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On March 14 2013 05:08 Bahajinbo wrote: Which unit compositions are good for a 2 base push or a 3 base push in PvT / PvZ right now? In WoL I played a lot of CreatorPrimes 3 base timings (or sometimes 2 base timings like Immortal Sentry or 3 Colossus all-in) and I want to play like that again.
And what is your favourite way of countering the new Mutalisks? I mean, in great numbers, they are pretty much unbeatable if microed properly.
On March 14 2013 08:39 Pibacc wrote: What is a safe build vs zerg? I can forge FE pretty easily but then I have no idea when to take a third or what tech to go.
On March 14 2013 08:52 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 08:39 Pibacc wrote: What is a safe build vs zerg? I can forge FE pretty easily but then I have no idea when to take a third or what tech to go. Forge FE into phoenix is the most standard and arguably the safest option right now. If your opponent goes for heavy mutas you can add on another stargate and a fleet beacon for the range upgrade, if your opponent goes for a more standard roach hydra viper then you can transition into collosus, and then eventually void ray colossus.
This is what I have been doing in PvZ lately. Forge FE into phoenix, into colossus, into colossus/void ray. Hydralisk/Swarm Host/Queen with or without nydus mobility is what I commonly wind up playing against and I do quite well versus it.
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On March 14 2013 10:02 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 09:56 jcroisdale wrote:On March 14 2013 09:43 kollin wrote:On March 14 2013 09:39 jcroisdale wrote:On March 14 2013 09:13 Pibacc wrote: twice i've lost to a zerg putting a hatch in my natural or main base. what in the fuck how do you stop this when you're trying to forge FE? Assuming you scout it right away and its in your main base pull 4-5 probes and just let them target it down. If the zerg builds it to block you natural just start teching up with cannon/cannon/gate/gas/core. The two cannons are more then enough to take it down if you build them as soon as the forge finishes. Avoid building cannons against a hatch in your main, occasionally players just cancel the hatch and build it somewhere else, which leaves you in a awkward position if you try to stop it with cannons. Just pull probes and chrono out zealot. Killing it with probes is a lot worse than building cannons and forcing him to cancel the hatchery, delaying it enough for you to get out a zealot. Each probe mines 40 minerals a minute, and of course have pathetic dps, so if you of pull 4-5 probes you will probably lose 400+ minerals. I understand the loss of mining time when pulling the probes, but if the hatch gets up and he has time to build anything besides a set of lings or two im screwed. The probes are there to start damaging the hatch so the zealot can finish it off without the hatch finishing. If the probes cost me 400 minerals, that is the cost of the 1 pylon and two cannons you are going to be building in order to cancel/kill the hatch. The problem here is if he lets them get close to finishing then cancels the hatch and buildings it out of range of the cannons. Now we have to cancel them, build a new pylon in range and build cannons once again. Now we can get in a situation where he loses 150 minerals for two hatch cancels. While I have two extra pylons in my main 1-2 cannon cancels and two cannons built in a fairly useless place in my main. However his hatchery is severely delayed, and the entire point of his build is stopped. Then, now he has no economy, you go up to 7 gateways and win with a zealot MSC all in. If you pull probes and you don't end up getting the hatch low, or he cancels the hatch, you are put a lot further behind than if you had built pylons (which are useful throughout the game) and cannons (not necessarily useless throughout the game).
The follow up to stopping an in base hatch is not really relevant to the discussion. The real argument is if pulling 4-5 probes is better then building cannons to stop a proxy hatch in my main base. This was something I struggled with awhile back when if first became popular on ladder. Some of the people / resources I used to figure this out all lead me to believe that pulling probes was better then building cannons.
One thing to consider is mining time is lost linearly, it slowly builds up to those 400 minerals. While building pylons and cannons require the money right away. You are taking roughly an equal hit to economy, but with cannons you need all the money up front.
