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[D] SC2 Notes: Some PvP DT builds

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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1 2 Next All
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-03 23:00:31
September 27 2013 15:47 GMT
#1
Been playing around with DT builds in PvP trying to get some stable early games. With the addition of MsC and the ability to fend off early pressure with photon overcharge, I think DT openers are the safest way to play PvP. They can defend even the strongest of all-ins but aren't so great economically against robo-based expands, especially 1-gate FEs. Either way, they're worth throwing into your repertoire of builds for their flexibility and stability.

Links:
TL thread: Modern DT Expand

Rain vs. Trap G1 GOMtv
Rain vs. Trap G1 Twitch

Dear vs. Rain Proleague

Dear vs. Trap G1 and G3 GOMtv
Dear vs. Trap G1 Twitch
Dear vs. Trap G3 Twitch

Economic DT Expand:
9 pylon (chronoboost x4 on nexus)
13 gate
15 double gas (3 in each gas)
17 pylon
18 core (probe scout)
21 zealot (cancel)
23 stalker (chronoboost)
23 warpgate
25 MSC
25 pylon
26 twilight (4:10)
28 stalker (chronoboost)
30 dark shrine (5:00)
32 stalker (chronoboost)
33 gate
33 proxy pylon (probe scout)
34 robo (5:50)
34 nexus (6:30)
@6:50 warp in first DTs
38 pylon


DT Rush into Expand:
9 pylon (chronoboost x4 on nexus)
13 gate
15 double gas (3 in each gas)
17 pylon
18 core
21 zealot (cancel)
21 twilight (3:50)
23 MSC
23 warpgate
25 stalker (chronoboost)
25 pylon
27 dark shrine (4:40)
30 stalker (chronoboost)
31 gate
33 stalker (chronoboost)
33 gate
33 proxy pylon (probe scout)
**chronoboost on warpgate**
34 robo (6:10)
@6:30 warp in first DT
38 nexus (7:00)
38 pylon


The only real difference between these two builds is the timing of the dark shrine and how it affects the rest of the timings. Some players choose to get a zealot or two out in place of a stalker (the gas usage is a little more efficient), but you don't necessarily need to get a zealot in order to hold off early pressure.

The MsC should scout the cliff areas around your base while your initial stalker checks your natural and then heads to the middle of the map (generally a good idea to check the watchtower if you're on a map like Yeonsu or Bel'Shir Vestige) to scout for any potential signs of aggression. The probe scout you send out initially is checking for gas counts, number of pylons, nexus energy, and whether or not an early MsC is being built. After scouting the main base, hide your probe somewhere on the map; at 6:00, after you build your proxy pylon, use that probe to scout into the main again to get a good impression of whether you're against early pressure or not.

In both build orders you can switch the order of the nexus and robo. The primary purpose of going for an early robo is so that you can fend off DTs in the case of a DT mirror. If you decide to go nexus first and do end up being caught in a DT mirror, build a proxy robo and try to go for a base trade.

After expanding, I like to warp in a zealot and a sentry. This not only bolsters my army in the case of some kind of delayed pressure with obs, but also allows me to get a hallucination scout later. I've also been experimenting with going up to 4 gates after expanding just to be safe against any kind of later aggression. I think twilight/DT builds generally transition into Immortal/Archon/Chargelot best, but it's possible to go into anything if you do some serious economic damage early on.

On September 28 2013 04:50 vhapter wrote:
I'm not sure if I sent you these links, but here are some extra vods of DT + robo + nexus:

Parting vs YongHwa
Description: Parting goes fast twillight (before units) --> stalker --> dark shrine + gateway--> stalker --> 5:30 robo --> expand (vs 1 gate FE)
Youtube Link

Squirtle vs YongHwa
Description: DT mirror - standard twillight timings (after first unit) --> 2 gate robo + nexus with slightly different timings
http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_osl/c/2485859

By the way, if you went for the fast twilight build you didn't overbuild units or gateways, you can get your nexus before your robo and still be fairly safe - 5:45ish nexus, 6:00-6:10 robo. I think you can get a sentry after your initial DT warp in and still get an observer out, but I'm not entirely sure. Anything besides 2 gates and 2 stalkers delays your robo and expansion though, that's for sure.

