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On March 15 2013 07:39 murphs wrote:Nobody is playing zerg, only played 1 PvZ in 2 days, I have nothing to say about the matchup.
The Idra-patented incredibly negative mindset is in full effect right now with zergs, at least the ones I have been playing. They seem to think they can't win at all so they cheese or do stupid all-ins that don't really work. I have yet to play a macro game against zerg in the 15 or so PvZs I've played. Every game has been roach/ling all-in, baneling busts, fast lair hydra busts or crazy super all-in muta builds (where they cut corners big time and try to get the fastest mutas possible. This build is AWFUL especially when most Protoss open stargate). It has been pretty dumb. It is kinda funny because half the zergs I have played used to be Master in WoL but now are getting stomped in Diamond in HOTS. Hmmmm... I wonder why...
PvP is so silly right now. Nobody I have played seems to want to do late game so it has been lots of all-ins. Though I just DT rush every PvP now since it actually seems to work moderately well against many builds now because of how few people go robo. It is straight up rock-paper-scissors it feels like. Stargate > DT > Blink > Stargate (unless they go voidray, then stargate seems ok against blink because of how good new voidrays are against armoured).
PvT has been pretty fun. Other than mine drops I really like how it is in HOTS. Mech is so different to play against. It is kinda refreshing. It is too bad so many terrans are still just doing the WoL style bio and not even trying to use hellbats or mines.
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On March 15 2013 08:29 Kyoshi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 08:11 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:05 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 04:37 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 14 2013 22:13 Kyoshi wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
I'm struggling with most matchups but in particular DT opening against zerg. For sure they are good units for the midgame/lategame but I end up investing too much early game gas which is needed for tech for mid game. Also, I fall behind quickly as I'm on 1base to opponents 2 (sometimes even 3) base.
Once you work something less gimmicky let me know. I'm enjoying the FFE, 5 Pheonix Harras (Overlords and Drones) -> Colussus, 3rd base and Void Ray/Templar/Tempest Late game. The second PvZ play should be pretty interesting to you if you want something that's solid. You open up every tech path and devote little to harassment while getting huge returns, it's fairly straightforward. If gateway expands aren't your cup of tea then try the build from daily 436, with some oracle harass mixed in. In a nutshell you FFE and then go 4g robo sg, and take a third. It's the safest thing in the world after FFE. Okay thank you for the reference. Looks like i've been doing a similar build but more on the fly. I would also like to ask about PvP. Most of my games have opened up Pheonix vs Pheonix or some sort of oracle play with the occassional 4gate. However, DT's are a problem as going Robo isn't viable to open with anymore I was wondering how to counter DTs. (Sometimes I go for them too and just win straight up) Is it the oracle that has detection or MSC? I realise there was another form of detection that isn't an observer or cannon but I haven't found it yet. Also, just like WoL I'm struggling against Terrans who split there army (2 Medivac drops, Push at front with 2 Medivacs, bio and a couple of vikings). I'm not confident with my PvT all-ins so I'm yet to try oracles/stalker/zealot/MSC all-in. Has anyone found any HT FE builds that might be able to shut down drops a bit better with charge/storm/MSC. (MSC for the Time Warp and easy storms) It's the oracle that detects, so I'd imagine SG players would FF their ramp until the oracle gets back to detect, or until you get some detection out from a robo or forge. There's an older Sase stargate > robo build floating around that would probably handle DT's just fine if you're dead set on opening SG every pvp. As for your PvT, post a replay. As far as I know the most common HT first builds have always been the 3 - 4 gate aggression into fast third builds that got popular a few months ago, not sure if they're still played though. I will note that with widow mines coming out so fast, it's probably not a good idea to start going HT first, as you'll have a lot more build order losses. Still, definitely post me some of your PvT losses. Thanks for your input once again. I'm currently at school and won't be home for a while. When I do however I'll collect some of my losses vs terran and maybe play a few more to try and find the problem myself. I know one of my games I may have taken a greedy 3rd without any pressure so the terran was able to out unit me and with bad MSC micro I stand no chance. I'm so used to being able to get an early 3rd with a couple of colussus, poking at 2/3 colussus then falling back to double forge/3rd base and HT Tech. Is the "R" Keybinding the detection on the Oracle? Thanks again.
