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On March 14 2013 05:37 thousand wrote:
First of all, I would like to contribute by presenting my PvT opening that in my opinion greatly exploits MS Core power. Here it is:
13 Gate
17 Nexus
17 Pylon
18 2x Gas
19 Core
20 Zealot
After Core finishes chrono MSC asap. You don't need a third pylon as Nexus finished at the same time as Core. I found (low master) this valiable versus most early aggresion including new reapers (losing no more than 3 probes). The only problem is marine SCV all-in as my sentry is quite delayed. If I scout early gas I quickly add 2 more gates and forge for potential mines. Overall the build gives you fairly better economy and improves your later timings. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!
Now I'd like to ask for some help in return. I'm looking for a viable pre-medivac all in as I find them extremely difficult to defend (not saying imba but they are seriously nerve wracking...). I was thinking about Void Ray + gates but that would not be viable vs Window Mines. Immortal sentry seems like the best option but I can't find any professional build for PvT, any ideas?
(Master Toss) I realy like your build. i think you can delay the Robo until you want to go until Colossus since the Halluzination give you every scout information you need.
I think the 3 Void All in might work the best against Terrans who play standard.
Actually the best way to play PvT is to turtel heavily on 2 Bases and rely on good Upgrades to get into late game. I tried 10-12 Min 3th but i allways died against Medivac drops. Maybe I need to try scout drops with Halluzination. Anyways PvT is pretty hard right now ( at least for me)
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On March 14 2013 06:46 FlyingBeer wrote:
Does this include 2rax builds? It seems like you're dead against those without a super early core, especially if they go reapers, and on a 13 scout you're not getting into their base until after the core is supposed to go down. If they build one rax in their base and proxy the 2nd one, you won't scout it, and just die right away. Any solution to any of those problems?
As for the 1base immortal all-in, check Kyo's replay pack in the HotS forum. He did an all-in with a proxy robo on Daybreak in PvT. There's also a youtube video somewhere demonstrating the 2base immortal all-in on Ohana, but I don't remember where I found it.
When I cant get in/see gas I always check all the corners with my scouting probe before I go back to my main. I also scout with my first chronoed stalker (right after zealot). The thing is to delay the push as long as possible so that MSC will have enough energy for the cannon (don't know the exact timing yet) which includes kiting with stalker or pulling some probes.
I've played a lot against reapers already. Basically zealot tanks some damage, with good micro you loose maximum of 3 probes until you get a chronoed stalker. After this its pretty straight forward.
Thanks for the advice!
On March 14 2013 07:05 kollin wrote:
If you want a solid PvT all in, I suggest you check out ROOTLeiya's opening. She isn't the only one that does this, and I don't have the exact build order down in numbers, but it's pretty easy to work out. Proxy stargate, go up to three gates then go in with 3 void rays + gateway units. Focus down the bunkers with the charged void rays, and you should push through a lot of defences.
EDIT: Here's a VOD of Socke doing this build, he does end up failing however Thorzain was pretty much as prepared as he could be against an attack of this kind.
youtube.com/watch?v=FN6x6Gqwd-w
Thank you! The only problem that I find with this build is that you have absolutely no detection which is a distaster vs mines. I don't like builds that are so 'coin flippy'.
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On March 14 2013 07:58 thousand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 06:46 FlyingBeer wrote:
Does this include 2rax builds? It seems like you're dead against those without a super early core, especially if they go reapers, and on a 13 scout you're not getting into their base until after the core is supposed to go down. If they build one rax in their base and proxy the 2nd one, you won't scout it, and just die right away. Any solution to any of those problems?
