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On August 29 2015 04:36 Icekin wrote:
hi there
I'm try to learn blink sentry style in pvz but i have lots of problems, mainly because I can't find out the proper early build order. I read a 2014 topic here about that style, but it seems a bit outdated to me so i'm asking advice here.
Let's say I want to start greedy with nexus gate: what's the nexus timing? 15 or 17 supply? when shall I cut probes?
After the nexus, it's gate forge on the wall and produce units with 2 gates?
Also, I loose to roach burrow or mutas because i do no robotics or stargate: can I stay passive with this style on 3 bases waiting for tech switch (robo/sg) ? This because if I get cought out of position it's a loose.
Is there a precise timing to hit and how many stalkers should I have?
adding on to what kingalphard said you generally want to get forge AFTER your 2nd and 3rd gates. You always want your 3 gates and warpgate to line up so you can warpin 3 sentries at a time.
As for mutas, u shouldnt really get surprised by this with endless hallucinations, unless its a proxy spire. In most cases, when you see a spire you should attack as soon as possible as this is when zerg is the most vulnerable.
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On August 29 2015 05:49 KingAlphard wrote:I'd say the standard is something like this: 9 pylon, 13 gate (scout), 17 nexus, 17 pylon, 18 double gas, Core, zealot& mothership core. @100 gas continuous sentry production (all chrono on probes though), then add 2 gateways into 2 gases at the natural (~6:30) and keep putting all your gas into sentries, ~7:00 forge, ~7:40 3rd base, +1, 2 pylon/2 gate/cannon wall off at the third, twilight council, then react according to your hallucination scout. ~7:40 (when you take the third) you should have about 60 supply and 46 probes. 15 if nexus first, 17 if gasless gate or forge first. Show nested quote +After the nexus, it's gate forge on the wall and produce units with 2 gates? No you don't take a forge too early. I would say between 6:45 and 7:15 is the correct timing in a standard game. You should anticipate the forge if you're playing against an all in. Show nested quote +
Also, I loose to roach burrow or mutas because i do no robotics or stargate: can I stay passive with this style on 3 bases waiting for tech switch (robo/sg) ? This because if I get cought out of position it's a loose.
As you take your third you need to scout what your opponent is doing. A good rule of thumb is that if you scout a roach warren, you get a robotics facility at your third. Otherwise you can skip it. But obviously if you're getting attacked you need to play very defensive, if you defend well you should win with a maxed out (or close to) push. If your opponent isn't playing aggressive himself, usually you saturate 3 bases (66 probes) then go up to 9 warpgates and start spamming stalkers offensively. But this is not always possible, it really depends on the game and your scouting info. For example, you might wanna hit a timing before vipers or another hive tech is out.
Thanks really a lot.
As guessed i was doing an incorrect opening! the post cleared all my doubts
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I have another question!
How to deal with the factory reactor play that involves a first drop with 4 mines, and then mine drops almost every minutes?
The terrans does a reaper exp, 1/1/1 then switch factory with rax to pump out fast 4 mines. The first drop is around 7:30 timing or a little before. After mine shoots terrans abuse protoss lack of units to take mines and drop again, while from base another medivac comes with other mines.
VOD here + Show Spoiler + (maru vs MyuNgSiK, the drop comes later because maru saw stargate and did some marines)
At 7:30 timing, Protoss is teching to robo bay or blink, and has few units ( msc+3 stalker and few obs). 2 mines in 2 mineral lines will pull out lot of mining time and can still do damage if reaction is not really fast. But the main problem is the follow up: more and more mines drop, that cripple protoss eco, while terran can safely do a third base.
After few drop, when i get some stalkers and a colossus out, he just come in base with stimmed bio and take the free win.
Aside from opening stargate that gives u great advantage against this opening, what could I do when I open much standard blink or robo?
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This zerg (master) player called me an idiot and after the game he said that I was bad.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6164924
Could someone help me by telling me what I did wrong and what I can improve on?
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On September 02 2015 07:49 Bloody wrote:This zerg (master) player called me an idiot and after the game he said that I was bad. http://ggtracker.com/matches/6164924Could someone help me by telling me what I did wrong and what I can improve on?
Hi I'm a protoss player and watched your replay. My thoughts are:
- You should build pylon before gateway when you open with nexus into forge, so that you have less supply block and so more probes.
- 1st pylon location: There should be 1 grid space between 1st pylon and the rock. Then you can wall off with Forge+Gateway (both on left of pylon) and zealot. Your simcity leaves 2 grids of space after you break the rock, which is kind of awkward.
- You should probe scout his 3rd hatchery ~5:00. If he doesn't have 3rd hatch, he might be going for ling/bane all in or roach/ling all in. If then you want 2+ cannons and chronoboosted sentry production.
- Tbh I don't like MSC scout, which is less informative if you probe scout his 3rd hatch. But it might be matter of preference though.
- You moved out with 2 sentries, with 2 grids space in front of your 2nd ramp. I think its too risky because there might be like 20+ speedlings and aiming for run-by or killing sentries. You should:
- Have 1 zealot or sentry holding on entrance of your natural
- Have your MSC with your sentries for emergency recall
I'm not a native English speaker so excuse me if my writing is poor.