As a general rule for PvT, I never take a third unless I can confirm that the terran intends to take his, it's just so risky. I really like double forge in general though, but the thing with double forge builds is that your whole game is building up to the maxed attack you make at 3-3. I wouldn't so much play a back and forth game with double forge builds. No idea what the keybind is for detecting with oracles, though.
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On March 15 2013 04:42 Wingblade wrote:
I'm really struggling taking a third against Zerg. I feel forced into stargate for anti-muta and im struggling how to transition to defend a third safely. Anyone have a good build order?
I have found the fast expand -> stargate -> 4 gates -> robo (as was mentioned earlier by ThaReckoning) to work really well. I've been opting for 1 gate expands which allow you to get up the stargate a lot faster, and you can get a good number of drone kills provided the zerg doesn't just blindly throw down spores at every base (as all of the ones I've been playing do -_-). I've learned that you CANNOT be too fast in taking your third or you will be overrun by roach/hydra. I like to have at least one colossus, several immortals, and several void rays before I expand. If you get to 3 base saturation you're in pretty good shape, especially if you crush an attempted roach/hydra all-in on your third.
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im curious i know it was possible to FFE vs terran in WoL, is it still a viable opening?
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On March 15 2013 14:02 polysciguy wrote:
im curious i know it was possible to FFE vs terran in WoL, is it still a viable opening?
I'd say probably not, with the resurgence of reaper play, and the idea of fast WM drops both coming out in time to do serious damage or end the game.
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On March 15 2013 04:42 Wingblade wrote:
... I've learned that you CANNOT be too fast in taking your third or you will be overrun by roach/hydra ...
^ This is important imo. I learned the hard way too that, at least for now, taking early thirds a'la woL in PvZ is really really hard, and it seems mostly alright to delay the third since most zergs nowadays gear into an aggressive midgame with a lot of gassy units like hydras and mutas. Plus kicking your eco into gear ASAP for that pre-hive timing isn't quite as important anymore (rejoice! rejoice! 
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On March 15 2013 15:16 moofang wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 04:42 Wingblade wrote:
... I've learned that you CANNOT be too fast in taking your third or you will be overrun by roach/hydra ... ^ This is important imo. I learned the hard way too that, at least for now, taking early thirds a'la woL in PvZ is really really hard, and it seems mostly alright to delay the third since most zergs nowadays gear into an aggressive midgame with a lot of gassy units like hydras and mutas. Plus kicking your eco into gear ASAP for that pre-hive timing isn't quite as important anymore (rejoice! rejoice!
I like to think of this as a reset to a time when gateway expands were viable. There are no more fast 3 bases in the matchup (so far) and zergs are doing to base techy builds. It's just like it used to be, and it's a lot more entertaining than the 3 hatch era. That's not to say you can't go fast 3 base if you do it properly, I believe you can, but I don't feel the need to check it out right now.
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I stopped playing around early 2012 and have been out of loop since. I didn't follow beta at all and bought HOTS yesterday. I am getting slaughtered on ladder, because I don't know any HOTS builds and all I remember is year old WOL builds.
Can someone post some general openings and army compositions vs all three races?
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On March 15 2013 18:21 xerwin wrote:
I stopped playing around early 2012 and have been out of loop since. I didn't follow beta at all and bought HOTS yesterday. I am getting slaughtered on ladder, because I don't know any HOTS builds and all I remember is year old WOL builds.
Can someone post some general openings and army compositions vs all three races?
On March 14 2013 21:24 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 18:43 Kyoshi wrote:On March 14 2013 18:07 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 14 2013 15:26 NotSoHappy wrote:
as for someone who didn't play beta I have few questions
What maps did you veto? Someone already mentioned maps with hard to take 3rds (belshir, neo planet s, star station) , so I'll veto them for now.
What about the openings and mid games? Guess stargate play is really strong, so I'll all-in in some funky way in PvP, but what about PvT? I've seen Mvp dismantling Mana with window mine drops. It was really painful to watch. : D
PvZ : ffe, stargate=>4gate=>robo=>3rd ?
PvT : ?