As for the 1base immortal all-in, check Kyo's replay pack in the HotS forum. He did an all-in with a proxy robo on Daybreak in PvT. There's also a youtube video somewhere demonstrating the 2base immortal all-in on Ohana, but I don't remember where I found it. When I cant get in/see gas I always check all the corners with my scouting probe before I go back to my main. I also scout with my first chronoed stalker (right after zealot). The thing is to delay the push as long as possible so that MSC will have enough energy for the cannon (don't know the exact timing yet) which includes kiting with stalker or pulling some probes. I've played a lot against reapers already. Basically zealot tanks some damage, with good micro you loose maximum of 3 probes until you get a chronoed stalker. After this its pretty straight forward. Thanks for the advice! Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 07:05 kollin wrote:
If you want a solid PvT all in, I suggest you check out ROOTLeiya's opening. She isn't the only one that does this, and I don't have the exact build order down in numbers, but it's pretty easy to work out. Proxy stargate, go up to three gates then go in with 3 void rays + gateway units. Focus down the bunkers with the charged void rays, and you should push through a lot of defences.
EDIT: Here's a VOD of Socke doing this build, he does end up failing however Thorzain was pretty much as prepared as he could be against an attack of this kind.
youtube.com/watch?v=FN6x6Gqwd-w Thank you! The only problem that I find with this build is that you have absolutely no detection which is a distaster vs mines. I don't like builds that are so 'coin flippy'.
Well if you suspect mines you can make an oracle, and use that detection ability.
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On March 14 2013 08:03 kollin wrote:Well if you suspect mines you can make an oracle, and use that detection ability.
True but that delays your push substantially and gives him time to react. Also, the ability itself lasts only a minute.
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On March 14 2013 08:34 thousand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 08:03 kollin wrote:Well if you suspect mines you can make an oracle, and use that detection ability. True but that delays your push substantially and gives him time to react. Also, the ability itself lasts only a minute.
That's a fair point. I'm not sure how often Terran's open mines, and more specifically if in a standard build they would be out that quickly.
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What is a safe build vs zerg? I can forge FE pretty easily but then I have no idea when to take a third or what tech to go.
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On March 14 2013 08:39 Pibacc wrote:
What is a safe build vs zerg? I can forge FE pretty easily but then I have no idea when to take a third or what tech to go.
Forge FE into phoenix is the most standard and arguably the safest option right now. If your opponent goes for heavy mutas you can add on another stargate and a fleet beacon for the range upgrade, if your opponent goes for a more standard roach hydra viper then you can transition into collosus, and then eventually void ray colossus.
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On March 14 2013 08:37 kollin wrote:
That's a fair point. I'm not sure how often Terran's open mines, and more specifically if in a standard build they would be out that quickly.
Well the only thing they need for mines is factory, which is built around 7-8 minute assuming they go standard FE. I would say timing with void rays is not possible pre-factory.
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On March 14 2013 08:57 thousand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 08:37 kollin wrote:
That's a fair point. I'm not sure how often Terran's open mines, and more specifically if in a standard build they would be out that quickly. Well the only thing they need for mines is factory, which is built around 7-8 minute assuming they go standard FE. I would say timing with void rays is not possible pre-factory.
I'd agree with you there, but once again it's a question of whether or not the Terran gets enough mines out to make a difference. In terms of pre-factory all ins, I guess you could do DT into four gate with an archon or something. I know feast did that in PvP, and with the Terran most likely having bio only units it could be kinda good.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
How much do I have to learn new openers? Didn't touch HoTS at all in beta.
I just want to jump in without learning new ones, I'd imagine in PvZ I can FFE and improvise a bit for sure, and PvT I should be able to figure something out on the fly.
PvP on the other hand, I have yet to figure out at all, is that worth looking up specific openers for?
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twice i've lost to a zerg putting a hatch in my natural or main base. what in the fuck how do you stop this when you're trying to forge FE?
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On March 14 2013 08:52 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 08:39 Pibacc wrote:
What is a safe build vs zerg? I can forge FE pretty easily but then I have no idea when to take a third or what tech to go. Forge FE into phoenix is the most standard and arguably the safest option right now. If your opponent goes for heavy mutas you can add on another stargate and a fleet beacon for the range upgrade, if your opponent goes for a more standard roach hydra viper then you can transition into collosus, and then eventually void ray colossus.
What maps should I downvote? Because it seems I can't FFE without having them put a hatch in my base
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On March 14 2013 09:13 Wombat_NI wrote:
How much do I have to learn new openers? Didn't touch HoTS at all in beta.
