Been playing around with DT builds in PvP trying to get some stable early games. With the addition of MsC and the ability to fend off early pressure with photon overcharge, I think DT openers are the safest way to play PvP. They can defend even the strongest of all-ins but aren't so great economically against robo-based expands, especially 1-gate FEs. Either way, they're worth throwing into your repertoire of builds for their flexibility and stability.
9 pylon (chronoboost x4 on nexus) 13 gate 15 double gas (3 in each gas) 17 pylon 18 core (probe scout) 21 zealot (cancel) 23 stalker (chronoboost) 23 warpgate 25 MSC 25 pylon 26 twilight (4:10) 28 stalker (chronoboost) 30 dark shrine (5:00) 32 stalker (chronoboost) 33 gate 33 proxy pylon (probe scout) 34 robo (5:50) 34 nexus (6:30) @6:50 warp in first DTs 38 pylon
DT Rush into Expand:
9 pylon (chronoboost x4 on nexus) 13 gate 15 double gas (3 in each gas) 17 pylon 18 core 21 zealot (cancel) 21 twilight (3:50) 23 MSC 23 warpgate 25 stalker (chronoboost) 25 pylon 27 dark shrine (4:40) 30 stalker (chronoboost) 31 gate 33 stalker (chronoboost) 33 gate 33 proxy pylon (probe scout) **chronoboost on warpgate** 34 robo (6:10) @6:30 warp in first DT 38 nexus (7:00) 38 pylon
The only real difference between these two builds is the timing of the dark shrine and how it affects the rest of the timings. Some players choose to get a zealot or two out in place of a stalker (the gas usage is a little more efficient), but you don't necessarily need to get a zealot in order to hold off early pressure.
The MsC should scout the cliff areas around your base while your initial stalker checks your natural and then heads to the middle of the map (generally a good idea to check the watchtower if you're on a map like Yeonsu or Bel'Shir Vestige) to scout for any potential signs of aggression. The probe scout you send out initially is checking for gas counts, number of pylons, nexus energy, and whether or not an early MsC is being built. After scouting the main base, hide your probe somewhere on the map; at 6:00, after you build your proxy pylon, use that probe to scout into the main again to get a good impression of whether you're against early pressure or not.
In both build orders you can switch the order of the nexus and robo. The primary purpose of going for an early robo is so that you can fend off DTs in the case of a DT mirror. If you decide to go nexus first and do end up being caught in a DT mirror, build a proxy robo and try to go for a base trade.
After expanding, I like to warp in a zealot and a sentry. This not only bolsters my army in the case of some kind of delayed pressure with obs, but also allows me to get a hallucination scout later. I've also been experimenting with going up to 4 gates after expanding just to be safe against any kind of later aggression. I think twilight/DT builds generally transition into Immortal/Archon/Chargelot best, but it's possible to go into anything if you do some serious economic damage early on.
On September 28 2013 04:50 vhapter wrote: I'm not sure if I sent you these links, but here are some extra vods of DT + robo + nexus:
Parting vs YongHwa Description: Parting goes fast twillight (before units) --> stalker --> dark shrine + gateway--> stalker --> 5:30 robo --> expand (vs 1 gate FE) Youtube Link
Squirtle vs YongHwa Description: DT mirror - standard twillight timings (after first unit) --> 2 gate robo + nexus with slightly different timings http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_osl/c/2485859
By the way, if you went for the fast twilight build you didn't overbuild units or gateways, you can get your nexus before your robo and still be fairly safe - 5:45ish nexus, 6:00-6:10 robo. I think you can get a sentry after your initial DT warp in and still get an observer out, but I'm not entirely sure. Anything besides 2 gates and 2 stalkers delays your robo and expansion though, that's for sure.
I'm not sure if I sent you these links, but here are some extra vods of DT + robo + nexus:
Parting vs YongHwa Description: Parting goes fast twillight (before units) --> stalker --> dark shrine + gateway--> stalker --> 5:30 robo --> expand (vs 1 gate FE) http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_osl/c/2485827
Squirtle vs YongHwa Description: DT mirror - standard twillight timings (after first unit) --> 2 gate robo + nexus with slightly different timings http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_osl/c/2485859
By the way, if you went for the fast twilight build you didn't overbuild units or gateways, you can get your nexus before your robo and still be fairly safe - 5:45ish nexus, 6:00-6:10 robo. I think you can get a sentry after your initial DT warp in and still get an observer out, but I'm not entirely sure. Anything besides 2 gates and 2 stalkers delays your robo and expansion though, that's for sure.