I understand the idea that the pylons and cannons are not actually useless, but if were in a game with less then 20 supply and have wasted 300 more minerals then the opponent, effectively we are very far behind.
Also consider that the cannons offer no support at the front of your base. If the zergs intent was to go for a few roaches off the proxy he is going to still build those roaches and send them to your front. By pulling probes you get an earlier nexus and tech, which should help with any pressure/ all in.
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On March 14 2013 05:37 thousand wrote: First of all, I would like to contribute by presenting my PvT opening that in my opinion greatly exploits MS Core power. Here it is:
13 Gate 17 Nexus 17 Pylon 18 2x Gas 19 Core 20 Zealot
After Core finishes chrono MSC asap. You don't need a third pylon as Nexus finished at the same time as Core. I found (low master) this valiable versus most early aggresion including new reapers (losing no more than 3 probes). The only problem is marine SCV all-in as my sentry is quite delayed. If I scout early gas I quickly add 2 more gates and forge for potential mines. Overall the build gives you fairly better economy and improves your later timings. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!
Now I'd like to ask for some help in return. I'm looking for a viable pre-medivac all in as I find them extremely difficult to defend (not saying imba but they are seriously nerve wracking...). I was thinking about Void Ray + gates but that would not be viable vs Window Mines. Immortal sentry seems like the best option but I can't find any professional build for PvT, any ideas? how would this be fine vs reaper if your core is so late, especially proxy reaper. A good opening I learned from minigun is standard gate gas core then zealot mothership core warp gate expo. After you chrono out 3 stalkers and get a robo then 2 gates while rallying all probes to main base till you have enough to defend both. Use your mothership core to scout what they are doing.
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On March 14 2013 09:01 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 08:57 thousand wrote:On March 14 2013 08:37 kollin wrote: That's a fair point. I'm not sure how often Terran's open mines, and more specifically if in a standard build they would be out that quickly. Well the only thing they need for mines is factory, which is built around 7-8 minute assuming they go standard FE. I would say timing with void rays is not possible pre-factory. I'd agree with you there, but once again it's a question of whether or not the Terran gets enough mines out to make a difference. In terms of pre-factory all ins, I guess you could do DT into four gate with an archon or something. I know feast did that in PvP, and with the Terran most likely having bio only units it could be kinda good.
I've been worried about these issues myself and so I plugged it in to the fusion build order optimizer:
Waypoint 1 satisfied: 6:53.37: 289M 76G 49/ 54S Income: 1110M 114G Buildings: 2 Command Center 4 Supply Depot 1 Refinery 3 Barracks 1 Bunker 1 Factory 1 Starport Units: 30 SCV 10 Marine 3 Widow Mine 1 Medivac
This is an all-in that leaves them with no add-ons or engineering bay and significantly behind on workers. But it does start a command center on 18, so it looks like they're playing normal, and leaves them with adequate defense against 3gate pushes. So you have to be prepared for this at 7:00. The version fusion came out with is gas-first with a very late 16 barracks, but I doubt going for a normal rax first would significantly delay the timings.
A fairly standard 1 base all-in timing has a move out of 5:45 according to Fusion. That's with 3 marines and a bunker left behind for defense.
The fastest possible widow mine/medivac drop is 5:10, but that's with only 10 scvs and no defense, so not really practical.
I really hate this because I think it eliminates all safe forms of 2-base twilight council-based aggression. It forces you to have detection ready a full 2 minutes earlier than against cloaked banshees.
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Now that we have the Mothership core, has anyone tried to open with 4 gates pressure into expansion in PvZ?
I guess the aim is to try to make zerg over commit in making units or try do as much damage as possible without losing your entire army.
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Hey guys, I played all of the beta as Terran and have little experience with the new HOTS units for Protoss; I've had too many MSC's die on me the last 2 days...Anyway, I have played like 10 PvPs since yesterday and have been having a hard time. Right now I'm going pretty fast Blink ~8:00 but I just did a game where I did 3 gate pressure and did a ton of damage but then lost all my units with bad control by going up a ramp.