_
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
vhapter
Profile Joined May 2010
Brazil677 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-27 20:04:53
September 27 2013 19:50 GMT
#2
I'm not sure if I sent you these links, but here are some extra vods of DT + robo + nexus:

Parting vs YongHwa
Description: Parting goes fast twillight (before units) --> stalker --> dark shrine + gateway--> stalker --> 5:30 robo --> expand (vs 1 gate FE)
http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_osl/c/2485827

Squirtle vs YongHwa
Description: DT mirror - standard twillight timings (after first unit) --> 2 gate robo + nexus with slightly different timings
http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_osl/c/2485859

By the way, if you went for the fast twilight build you didn't overbuild units or gateways, you can get your nexus before your robo and still be fairly safe - 5:45ish nexus, 6:00-6:10 robo. I think you can get a sentry after your initial DT warp in and still get an observer out, but I'm not entirely sure. Anything besides 2 gates and 2 stalkers delays your robo and expansion though, that's for sure.
To live is to fight, to fight is to live!
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-27 19:59:31
September 27 2013 19:58 GMT
#3
DT expo is ridicolously good in pvp, in fact it's one of my favourite builds. It's particularly strong in tournaments when you can exploit a predictable opponent (come to think of it, every gm i've beaten in a tournament in pvp has been me metagaming the shit out of them with dt builds).

Also i'm going to start moving these to strat and tagging them to [D].

Also sc2john, you now get to sit at the cool kids table, gratz on dat background.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
vhapter
Profile Joined May 2010
Brazil677 Posts
September 27 2013 20:03 GMT
#4
Gratz SC2Baller.
To live is to fight, to fight is to live!
tar
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany991 Posts
September 27 2013 20:30 GMT
#5
gratz! very well deserved member of the blue man group!
whoever I pick for my anti team turns gosu
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-27 22:54:58
September 27 2013 20:39 GMT
#6
Nice. Oh, and congratulations on the blue! Well deserved.
KT best KT ~ 2014
fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
September 27 2013 22:36 GMT
#7
Wow, nice promotion, for a nice poster, who did a nice post.

Damn, I am going to DT the shit out of you, ladder players!
FuriousKobu
Profile Joined November 2012
Argentina2 Posts
September 28 2013 13:19 GMT
#8
On September 28 2013 04:50 vhapter wrote:
I'm not sure if I sent you these links, but here are some extra vods of DT + robo + nexus:

Parting vs YongHwa
Description: Parting goes fast twillight (before units) --> stalker --> dark shrine + gateway--> stalker --> 5:30 robo --> expand (vs 1 gate FE)
http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_osl/c/2485827


Link don't work, here the same match casted by Tastosis.

Kommatiazo
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States579 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-28 14:09:14
September 28 2013 14:08 GMT
#9
Way to go SC2John! That blue is well earned. Your write ups are so fantastic. Terran and Zerg players have to be so jelly that us Protosses have you writing new strategy posts all the time. You're a hero man!
"You must enemy don't know, and very good micro" - Bosstoss #Wet4Ret
vhapter
Profile Joined May 2010
Brazil677 Posts
September 28 2013 22:14 GMT
#10
On September 28 2013 22:19 FuriousKobu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2013 04:50 vhapter wrote:
I'm not sure if I sent you these links, but here are some extra vods of DT + robo + nexus:

Parting vs YongHwa
Description: Parting goes fast twillight (before units) --> stalker --> dark shrine + gateway--> stalker --> 5:30 robo --> expand (vs 1 gate FE)
http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_osl/c/2485827


Link don't work, here the same match casted by Tastosis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=altSpeo0_3A

