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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On March 14 2013 22:22 Sombre wrote:
I'm having a lot of trouble in general against Terran lately. I'll preface by saying that I'm VERY new to HOTS, ranking in at silver when I finished my placement matches. I never got past Silver in WOL, even though I've watched every tournament that's been out, because I just love the scene. I'm finding myself going down a lot to really stupid early game stuff that I SHOULD be able to defend, like big MMM rushes that totally take me out. I'm finding a lot of people just 1 basing their way to win, and I feel like I'm trying to overthink and do things above my current skill level.
I've been doing my best to do a 3 gate expand into 6 or so gateways lately, but I don't feel like it's working in general. Even in Z or P matches, I'm really struggling with how to use the new units, and not get stuck on "Well I guess I'll just warp in a load of shit and A click it".
If anyone has some good, recent advice on how to just basically build into HOTS, that'd be absolutely lovely.
I'm going to tell you the boring, but true thing. It's not about your BO (but having faith in it and knowing it in your muscle memory is good) but it's about your overal macro. In anything below Dia (and I'd argue there too, to a great extent) sc2 is about smooth, clean macro more than anything fancy. If you make sure to continually produce workers, never get supply blocked, produce out of every warp cycle and upgrade well then you're going to win the majority of your games even if you just do the BO you're doing now.
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On March 14 2013 05:37 thousand wrote:
First of all, I would like to contribute by presenting my PvT opening that in my opinion greatly exploits MS Core power. Here it is:
13 Gate
17 Nexus
17 Pylon
18 2x Gas
19 Core
20 Zealot
After Core finishes chrono MSC asap. You don't need a third pylon as Nexus finished at the same time as Core. I found (low master) this valiable versus most early aggresion including new reapers (losing no more than 3 probes). The only problem is marine SCV all-in as my sentry is quite delayed. If I scout early gas I quickly add 2 more gates and forge for potential mines. Overall the build gives you fairly better economy and improves your later timings. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!
Now I'd like to ask for some help in return. I'm looking for a viable pre-medivac all in as I find them extremely difficult to defend (not saying imba but they are seriously nerve wracking...). I was thinking about Void Ray + gates but that would not be viable vs Window Mines. Immortal sentry seems like the best option but I can't find any professional build for PvT, any ideas?
The best PvT all in I've seen was from Grubby and WhiteRa. Proxy stargate into 3 oracles. Send oracle to the main mineral line to pull away marines from the bunker, kill scvs, and kill stray marines. Then pressure bunker with zealot, stalker, stalker rallied from your gateway and a MSC. Once you have 2-3 oracles start harrassing at different places while still pressuring at the front. If you executed correctly they can't have enough marines to hold the front, and protect two mineral lines. It's also decent to transition from as you do huge economical damage in the process. I often transition in to chargelots because you used so much gas during the all in and can't afford robo + collosus.
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On March 15 2013 02:39 FreedomMurder wrote:
The best PvT all in I've seen was from Grubby and WhiteRa. Proxy stargate into 3 oracles. Send oracle to the main mineral line to pull away marines from the bunker, kill scvs, and kill stray marines. Then pressure bunker with zealot, stalker, stalker rallied from your gateway and a MSC. Once you have 2-3 oracles start harrassing at different places while still pressuring at the front. If you executed correctly they can't have enough marines to hold the front, and protect two mineral lines. It's also decent to transition from as you do huge economical damage in the process. I often transition in to chargelots because you used so much gas during the all in and can't afford robo + collosus.
Thank you! Any link to a video, replay or build order would be highly appreciated.
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On March 15 2013 02:39 FreedomMurder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 05:37 thousand wrote:
First of all, I would like to contribute by presenting my PvT opening that in my opinion greatly exploits MS Core power. Here it is:
13 Gate
17 Nexus
17 Pylon
18 2x Gas
19 Core
20 Zealot
After Core finishes chrono MSC asap. You don't need a third pylon as Nexus finished at the same time as Core. I found (low master) this valiable versus most early aggresion including new reapers (losing no more than 3 probes). The only problem is marine SCV all-in as my sentry is quite delayed. If I scout early gas I quickly add 2 more gates and forge for potential mines. Overall the build gives you fairly better economy and improves your later timings. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!
Now I'd like to ask for some help in return. I'm looking for a viable pre-medivac all in as I find them extremely difficult to defend (not saying imba but they are seriously nerve wracking...). I was thinking about Void Ray + gates but that would not be viable vs Window Mines. Immortal sentry seems like the best option but I can't find any professional build for PvT, any ideas? The best PvT all in I've seen was from Grubby and WhiteRa. Proxy stargate into 3 oracles. Send oracle to the main mineral line to pull away marines from the bunker, kill scvs, and kill stray marines. Then pressure bunker with zealot, stalker, stalker rallied from your gateway and a MSC. Once you have 2-3 oracles start harrassing at different places while still pressuring at the front. If you executed correctly they can't have enough marines to hold the front, and protect two mineral lines. It's also decent to transition from as you do huge economical damage in the process. I often transition in to chargelots because you used so much gas during the all in and can't afford robo + collosus.
I remember seeing that used a few times. Does anybody have a replay or two of some of the games?
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Can someone recommend me a good unit test map for Hots?