It seems that the timing window to get Blink upgraded is fucking gigantic (4 MINUTES once TC goes down) and has to be followed by pretty incredible Blink play (snipe colo/immo, get in the main, etc) to not be crazy behind on tech and economy. Any of you guys going Blink in the early game? What are you preferred openings? Or should I just scratch it and go for Robo or Stargate tech as my standard opener?
I will add below some replays plus writeups, I appreciate any help I get, guys. Thanks a lot.
+ Show Spoiler [2 Gate Blink Expo vs Stargate - Daybreak] +http://drop.sc/310182This game goes extremely well for me in the early game. I scout my opponent's first Oracle and deny it from getting into position really early and then transition into double Stargate. I like this opening quite a lot but I'm not sure how it would fare against strong 1 base aggression like 3 gate Robo or 3 gate Voidray. I'd love to get some thoughts and critque on this build.
+ Show Spoiler [Blink vs 3 Gate 2 Immo Push - Akilon W…] +http://drop.sc/310180Here I go for 2 gates and get Blink then a 3rd gate. I don't scout his Tech in time and get caught off guard by the immortals. he gets up my natural and kills off 3 of my Stalkers (8:30). I actually could have saved those Stalkers if I had just moved over to the cliff and Blinked up to my main (Blink finishes literally seconds after those stalkers die). However, I feel like it would have been a pretty difficult task to get out of my main and put any pressure back on my opponent. The only thing I think I could have really done to weaken this attack was to push much more aggressively and much earlier with my first 4-6 stalkers around 7 min and try and delay the push. Thoughts? How would you guys have approached this situation after the immortals made it to your ramp?
+ Show Spoiler [3 Gate Press into Blink* - Whirlwind] +http://drop.sc/310178This is the game in question. I think I would have won if I hadn't made the mistake of walking up his ramp, but like I said before, my Blink was crazy delayed. You think I would have been able to contain him, expand, and tech after doing such an aggressive opening (if I had hypothetically not lost those units up his ramp)? Would I have been better off going with the build in my previous replay?
Please watch the replays and let me know what you think. Thanks, fellow Protoss.
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as for someone who didn't play beta I have few questions
What maps did you veto? Someone already mentioned maps with hard to take 3rds (belshir, neo planet s, star station) , so I'll veto them for now.
What about the openings and mid games? Guess stargate play is really strong, so I'll all-in in some funky way in PvP, but what about PvT? I've seen Mvp dismantling Mana with window mine drops. It was really painful to watch. : D PvZ : ffe, stargate=>4gate=>robo=>3rd ? PvT : ? PvP : stargate all in of some kind
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On March 14 2013 12:12 Mi.rai wrote: Now that we have the Mothership core, has anyone tried to open with 4 gates pressure into expansion in PvZ?
I guess the aim is to try to make zerg over commit in making units or try do as much damage as possible without losing your entire army. 4 gate MSC can be a strong build, but if the Zerg scouts it you basically lose, assuming he doesn't under react and put down no spines. If he holds off your push, he is so far ahead of you economically that you might as well GG out at that point, instead of dragging the game out.
On March 14 2013 15:26 NotSoHappy wrote: as for someone who didn't play beta I have few questions
What maps did you veto? Someone already mentioned maps with hard to take 3rds (belshir, neo planet s, star station) , so I'll veto them for now.
What about the openings and mid games? Guess stargate play is really strong, so I'll all-in in some funky way in PvP, but what about PvT? I've seen Mvp dismantling Mana with window mine drops. It was really painful to watch. : D PvZ : ffe, stargate=>4gate=>robo=>3rd ? PvT : ? PvP : stargate all in of some kind The PvZ opening looks good to me. For PvT, someone posted a fairly solid build order on the last page, I recommend you give that a go and see if it takes to your liking. In PvP I do not think you should do a stargate all in. In my opinion, open up with some 2 gate pressure, then follow it up with an expansion, more gateways and most importantly 2 stargates. If your opponent only built one stargate in favour of getting air upgrades, there are a lot of timings you can hit where you have so many more phoenixes than him he just dies. If he is also on 2 stargates, start out with phoenixes but also mix in void rays, as if you can get a critical mass of void rays while preventing your opponent from doing so you win.
