression. I can play late-game really really well so it's all about surviving for me, but I always die to the timing pushes between 9:00 to 11:00 and I feel completely helpless trying to defend them. Here is one replay where my opponent build 30 lings to contain me on 2 base while he drones up his 3rd. I don't really know what I could've done, I wanted to push out and pressure his 3rd but it's basically impossible vs 30 lings. I try to expand and pressure his 3rd, but he kills my expansion and forces me to all-in, then I just lose. http://ggtracker.com/matches/6133998In this one I scouted him 2nd position on Iron fortress but all I end up seeing is his natural hatch and 2 lings killing my probe (successfully so). I expect ling all-in/pressure and try to play safe by getting an extra zealot. But he didn't build any more lings and played really greedy instead, getting an early 3rd and saturating it really fast. He attacks at ~9:00 with mass roach ling and I just eventually get overwhelmed. Again, I'm not sure what I could've done. Even my opponent didn't seem to know. http://ggtracker.com/matches/6133999Also, are there any specific builds that work really well on Moonlight Madness? Thanks in advance for any advice.
In the first game you should always just delay your nexus and maybe move out at like 8-9 ish senties and 3 zealot.. you should use your mothership core to see the position of the zerling ( and send out hallucinations to his third to see if you is going to fully commit or if this is pressure( making lings or drone?) if you can see that he is making more units then you can always just cancel the nexus or make another round of zealots. ( it can be smart to counter attack if you have good trade against the lings). You were to defendsive in this game 2 cannons against pressure is to much.
Second game the main reason why you lost was that you missed the forcefield. you should always have mothership core in some place were you can see his unit coming. And i think that your gateways were little bit late nr 2,3. Best way to defend is cut probes make cannons and gateway and don´t get suprise by ling attack that can surround your sentries. Have like 1-2 sentrie at natural, make 1 cannon ( use overcharge if you need more firepower) and rest of the army at yout third. mass stalkers.
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EPT