PvP : stargate all in of some kind I veto'd every map that looked like it was 4 spawns, so I only play on the maps where I know my opponent's starting position. As for the matchups, here's what I've been doing: PvP: DT expo into chargelot/vr/immortal The reason I chose this as my standard build is that, with the new changes, MSC all ins and stargate play are prevalent, so you can imagine how many build order wins I get. If they survive the DT opener, the chargelot/immortal/vr followup usually destroys because of how wide open these maps are. PvZ: 1g DT expo into immortal/stalker/templar with drops This has been working decently well for me because of how safe it is to 1g expo on a little tech now, with the MSC. Zergs aren't taking fast thirds at all anymore, it seems, so it's much easier to deny a third and go into a harass focused midgame, similar to what Hero used to do. 1g SG expo into colossus/void Same principle on the expanding here, and oracles at 7 minutes do obscene amounts of damage to zergs if you micro properly. Obviously we're working on the old idea that you force the zerg to make air with the oracle harass + voids denying his third, and then crush him in the midgame with colossi. PvT: This matchup has changed the least for me. I just do Sase's 1g expo with the gas mining trickery from that daily, but instead of being aggressive I play defensive and scout > react the best I can. All in all, great expo for protoss imo. MSC and oracle are invaluable, void buff is nice, dt shrine buff is nice. I haven't even had a cause to use tempests yet, but I'm sure they have their niche in skytoss after ffe. Hi, This is my first post on TL.net so yeah... I would just like to thank you for your input. I've been searching a lot for peoples opening builds to get an idea of the current meta. I played no beta and my play (Diamond WoL) feels very sloppy. Would you be able to PM your build orders and any variations or give them in a reply on this thread? Also, thanks everyone for the continued input - I enjoy reading through and seeing other peoples thoughts and ideas that hopefully help my game. Thanks I don't really keep track of build orders, it's hard to explain. I just know what to do and when based on how much money I have and things like that, and feel out the rest of the game after the opening. Here's some replays from today though. http://drop.sc/310208PvT against a terran that opens with double drop hellion + widow mines. I just open standard 1g expo and defend mineral lines well. The midgame was weird, I thought he was meching so I cancelled colossus den and went chargelot ht, only to find out that he was actually going some form of biomech. Either way, made it to the endgame with pretty normal composition vs bio and ended up winning. You mostly want to see the opening, and how to deal with widow mines that early. http://drop.sc/310209PvP against some pretty standard early stargate HotS stuff, I'd say this is the PvP opening I see the most so far. His SG was delayed because he got MSC, so I did a fair bit of damage with the DT. Ended the game with some immortal/void stuff. http://drop.sc/310210PvZ showcasing the 1g DT expand into harassment focused midgame. Ever since I saw the Idra vs Hero daily I've wanted this strategy to work, so I'm really enjoying being able to to do it now. Even though he scouts the DT shrine, I still delay his third and unlock the tech path nice and early, well worth the investment. Lots of trades and back and forth with harassment until I bleed him dry, fun game. http://drop.sc/310211PvZ again, the 1g SG expand build. Really straightforward, simple stuff. Nice clean game, zerg just crumbles from the SG harass into colossus push. Nice bit of rage at the end too. Keep in mind these builds are works in progress, and I'm just trying a lot of different stuff out on ladder to see what I can get away with. My philosophy on PvT is that I should have very strong macro and defense, and be unstoppable late game. PvP and PvZ I like to do my best to force reactions out of my opponents. Hope this helps.
There's all this, and for other options, you have SG first PvP, you have the 4g SG Robo into fast third PvZ, there's tons of air all ins vs terran floating around. The first few pages of the thread are filled with all kinds of cool stuff.
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What do you guys think of early Mothership Core agression? I love to push mine out asap and start harassing the Eco of the enemy, just to keep him distracted. is it worth it from your point of view?
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Austria24417 Posts
On March 15 2013 18:44 FetTerBender wrote:
What do you guys think of early Mothership Core agression? I love to push mine out asap and start harassing the Eco of the enemy, just to keep him distracted. is it worth it from your point of view?