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On March 14 2013 15:26 NotSoHappy wrote: as for someone who didn't play beta I have few questions
What maps did you veto? Someone already mentioned maps with hard to take 3rds (belshir, neo planet s, star station) , so I'll veto them for now.
What about the openings and mid games? Guess stargate play is really strong, so I'll all-in in some funky way in PvP, but what about PvT? I've seen Mvp dismantling Mana with window mine drops. It was really painful to watch. : D PvZ : ffe, stargate=>4gate=>robo=>3rd ? PvT : ? PvP : stargate all in of some kind
I veto'd every map that looked like it was 4 spawns, so I only play on the maps where I know my opponent's starting position. As for the matchups, here's what I've been doing:
PvP:
DT expo into chargelot/vr/immortal
The reason I chose this as my standard build is that, with the new changes, MSC all ins and stargate play are prevalent, so you can imagine how many build order wins I get. If they survive the DT opener, the chargelot/immortal/vr followup usually destroys because of how wide open these maps are.
PvZ:
1g DT expo into immortal/stalker/templar with drops
This has been working decently well for me because of how safe it is to 1g expo on a little tech now, with the MSC. Zergs aren't taking fast thirds at all anymore, it seems, so it's much easier to deny a third and go into a harass focused midgame, similar to what Hero used to do.
1g SG expo into colossus/void
Same principle on the expanding here, and oracles at 7 minutes do obscene amounts of damage to zergs if you micro properly. Obviously we're working on the old idea that you force the zerg to make air with the oracle harass + voids denying his third, and then crush him in the midgame with colossi.
PvT:
This matchup has changed the least for me. I just do Sase's 1g expo with the gas mining trickery from that daily, but instead of being aggressive I play defensive and scout > react the best I can.
All in all, great expo for protoss imo. MSC and oracle are invaluable, void buff is nice, dt shrine buff is nice. I haven't even had a cause to use tempests yet, but I'm sure they have their niche in skytoss after ffe.
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Hi everyone, my main question is if anyone has any viable PvZ builds lying around. I feel pretty lost right now and have ended up losing the majority of my PvZ games (where I would previously win 75% or so). My timings all feel like they've gone the way of the Dodo. Typically, this was my WoL build:
9 pylon in base, scout on very big maps, or four player maps 12 gate, scout on smaller maps (ex Ohana) 15 gas, two in gas until after second Zealot 16 Zealot, CB 16 Pylon to block their nat expansion 19-20 Zealot, CB, send both Zealots to the Zerg base. 19-20 Core, it can depend if you get supply blocked or not by lings killing your pylon on their nat if you go for core or Zealot 23 Pylon to prepare wall at your nat 24 Stalker, send it over the map or send it to kill scouting OLs in your base 26 Nexus 26 Forge 26 Pylon
During the pressure I send in my scouting probe to see if they get gas or not. After I do the pressure to make sure they're on two base, force out lings, etc. you get a Sentry as you pressure if they manage to kill your stalker and zealot/zealot, Then I get +1 Weapons from my forge and just CB it as much as possible, go up to four gates total and then I do +1 Zealot attacks on their third or nat as they've probably tried to expand. This is usually the time they roll over and die or they get crippled. During this time I get a robo and my gases, take my third and get twilight, 4-5 immortals, +2, Blink and Archons and then I do a 15 minute timing and win. Or forget to scout for Hive and die as they've gotten early Broods.