DT expo is ridicolously good in pvp, in fact it's one of my favourite builds. It's particularly strong in tournaments when you can exploit a predictable opponent (come to think of it, every gm i've beaten in a tournament in pvp has been me metagaming the shit out of them with dt builds).
Also i'm going to start moving these to strat and tagging them to [D].
Also sc2john, you now get to sit at the cool kids table, gratz on dat background.
Way to go SC2John! That blue is well earned. Your write ups are so fantastic. Terran and Zerg players have to be so jelly that us Protosses have you writing new strategy posts all the time. You're a hero man!
Excellent stuff. I've always been a bit hesitant to open DTs for some odd reason - maybe for fear of being "cheesy" but there doesn't appear to be anything gimmicky about these builds. Thank you.
I also wanna note that you can fend of dt mirror with nexus first over robo if you hold position 2 stalkers at your ramp to buy time as demonstrated by one of Magnets replay Newkirk Precinct on his Modern Dt expand guide.
On September 29 2013 12:29 Rickyvalle21 wrote: I also wanna note that you can fend of dt mirror with nexus first over robo if you hold position 2 stalkers at your ramp to buy time as demonstrated by one of Magnets replay Newkirk Precinct on his Modern Dt expand guide.
Depending on how late the DTs are, You don't even need to do that if you actually only get 2 stalkers + 2 gates + nexus before your robo. Your robo shouldn't go up later than 6:10 though if you want to be safe.
On September 29 2013 12:19 Rickyvalle21 wrote: Is the zealot cancel for a possible 2 gate proxy?
Yeah, proxy 2-gate zealots will show up around 3:30. If you see no zealots, you can cancel the zealot. This is just kind of a free safety mechanism to make sure you don't get completely off guard by a proxy 2-gate.
On September 29 2013 12:29 Rickyvalle21 wrote: I also wanna note that you can fend of dt mirror with nexus first over robo if you hold position 2 stalkers at your ramp to buy time as demonstrated by one of Magnets replay Newkirk Precinct on his Modern Dt expand guide.
Depending on how late the DTs are, You don't even need to do that if you actually only get 2 stalkers + 2 gates + nexus before your robo. Your robo shouldn't go up later than 6:10 though if you want to be safe.
Seconded. If you get a robo up around 6:00, you'll probably take A LITTLE damage from DTs even if you don't block the ramp (like 4-5 probes killed), but you won't outright lose against normally timed DTs (~7:00). Against super fast DTs (~6:40), it's possible to lose if the DTs spot the building robo and target it immediately though.
How is it safe against dts if you get your robo at 6:10? It completes at 7:15 and the observer is out at 7:35. Without forcefields to hold the ramp 2 dts can easily kill the robo before the observer finishes.
What about going zealot-sentry from the first gateway instead of a stalker? That way you can hallucinate a phoenix and delay the robo if you don't scout DTs.
It depends on the variation you do, those builds are only one.
Generally if you get your robo up before your nexus you can easily get the obs in time, while if you choose to delay it until after the nexus you'll take some damage but it's still playable. Unless he makes like 3dt's, your robo should survive and get an obs out.
Oh shit, I've been quoted. Now my post looks blue! lol
On October 03 2013 10:58 gobbledydook wrote: in the DT rush opening, there is no mention of when to get warpgate. Do you get it before or after twilight council?
You're getting 6 probes on gas very early, so you're supposed to start about everything at the same time (twilight + msc + wg). If you're going for the fast dt version, building your twilight council is still the first you should do, even if you have money for everything.
You can also get 16 probes on minerals before getting a msc (extra minerals ftw). The only different this makes is that you have to buy about 20 seconds to cast photon overcharge against a 10 gate or something, which is just a matter of keeping your msc away from stalkers. But if you want 100 energy on your msc asap for some reason or more time to scout around your base with your msc - which I personally find unnecessary, at least currently -, then obviously you should get your msc right away.
On October 03 2013 10:58 gobbledydook wrote: in the DT rush opening, there is no mention of when to get warpgate. Do you get it before or after twilight council?
My bad, fixed. If it's ever not mentioned in a build order, it's generally started at the same time as the MSC.
EPT