Yes. Where you'd have opened zealot -> stalker -> sentry, you can usually skip the sentry now and get the core out early. That will actually keep you even safer unless aggression is immediately incoming and you can also use it offensively while really not cutting anything except probes for what, 30 seconds? Totally worth it imo.
Be careful in PvP though if you do a build with no immediate detection. That early sentry might be what saves your life against a DT build.
In PvZ, the early zealot/stalker/stalker poke has become a zealot/stalker/core poke that's even easier to execute because nothing will attack the core unless you fly it straight into a queen.
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On March 15 2013 18:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 18:44 FetTerBender wrote:
What do you guys think of early Mothership Core agression? I love to push mine out asap and start harassing the Eco of the enemy, just to keep him distracted. is it worth it from your point of view? Yes. Where you'd have opened zealot -> stalker -> sentry, you can usually skip the sentry now and get the core out early. That will actually keep you even safer unless aggression is immediately incoming and you can also use it offensively while really not cutting anything except probes for what, 30 seconds? Totally worth it imo. Be careful in PvP though if you do a build with no immediate detection. That early sentry might be what saves your life against a DT build. In PvZ, the early zealot/stalker/stalker poke has become a zealot/stalker/core poke that's even easier to execute because nothing will attack the core unless you fly it straight into a queen.
Thanks for the suggestions!
When i smell a tech heavy (aka DT´s) opening, i tend to just four gate. The chokes cannot be protected as easily as they used to be protected (Core grants Vision) and the Tech just steals so much gas that your enemy in most cases will not be able to pull off a comeback unit-wise.
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Austria24417 Posts
Hm, 4gate does decently against some really tech-greedy openings like a 3stalker rush with no sentries afterwards, immediately into tech or some low gas tech build that leaves no room for additional "emergency" sentries. But don't forget that if you don't get in, you might have delayed their tech a little (like, they'll be forced to warp in sentries so their tech units will be started later) but they still have the tech ready and thus have an advantage against you + should be making probes knowing that you cut them to 4gate. So if they do defend it they're still ahead and can either pressure you back or expand. Or even do both and contain you which in almost every case means you lose the game.
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On March 15 2013 19:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Hm, 4gate does decently against some really tech-greedy openings like a 3stalker rush with no sentries afterwards, immediately into tech or some low gas tech build that leaves no room for additional "emergency" sentries. But don't forget that if you don't get in, you might have delayed their tech a little (like, they'll be forced to warp in sentries so their tech units will be started later) but they still have the tech ready and thus have an advantage against you + should be making probes knowing that you cut them to 4gate. So if they do defend it they're still ahead and can either pressure you back or expand. Or even do both and contain you which in almost every case means you lose the game.
I'd abandon the 4gate completely at this point. With the addition of the MSC + DT cost buffs, it's pretty impractical to do. I say this as a player that almost exclusively 4gated PvP up until the release of HotS.
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Austria24417 Posts
On March 15 2013 21:11 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 19:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Hm, 4gate does decently against some really tech-greedy openings like a 3stalker rush with no sentries afterwards, immediately into tech or some low gas tech build that leaves no room for additional "emergency" sentries. But don't forget that if you don't get in, you might have delayed their tech a little (like, they'll be forced to warp in sentries so their tech units will be started later) but they still have the tech ready and thus have an advantage against you + should be making probes knowing that you cut them to 4gate. So if they do defend it they're still ahead and can either pressure you back or expand. Or even do both and contain you which in almost every case means you lose the game. I'd abandon the 4gate completely at this point. With the addition of the MSC + DT cost buffs, it's pretty impractical to do. I say this as a player that almost exclusively 4gated PvP up until the release of HotS.
Yeah it is pretty useless now. I never 4gate except in placement matches because I won't be bothered playing macro against bronze players. I've received my fair share of 4gates though and never had a problem against it in WoL. Defending it in HotS is just super easy.
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Decided to move into Protoss for HotS after playing Terren last season for 50~ games(Bronze level EU, but Silver NA.. Wierd eh?) and so far, even if I'm losing alot I'm having alot of fun playing a new race. I'd like to know some simple build orders for each matchup to help me win my matches now though and break out of Bronze. I've won very few of my matches mostly due to my lack of mechanics knowledge, so any information that will help me with that too would be greatly apreciated. I've been playing protoss for only a day now and I'm already having more fun than I had with Terren in that whole season, it's very refreshing.