Damn, I stole his build order from that vod this very week. Thanks for sharing this new link!
To live is to fight, to fight is to live!
BoZiffer
Profile Joined November 2011
United States1841 Posts
September 29 2013 00:39 GMT
#11
Excellent stuff. I've always been a bit hesitant to open DTs for some odd reason - maybe for fear of being "cheesy" but there doesn't appear to be anything gimmicky about these builds. Thank you.
Rickyvalle21
Profile Joined July 2012
United States320 Posts
September 29 2013 03:19 GMT
#12
Is the zealot cancel for a possible 2 gate proxy?
people say practice is perfect but if nothing is perfect whats the point in practicing?
Rickyvalle21
Profile Joined July 2012
United States320 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-29 03:31:54
September 29 2013 03:29 GMT
#13
I also wanna note that you can fend of dt mirror with nexus first over robo if you hold position 2 stalkers at your ramp to buy time as demonstrated by one of Magnets replay Newkirk Precinct on his Modern Dt expand guide.
people say practice is perfect but if nothing is perfect whats the point in practicing?
Rickyvalle21
Profile Joined July 2012
United States320 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-29 03:31:17
September 29 2013 03:30 GMT
#14
Edit: accidently double post
people say practice is perfect but if nothing is perfect whats the point in practicing?
vhapter
Profile Joined May 2010
Brazil677 Posts
September 29 2013 03:37 GMT
#15
On September 29 2013 12:29 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
I also wanna note that you can fend of dt mirror with nexus first over robo if you hold position 2 stalkers at your ramp to buy time as demonstrated by one of Magnets replay Newkirk Precinct on his Modern Dt expand guide.


Depending on how late the DTs are, You don't even need to do that if you actually only get 2 stalkers + 2 gates + nexus before your robo. Your robo shouldn't go up later than 6:10 though if you want to be safe.
To live is to fight, to fight is to live!
igay
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia1178 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-29 05:03:29
September 29 2013 05:00 GMT
#16
always such solid content for all the protoss thanks alot!

also really appreciate the notes you did on dears pvz the other day!
MVP <3 MKP <3 DRG <3
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
September 29 2013 05:58 GMT
#17
On September 29 2013 12:19 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
Is the zealot cancel for a possible 2 gate proxy?


Yeah, proxy 2-gate zealots will show up around 3:30. If you see no zealots, you can cancel the zealot. This is just kind of a free safety mechanism to make sure you don't get completely off guard by a proxy 2-gate.

On September 29 2013 12:37 vhapter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 29 2013 12:29 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
I also wanna note that you can fend of dt mirror with nexus first over robo if you hold position 2 stalkers at your ramp to buy time as demonstrated by one of Magnets replay Newkirk Precinct on his Modern Dt expand guide.


Depending on how late the DTs are, You don't even need to do that if you actually only get 2 stalkers + 2 gates + nexus before your robo. Your robo shouldn't go up later than 6:10 though if you want to be safe.


Seconded. If you get a robo up around 6:00, you'll probably take A LITTLE damage from DTs even if you don't block the ramp (like 4-5 probes killed), but you won't outright lose against normally timed DTs (~7:00). Against super fast DTs (~6:40), it's possible to lose if the DTs spot the building robo and target it immediately though.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
KingAlphard
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Italy1705 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-29 07:18:56
September 29 2013 07:15 GMT
#18
How is it safe against dts if you get your robo at 6:10? It completes at 7:15 and the observer is out at 7:35. Without forcefields to hold the ramp 2 dts can easily kill the robo before the observer finishes.

What about going zealot-sentry from the first gateway instead of a stalker? That way you can hallucinate a phoenix and delay the robo if you don't scout DTs.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
September 29 2013 09:50 GMT
#19
It depends on the variation you do, those builds are only one.

Generally if you get your robo up before your nexus you can easily get the obs in time, while if you choose to delay it until after the nexus you'll take some damage but it's still playable. Unless he makes like 3dt's, your robo should survive and get an obs out.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
FuriousKobu
Profile Joined November 2012
Argentina2 Posts
October 03 2013 00:40 GMT
#20
Set 1 and 3, Dear open DTs, really good games.
http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs3/vod/80867
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