Anyway, this build hasn't worked at all for me for whatever reason in Hots. I don't really get when I should get the MSC, I often go for Stargates instead of the Robo to counter mutas, etc. Maybe it's because I am unsure of when and how to scout now, but I often end up with a third base and just sort of floundering around and then dying to Roach/Hydra/Swarmhost compositions. Part of it is just that I play worse than I did in WoL ,but maybe someone can give me a hand with handy Gate-openers.
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On March 14 2013 18:07 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 15:26 NotSoHappy wrote: as for someone who didn't play beta I have few questions
What maps did you veto? Someone already mentioned maps with hard to take 3rds (belshir, neo planet s, star station) , so I'll veto them for now.
What about the openings and mid games? Guess stargate play is really strong, so I'll all-in in some funky way in PvP, but what about PvT? I've seen Mvp dismantling Mana with window mine drops. It was really painful to watch. : D PvZ : ffe, stargate=>4gate=>robo=>3rd ? PvT : ? PvP : stargate all in of some kind I veto'd every map that looked like it was 4 spawns, so I only play on the maps where I know my opponent's starting position. As for the matchups, here's what I've been doing: PvP: DT expo into chargelot/vr/immortal The reason I chose this as my standard build is that, with the new changes, MSC all ins and stargate play are prevalent, so you can imagine how many build order wins I get. If they survive the DT opener, the chargelot/immortal/vr followup usually destroys because of how wide open these maps are. PvZ: 1g DT expo into immortal/stalker/templar with drops This has been working decently well for me because of how safe it is to 1g expo on a little tech now, with the MSC. Zergs aren't taking fast thirds at all anymore, it seems, so it's much easier to deny a third and go into a harass focused midgame, similar to what Hero used to do. 1g SG expo into colossus/void Same principle on the expanding here, and oracles at 7 minutes do obscene amounts of damage to zergs if you micro properly. Obviously we're working on the old idea that you force the zerg to make air with the oracle harass + voids denying his third, and then crush him in the midgame with colossi. PvT: This matchup has changed the least for me. I just do Sase's 1g expo with the gas mining trickery from that daily, but instead of being aggressive I play defensive and scout > react the best I can. All in all, great expo for protoss imo. MSC and oracle are invaluable, void buff is nice, dt shrine buff is nice. I haven't even had a cause to use tempests yet, but I'm sure they have their niche in skytoss after ffe.
Hi, This is my first post on TL.net so yeah...
I would just like to thank you for your input. I've been searching a lot for peoples opening builds to get an idea of the current meta. I played no beta and my play (Diamond WoL) feels very sloppy. Would you be able to PM your build orders and any variations or give them in a reply on this thread?
Also, thanks everyone for the continued input - I enjoy reading through and seeing other peoples thoughts and ideas that hopefully help my game.
Thanks
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On March 14 2013 18:36 Heartland wrote: Hi everyone, my main question is if anyone has any viable PvZ builds lying around.
Hey, so I see your build here is a gateway opening, and I know that they are also popular among a number of HOTS players, but I personally still prefer forge fast expanding. I'll give you a couple of my builds that I have been doing.
The first is more standard play, starting with a standard WOL FFE into quick stargate. The nice thing is, that with the void ray buff in HOTS, you no longer need immortals to deal with large numbers of roaches. In general, void rays are just actually pretty solid all around. Anyway, after the stargate finishes, you have two options, either harass with a couple oracles or phoenix, or maybe a combo of both (3 phoenix into the main, oracle to the 3rd). Regardless, the importance here is that you both get a very good read of what the zerg is up to, and also keep him a little distracted. Also, it should really disincentivize him from going mutas (which is a win on its own in my book, I hate mutas). Next comes a difference from WOL, because of the void ray buff, we can now make a few void rays out of the stargate. With a couple voids and a decent ball of zealot sentry, holding a decently timed 3rd should be no problem at all. From here, the zerg is likely going hydra (this is what most do when they smell stargate play). So then for you while you take your third should be starting to tech up towards either colossus or HT with storm. I personally prefer going HT as that path lets me continue my upgrades and is strong against both hydras and surprise 13 minute mass mutas (which unfortunately, does occasionally happen). Of course as the game progresses further on adding colossus as well is a good idea. I want to just note a couple things. First, do not try to immediately go colossus and HT, you just don't have the gas for it. Second, if you see anything that indicates fast swarm hosts you need colossus to deal with that. Anyway, this should deliver you safely to mid-late game, and then its up to you and the way the game plays out.