I just want to jump in without learning new ones, I'd imagine in PvZ I can FFE and improvise a bit for sure, and PvT I should be able to figure something out on the fly.
PvP on the other hand, I have yet to figure out at all, is that worth looking up specific openers for?
In PvP it is pretty safe to do early 2 gate pressure, then stargate. I suggest you watch Socke vs Titan in the MLG Winter Season Showdowns for an example of this. Blink MSC openings are okay, but you just die to any kind of DT opener, which is a lot more common than it was in WoL.
On March 14 2013 09:13 Pibacc wrote:
twice i've lost to a zerg putting a hatch in my natural or main base. what in the fuck how do you stop this when you're trying to forge FE?
Have you tried building one, maybe even two cannons next to the hatchery? Also by no means do you have to FFE I'm HotS, gateway expands off the back of light pressure from a MSC, a stalker and two zealots is very viable, and players such as Grubby do it extremely well.
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How do you respond to mass pheonix in PvP? I have been going void ray expand into void ray zealots and I haven't lost except to people who pheonix my probes, then me, to death.
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On March 14 2013 09:13 Pibacc wrote:
twice i've lost to a zerg putting a hatch in my natural or main base. what in the fuck how do you stop this when you're trying to forge FE?
Assuming you scout it right away and its in your main base pull 4-5 probes and just let them target it down. If the zerg builds it to block you natural just start teching up with cannon/cannon/gate/gas/core. The two cannons are more then enough to take it down if you build them as soon as the forge finishes.
Avoid building cannons against a hatch in your main, occasionally players just cancel the hatch and build it somewhere else, which leaves you in a awkward position if you try to stop it with cannons. Just pull probes and chrono out zealot.
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On March 14 2013 09:34 Phloat wrote:
How do you respond to mass pheonix in PvP? I have been going void ray expand into void ray zealots and I haven't lost except to people who pheonix my probes, then me, to death.
You either have to kill your opponent with a timing push, before he can't get up that critical mass of phoenixes, or you go into mass phoenix yourself. An example of this happening is Homestory Cup VI, where Naniwa was against Hero (was it Hero?) on Ohana, and they both ended up going mass phoenix as both players opened stargate and couldn't slow the other player's phoenix production well enough. If you do go into mass phoenix wars, make sure you are getting air upgrades (I think armour is best) and remember that the most precious commodity in that game becomes gas. If you can get a base up on your opponent, you essentially win as you will be able to produce such a significantly larger amount of phoenixes than the other guy, that he will not be able to stop you.
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On March 14 2013 09:39 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 09:13 Pibacc wrote:
twice i've lost to a zerg putting a hatch in my natural or main base. what in the fuck how do you stop this when you're trying to forge FE? Assuming you scout it right away and its in your main base pull 4-5 probes and just let them target it down. If the zerg builds it to block you natural just start teching up with cannon/cannon/gate/gas/core. The two cannons are more then enough to take it down if you build them as soon as the forge finishes. Avoid building cannons against a hatch in your main, occasionally players just cancel the hatch and build it somewhere else, which leaves you in a awkward position if you try to stop it with cannons. Just pull probes and chrono out zealot.
Killing it with probes is a lot worse than building cannons and forcing him to cancel the hatchery, delaying it enough for you to get out a zealot. Each probe mines 40 minerals a minute, and of course have pathetic dps, so if you of pull 4-5 probes you will probably lose 400+ minerals.
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On March 14 2013 09:34 Phloat wrote:
How do you respond to mass pheonix in PvP? I have been going void ray expand into void ray zealots and I haven't lost except to people who pheonix my probes, then me, to death.
The biggest problem plaguing PvP right now is the forced SG play. Ground>Voids>Oracle>Phx. The basic idea is that the void is so strong against stalkers it makes ground games ineffective as the game goes past 2 bases. The counter being Oracle Phoenix. A couple oracles for their harassment and spells, while going mass phoenix. The phoenix proves better then the void because, of its reduced build time, cheaper cost, lower supply, and harassment potential.