So basically I'd like a summary on:
Basic timings, when to get gas, I sometimes struggle hitting my first pylon on 9 and it's placement(On my natural if FFE, or at my main for a GW first, but I'm still not sure)
Some simple unit compositions
Some whacky builds that'll mix things up a little(these are just because I hate taking things too serious, I used to like to unwind after being beat by a 6pool by massing thor drops into mineral lines!)
If it's too much for a reply I welcome any responses to private message me on here. Thanks guys!
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On March 15 2013 21:17 ZenDEE wrote:
Decided to move into Protoss for HotS after playing Terren last season for 50~ games(Bronze level EU, but Silver NA.. Wierd eh?) and so far, even if I'm losing alot I'm having alot of fun playing a new race. I'd like to know some simple build orders for each matchup to help me win my matches now though and break out of Bronze. I've won very few of my matches mostly due to my lack of mechanics knowledge, so any information that will help me with that too would be greatly apreciated. I've been playing protoss for only a day now and I'm already having more fun than I had with Terren in that whole season, it's very refreshing.
So basically I'd like a summary on:
Basic timings, when to get gas, I sometimes struggle hitting my first pylon on 9 and it's placement(On my natural if FFE, or at my main for a GW first, but I'm still not sure)
Some simple unit compositions
Some whacky builds that'll mix things up a little(these are just because I hate taking things too serious, I used to like to unwind after being beat by a 6pool by massing thor drops into mineral lines!)
If it's too much for a reply I welcome any responses to private message me on here. Thanks guys!
Honestly if I were you I'd just practice macro, and check out some guides and some streams. I'd worry less about build orders at this point. Have a look around these:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292549
http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-436-pvz-3-base-and-long-term-play/
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=350993
These are all builds that you can easily incorporate new HotS mechanics and units into, and should get you started on each matchup.
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Austria24417 Posts
I'm gonna answer part of your question because I don't have too much time right now.
Unit compositions:
- Zealot/Stalker/Colossus. Fairly simple to explain: zealots tank damage, stalkers shoot your opponent's air units and colossus kill ground units.
Chargelot/Archon/HT: Those units work well together because of the resources used for them. Zealots cost only minerals, High Templar almost only gas. This unit composition is very strong against terran MMM but has to be upgraded well because gateway units with bad upgrades simply SUCK. That means either double forge or an early single forge to go along with the unit composition. Because you're relying on these gateway units, you want to have lots of gateways (standard for zealot/archon is 7 on 2 bases). But you also want lots of observers to spot for drops and to have vision of your opponent's movements because you don't wanna get caught off guard and using storm is much easier and more effective with good vision.
Those are the two most standard midgame compositions for protoss in PvT for example but can also be used in PvZ. PvP is a complete mess right now in HotS but basically voidrays > everything except mass phoenixes.
If your mechanics are not too good I honestly would not open stargate in PvP unless you go voidrays. Stargate takes multitasking skills and you have to do everything at home very quickly. That requires decent mechanics. I'd only really recommend a phoenix/oracle opening in high platinum or above.
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I'm in a similar boat as you, ZenDEE. Bronze Protoss just looking for some basic build orders. I would appreciate some macro oriented builds so I can improve my mechanics.
Also,
-When should I scout and what should I look for?
-When should I be getting out the mothership core?
-Is it still necessary to wall off against Zerg even with photon overcharge?
Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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On March 15 2013 21:39 Tritone wrote:
I'm in a similar boat as you, ZenDEE. Bronze Protoss just looking for some basic build orders. I would appreciate some macro oriented builds so I can improve my mechanics.
Also,
-When should I scout and what should I look for?
-When should I be getting out the mothership core?
-Is it still necessary to wall off against Zerg even with photon overcharge?
Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
The scouting part is all relative. MSC doesn't really have a set time that you need it either, so I don't have much of an answer here. Most builds have a bit of nexus downtime while you're expanding, so I use that to make it. In PvZ you can open zealot > stalker > mscore and do some poking. Yes, it's still necessary to wall off.
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