My second build is decently all-in. To preface this one, I'll give you a fact: if 4 DTs start attacking a hatchery, and an overseer morphs right over the DTs the instant the first swipe of the DTs hits, the hatch still dies. Anyway, the build is decently simple. FFE into a twilight asap (and as hidden as possible). Get a stalker out as soon as you can and push away any overlords in your base and patrol a ledge one might try to come from. Also get a mothership core around this time and use it to push out and deny any lings from the watchtowers. Use this time while the zerg is in the dark to sneak out a probe and get a proxy pylon up. As the twilight is building add 3 more gates. As soon as you can, add the DT shrine. At this time you can put some extra money into gateways. When the DT shrine finishes, you are going to do 2 warp ins of 4 DTs each. I like to have 4 DTs run each to the 3rd and the nat of the zerg. Make sure you try to time these to both hit at exactly the same time so the zerg doesn't have time to react. If you were good about being sneaky, you will almost always snap one hatch. As soon as you are done with your warp ins of DTs, start zlot charge and warp in zlots at home with extra money. After you snipe hatches, it's your call whether you try to move you DTs further in to snipe more tech or try to escape before detection arrives. Regardless, your intent is now to dump all chrono into charge and +2 attack, and then hit a massive chargelot archon timing (archons made from DTs) while the zerg is still trying to reestablish his footing after the DTs.
Anyway, this is mostly what I've been playing with in this matchup, to some pretty good success. Also, if you see zerg going for a 2 base play, and you don't see roaches around 7 minutes, use your sentries to hallucinate a phoenix into their base and see what's up. If you see 2 base with an infestation pit, you better get some colossus up asap. I have even gone double robo colossus off of two base against this play (2 base swarm host all in) to great success. Other than that, gl hf!
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Italy12246 Posts
I think the best overall PvZ build right now is stargate/4gate/robo into third. It transitions very smoothly into either colosuss vs ground units, or ranged phoenix/heavy stargate vs mass muta. With the mutalisk buffs and infestor nerfs, beating mutas with phoenixes seems much much easier and more straightforward than with blink stalker/templar.
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Austria24413 Posts
Also more so than ever, you HAVE to scout what zerg is doing. There's no real catch all build. The above build is a really solid build and has been working for me too, but you absolutely have to know when/how to transition. Especially now that there's no real metagame developed yet.
The only question I have with it is how I'm supposed to react vs 3base swarmhosts? Should I add a 2nd robo for colossi and then do a big WoL-esque 3base push?
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On March 14 2013 19:58 DarkLordOlli wrote: Also more so than ever, you HAVE to scout what zerg is doing. There's no real catch all build. The above build is a really solid build and has been working for me too, but you absolutely have to know when/how to transition. Especially now that there's no real metagame developed yet.
The only question I have with it is how I'm supposed to react vs 3base swarmhosts? Should I add a 2nd robo for colossi and then do a big WoL-esque 3base push?
I always open 3-4 phoenixes into a fast 3rd, and almost all of my games are against fast swarm host/hydra pushes. The main thing I've learned is that scouting is super important. You should already be buildng a robo facility while you take your 3rd, so as soon as you realize swarm hosts are coming go straight for chronoing out collosus. As long as I stop them from initially getting set up outside my 3rd/natural, I'm fine. If you let them get setup however, I feel like it's extremely hard to stop with creep spread/spines pushed up near your base. And idk if it's the best thing to do but yeah, if I see swarm hosts and I stop them from gaining control in the middle of the map I've just been doing 3 base pushes with 3-4 collosus. Keep an obs to see where his swarm hosts are, and attack wherever they aren't sieged up.