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Ok thanks. But pylon before gateway slows down my cyber and sentries incase of an all-in?
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No, always go 17 pylon - 19 gateway. If you go gateway first you slow down your probe production way too much. Against pool first I even get the cannon first (after the pylon), it really doesn't make much difference. If you're going forge first you're not basing your early game on getting an early tech anyway.
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Italy12246 Posts
If you're doing a warpgate timing of FFE for some bizarre reason (maybe you're like me and you only know 2012 builds) i'd go gate first, otherwise yes always pylon first. Your first sentries aren't delayed significantly, but warpgate might be like 10 seconds behind which is a pretty big deal if you're going 4-7 gate
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On September 03 2015 00:31 Teoita wrote:
If you're doing a warpgate timing of FFE for some bizarre reason (maybe you're like me and you only know 2012 builds) i'd go gate first, otherwise yes always pylon first. Your first sentries aren't delayed significantly, but warpgate might be like 10 seconds behind which is a pretty big deal if you're going 4-7 gate
No I don't do warpgate timings (if you checked my replay). Baneling bust hits very fast and not having two sentries when it hits is hard so that is why I go gateway before pylon.
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On September 03 2015 00:31 Teoita wrote:
If you're doing a warpgate timing of FFE for some bizarre reason (maybe you're like me and you only know 2012 builds) i'd go gate first, otherwise yes always pylon first. Your first sentries aren't delayed significantly, but warpgate might be like 10 seconds behind which is a pretty big deal if you're going 4-7 gate
Haven't tested but possibly the delayed probe production might ultimately delay your attack because you don't have enough income to get your gateways up in time (in spite of having the warpgate earlier). And yeah, gateway aggression off of forge is extremely out of meta.
No I don't do warpgate timings (if you checked my replay). Baneling bust hits very fast and not having two sentries when it hits is hard so that is why I go gateway before pylon.
You need to ask yourself: do you have the minerals to get the 2nd pylon after the gate, 2 assimilators (you can't build sentries off of 1 gas) AND have 150 minerals to start a core as soon as the gateway finishes? Because if you don't, you'll end up having the core started at the same timing, but having 1 probe less. I don't think the answer is yes. Even in case of a baneling bust, you should get the 2nd pylon before the gate.
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Yeah it's true so it might be decent against an all in, but against anything else it's really bad because you're about 5 probes behind at 6 minutes lol. And you scouted the pool timing/lack of gas so nothing to be worried about. Hell, you could have safely gone 16 nexus 17 gate 17 pylon skipping the forge completely upon scouting the hatch first opening.
Also don't 9 scout in 2 player maps, doesn't make sense. 13 scout is early enough.
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I 9 scout because of 6pools. 5 probes behind wow I did not know that. If it is that bad I have to change for sure.
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If you 13 scout you need to 13 forge blind to be safe. There are pros and cons to 13 scouting, but I think the pros outweigh the cons:
+ you save 40 minerals in the early game (compared to 9 scouting)
+ you can cannon rush a hatch first
- you have a later nexus by about 10 seconds against standard pool-hatch and you aren't safer .
You were 5 probes behind probably because you made other mistakes, if you played everything right you would be only 2 probes behind or something like that. Still that's 80 minerals/minute lost up until you saturate 2 bases, which is overall about 320 minerals lost in the early game.
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Italy12246 Posts
I think for ladder play, 9scout > FFE is fine but you should try to be as greedy as you can be (knowing when to go forge first vs when to go nex first, cutting a couple of probes to get a gate or pylon, etc). Iirc we covered most of that when we wrote the PvZ guide in 2012, the FFE early game section should more or less still apply.
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Hi,
I'm diamond protoss with abysmal 33% winrate against protoss.
I usually open 2gate into exp and then depending on scouting I'll go robo or twilight. If I don't fuck up too badly I can hold any early push from anything but stargate. It seems whatever my stargate playing opponent does I'm dead. Oracle (which I can defend against) into Void rays + gateways units; I'm dead. Pheonixes; double dead.
Should I blindly go Stargate to counter opponents potential stargate? If so, what would my build order be? What should my composition be if I went 2gate - exp - robo or 2gate - exp - TC against stargate play?
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Italy12246 Posts
If you fast expand you are behind basically no matter what vs stargate, that's just how it is. It shouldn't be enough to drag you to 33% win rate though, unless you play the same people over and over again and they start metagaming you.
The general response vs stargate is to build enough stalkers to be safe, go blink once you stabilize and try to harass and take map control with ~10-12 stalkers or so.
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Is double forge viable in PvZ? (Getting attack and shield upgrades at the same time)
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Italy12246 Posts
Not really, shield/armor upgrades aren't nearly as good as attack upgrades in that matchup
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but once you're done with attack upgrades, doesn't shield upgrades help an eventual transition to air units? I recall sOs going air attack + shield upgrades back in the days when voidrays were a thing, so I usually start shield and air attack upgrades once I'm done with +3 ground attack. guess sOs could easily get shield because the forge was already there, where getting air armor would require another cybercore, so I'm not sure if air armor is better than shield or if it's the other way around.
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EPT