This brings the game to a weird spot where air control is so important that both players should be making mass phoenix.
To finally answer your question, the best way to counter the phoenix play without going phoenix yourself is with a decent timing attack. Phoenix play only gets stronger with time, the best time to hit will be once you get mineral saturation at your natural, and doing a 6/7gate void timing. You want to hit as early as possible while still having enough income to warp in stalkers off 6 gates.
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On March 14 2013 09:43 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 09:39 jcroisdale wrote:On March 14 2013 09:13 Pibacc wrote:
twice i've lost to a zerg putting a hatch in my natural or main base. what in the fuck how do you stop this when you're trying to forge FE? Assuming you scout it right away and its in your main base pull 4-5 probes and just let them target it down. If the zerg builds it to block you natural just start teching up with cannon/cannon/gate/gas/core. The two cannons are more then enough to take it down if you build them as soon as the forge finishes. Avoid building cannons against a hatch in your main, occasionally players just cancel the hatch and build it somewhere else, which leaves you in a awkward position if you try to stop it with cannons. Just pull probes and chrono out zealot. Killing it with probes is a lot worse than building cannons and forcing him to cancel the hatchery, delaying it enough for you to get out a zealot. Each probe mines 40 minerals a minute, and of course have pathetic dps, so if you of pull 4-5 probes you will probably lose 400+ minerals.
I understand the loss of mining time when pulling the probes, but if the hatch gets up and he has time to build anything besides a set of lings or two im screwed. The probes are there to start damaging the hatch so the zealot can finish it off without the hatch finishing.
If the probes cost me 400 minerals, that is the cost of the 1 pylon and two cannons you are going to be building in order to cancel/kill the hatch. The problem here is if he lets them get close to finishing then cancels the hatch and buildings it out of range of the cannons. Now we have to cancel them, build a new pylon in range and build cannons once again. Now we can get in a situation where he loses 150 minerals for two hatch cancels. While I have two extra pylons in my main 1-2 cannon cancels and two cannons built in a fairly useless place in my main.
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On March 14 2013 09:56 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 09:43 kollin wrote:On March 14 2013 09:39 jcroisdale wrote:On March 14 2013 09:13 Pibacc wrote:
twice i've lost to a zerg putting a hatch in my natural or main base. what in the fuck how do you stop this when you're trying to forge FE? Assuming you scout it right away and its in your main base pull 4-5 probes and just let them target it down. If the zerg builds it to block you natural just start teching up with cannon/cannon/gate/gas/core. The two cannons are more then enough to take it down if you build them as soon as the forge finishes. Avoid building cannons against a hatch in your main, occasionally players just cancel the hatch and build it somewhere else, which leaves you in a awkward position if you try to stop it with cannons. Just pull probes and chrono out zealot. Killing it with probes is a lot worse than building cannons and forcing him to cancel the hatchery, delaying it enough for you to get out a zealot. Each probe mines 40 minerals a minute, and of course have pathetic dps, so if you of pull 4-5 probes you will probably lose 400+ minerals. I understand the loss of mining time when pulling the probes, but if the hatch gets up and he has time to build anything besides a set of lings or two im screwed. The probes are there to start damaging the hatch so the zealot can finish it off without the hatch finishing. If the probes cost me 400 minerals, that is the cost of the 1 pylon and two cannons you are going to be building in order to cancel/kill the hatch. The problem here is if he lets them get close to finishing then cancels the hatch and buildings it out of range of the cannons. Now we have to cancel them, build a new pylon in range and build cannons once again. Now we can get in a situation where he loses 150 minerals for two hatch cancels. While I have two extra pylons in my main 1-2 cannon cancels and two cannons built in a fairly useless place in my main.
However his hatchery is severely delayed, and the entire point of his build is stopped. Then, now he has no economy, you go up to 7 gateways and win with a zealot MSC all in. If you pull probes and you don't end up getting the hatch low, or he cancels the hatch, you are put a lot further behind than if you had built pylons (which are useful throughout the game) and cannons (not necessarily useless throughout the game).
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EPT