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On March 14 2013 18:43 Kyoshi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 18:07 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 14 2013 15:26 NotSoHappy wrote: as for someone who didn't play beta I have few questions
What maps did you veto? Someone already mentioned maps with hard to take 3rds (belshir, neo planet s, star station) , so I'll veto them for now.
What about the openings and mid games? Guess stargate play is really strong, so I'll all-in in some funky way in PvP, but what about PvT? I've seen Mvp dismantling Mana with window mine drops. It was really painful to watch. : D PvZ : ffe, stargate=>4gate=>robo=>3rd ? PvT : ? PvP : stargate all in of some kind I veto'd every map that looked like it was 4 spawns, so I only play on the maps where I know my opponent's starting position. As for the matchups, here's what I've been doing: PvP: DT expo into chargelot/vr/immortal The reason I chose this as my standard build is that, with the new changes, MSC all ins and stargate play are prevalent, so you can imagine how many build order wins I get. If they survive the DT opener, the chargelot/immortal/vr followup usually destroys because of how wide open these maps are. PvZ: 1g DT expo into immortal/stalker/templar with drops This has been working decently well for me because of how safe it is to 1g expo on a little tech now, with the MSC. Zergs aren't taking fast thirds at all anymore, it seems, so it's much easier to deny a third and go into a harass focused midgame, similar to what Hero used to do. 1g SG expo into colossus/void Same principle on the expanding here, and oracles at 7 minutes do obscene amounts of damage to zergs if you micro properly. Obviously we're working on the old idea that you force the zerg to make air with the oracle harass + voids denying his third, and then crush him in the midgame with colossi. PvT: This matchup has changed the least for me. I just do Sase's 1g expo with the gas mining trickery from that daily, but instead of being aggressive I play defensive and scout > react the best I can. All in all, great expo for protoss imo. MSC and oracle are invaluable, void buff is nice, dt shrine buff is nice. I haven't even had a cause to use tempests yet, but I'm sure they have their niche in skytoss after ffe. Hi, This is my first post on TL.net so yeah... I would just like to thank you for your input. I've been searching a lot for peoples opening builds to get an idea of the current meta. I played no beta and my play (Diamond WoL) feels very sloppy. Would you be able to PM your build orders and any variations or give them in a reply on this thread? Also, thanks everyone for the continued input - I enjoy reading through and seeing other peoples thoughts and ideas that hopefully help my game. Thanks
I don't really keep track of build orders, it's hard to explain. I just know what to do and when based on how much money I have and things like that, and feel out the rest of the game after the opening. Here's some replays from today though.
http://drop.sc/310208
PvT against a terran that opens with double drop hellion + widow mines. I just open standard 1g expo and defend mineral lines well. The midgame was weird, I thought he was meching so I cancelled colossus den and went chargelot ht, only to find out that he was actually going some form of biomech. Either way, made it to the endgame with pretty normal composition vs bio and ended up winning. You mostly want to see the opening, and how to deal with widow mines that early.
http://drop.sc/310209
PvP against some pretty standard early stargate HotS stuff, I'd say this is the PvP opening I see the most so far. His SG was delayed because he got MSC, so I did a fair bit of damage with the DT. Ended the game with some immortal/void stuff.
http://drop.sc/310210
PvZ showcasing the 1g DT expand into harassment focused midgame. Ever since I saw the Idra vs Hero daily I've wanted this strategy to work, so I'm really enjoying being able to to do it now. Even though he scouts the DT shrine, I still delay his third and unlock the tech path nice and early, well worth the investment. Lots of trades and back and forth with harassment until I bleed him dry, fun game.
http://drop.sc/310211
PvZ again, the 1g SG expand build. Really straightforward, simple stuff. Nice clean game, zerg just crumbles from the SG harass into colossus push. Nice bit of rage at the end too.
Keep in mind these builds are works in progress, and I'm just trying a lot of different stuff out on ladder to see what I can get away with. My philosophy on PvT is that I should have very strong macro and defense, and be unstoppable late game. PvP and PvZ I like to do my best to force reactions out of my opponents. Hope this helps.
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Thanks for the reply.
I'm struggling with most matchups but in particular DT opening against zerg. For sure they are good units for the midgame/lategame but I end up investing too much early game gas which is needed for tech for mid game. Also, I fall behind quickly as I'm on 1base to opponents 2 (sometimes even 3) base.
Once you work something less gimmicky let me know. I'm enjoying the FFE, 5 Pheonix Harras (Overlords and Drones) -> Colussus, 3rd base and Void Ray/Templar/Tempest Late game.
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On March 14 2013 11:08 1v1Alpha wrote: how would this be fine vs reaper if your core is so late, especially proxy reaper. A good opening I learned from minigun is standard gate gas core then zealot mothership core warp gate expo. After you chrono out 3 stalkers and get a robo then 2 gates while rallying all probes to main base till you have enough to defend both. Use your mothership core to scout what they are doing.
Everything comes down to micro. I've checked the timing more precisely. 888 proxy reaper comes out of baracks at around 3:20 and needs another 20 seconds to start harassing, depending on a map. My MSC comes out at 4:40. During this one minute you have a zealot to tank some damage and you can loose couple of probes since his economy is almost non existent. At 6:20 MSC gets 100 energy and any for of harassement should be over unless you terribly fucked up with micro.
Here you can see the build when T goes 1 rax expand and I follow up with Oracles.
http://drop.sc/310215
Me and my opponent played very sloppy but the game really shows how much of an economic advantage you can gain.
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I'm having a lot of trouble in general against Terran lately. I'll preface by saying that I'm VERY new to HOTS, ranking in at silver when I finished my placement matches. I never got past Silver in WOL, even though I've watched every tournament that's been out, because I just love the scene. I'm finding myself going down a lot to really stupid early game stuff that I SHOULD be able to defend, like big MMM rushes that totally take me out. I'm finding a lot of people just 1 basing their way to win, and I feel like I'm trying to overthink and do things above my current skill level.
I've been doing my best to do a 3 gate expand into 6 or so gateways lately, but I don't feel like it's working in general. Even in Z or P matches, I'm really struggling with how to use the new units, and not get stuck on "Well I guess I'll just warp in a load of shit and A click it".
If anyone has some good, recent advice on how to just basically build into HOTS, that'd be absolutely lovely.
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On March 14 2013 19:58 DarkLordOlli wrote: Also more so than ever, you HAVE to scout what zerg is doing. There's no real catch all build. The above build is a really solid build and has been working for me too, but you absolutely have to know when/how to transition. Especially now that there's no real metagame developed yet.
The only question I have with it is how I'm supposed to react vs 3base swarmhosts? Should I add a 2nd robo for colossi and then do a big WoL-esque 3base push?
Yeah, I think my issue is that I felt like all of my timings and understandings of what is going on are shot. Usually with the build I described in my post my scouting is easy. The scouting probe sneaks into the zerg main as my zealots pressure the front, then I can scout gas and thus ling speed. As my +1 Zealot 4gate strikes it's reconaissance en force with them having to send their Roaches/Mutas out to fight my Zealots or die (they usually appear just as I am whacking away at their third). Then with my robo after my first Immo I can get in an obs to scout later mutas, if they get a third, mass a two-base all in or if they go for Infestors. With that or later Obs I can check for the Hive timing.
But now I feel sort of unsure. How do I know when they're going for Swarmhosts for example? I mean, more than seeing them (obviously). What are the telltale signs of gas timings, what their army looks like, etc.
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