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On March 15 2013 03:59 thousand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 02:39 FreedomMurder wrote:
The best PvT all in I've seen was from Grubby and WhiteRa. Proxy stargate into 3 oracles. Send oracle to the main mineral line to pull away marines from the bunker, kill scvs, and kill stray marines. Then pressure bunker with zealot, stalker, stalker rallied from your gateway and a MSC. Once you have 2-3 oracles start harrassing at different places while still pressuring at the front. If you executed correctly they can't have enough marines to hold the front, and protect two mineral lines. It's also decent to transition from as you do huge economical damage in the process. I often transition in to chargelots because you used so much gas during the all in and can't afford robo + collosus. Thank you! Any link to a video, replay or build order would be highly appreciated.
If you can find a link to the WhiteRa vs. Lucifron matches from the EU HOTS launch then it would be game 1 or 2 from that series.... Thats where I saw it anyways. I also saw grubby use it on stream. I don't know the exact build order but I imagine you would go 12 gate, 14 gas and a 2nd gas before cyber core? Then proxy the stargate with your first 150 gas, then stalker, then MSC, then warpgate, stalker, then 2 extra gates.I feel having the earlier oracles, stalkers, and MSC would be more important than having faster WG right?
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On March 14 2013 22:13 Kyoshi wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
I'm struggling with most matchups but in particular DT opening against zerg. For sure they are good units for the midgame/lategame but I end up investing too much early game gas which is needed for tech for mid game. Also, I fall behind quickly as I'm on 1base to opponents 2 (sometimes even 3) base.
Once you work something less gimmicky let me know. I'm enjoying the FFE, 5 Pheonix Harras (Overlords and Drones) -> Colussus, 3rd base and Void Ray/Templar/Tempest Late game.
The second PvZ play should be pretty interesting to you if you want something that's solid. You open up every tech path and devote little to harassment while getting huge returns, it's fairly straightforward. If gateway expands aren't your cup of tea then try the build from daily 436, with some oracle harass mixed in. In a nutshell you FFE and then go 4g robo sg, and take a third. It's the safest thing in the world after FFE.
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I'm really struggling taking a third against Zerg. I feel forced into stargate for anti-muta and im struggling how to transition to defend a third safely. Anyone have a good build order?
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I've been having a lot of success in PvT with the 1z, 1s, MSC poke into expand, add a robo, build a sentry, add in a warp prism and do some kick harassment (active scout, deny mining time, pick off an add-on). Obviously this is against an FE terran. On larger maps I pause probe production after 1st gateway to get a slightly earlier gas = earlier MSC.
Basically:
gateway
gas
core
zealot
stalker
msc
nexus
gas (2)
robo
sentry
warp prism (z, stalker, and sentry)
>> Follow-up (colossi tech, more gateways, double forge, etc.)
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On March 14 2013 21:24 ThaReckoning wrote:
PvZ:
PvZ showcasing the 1g DT expand into harassment focused midgame. Ever since I saw the Idra vs Hero daily I've wanted this strategy to work, so I'm really enjoying being able to to do it now. Even though he scouts the DT shrine, I still delay his third and unlock the tech path nice and early, well worth the investment. Lots of trades and back and forth with harassment until I bleed him dry, fun game.
See, I love playstyles like that, but I have to wonder why he didn't scout the warp prism sitting in his base all game and destroy it, and why he didn't put spines and spores in all his mineral lines. I used to always do warp prism/DT play in PvZ but I'm finding now that zergs are just blindly putting spores in every mineral line now because skytoss is so common. Have you been successful with this build over a large number of games, or is it something you've only won with a couple of times?
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On March 15 2013 05:17 scZazen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 21:24 ThaReckoning wrote:
PvZ:
PvZ showcasing the 1g DT expand into harassment focused midgame. Ever since I saw the Idra vs Hero daily I've wanted this strategy to work, so I'm really enjoying being able to to do it now. Even though he scouts the DT shrine, I still delay his third and unlock the tech path nice and early, well worth the investment. Lots of trades and back and forth with harassment until I bleed him dry, fun game. See, I love playstyles like that, but I have to wonder why he didn't scout the warp prism sitting in his base all game and destroy it, and why he didn't put spines and spores in all his mineral lines. I used to always do warp prism/DT play in PvZ but I'm finding now that zergs are just blindly putting spores in every mineral line now because skytoss is so common. Have you been successful with this build over a large number of games, or is it something you've only won with a couple of times?
The idea is to extend the midgame as long as you can, dismantling as much as possible so that his late game is almost a nonissue. The only thing you're afraid of with immortal/stalker/templar is a large amount of brood/infestor, which costs a ton of time and gas. Spines cost either drones, larva, or both, and the longer he spends making spines and drones to replenish the ones lost making spines, the bigger your advantages get. I view it as successful harassment if he turtles with a ton of spines, because you can just take the map while he does it. If he moves out you posture with your army and warp in someplace, and make him choose. He can stop your base from going up, at the cost of at least one of his, etc. As for my success with it, I haven't played it very much in HotS so far, but it feels promising.
As for the DT play, it was mostly just to delay his third because my nat was later than what's usual. He even scouted the shrine, but it didn't really matter. Non-committal aggression, as Day9 would say. As for the WP in his base, it's not uncommon. I was keeping him pretty busy.
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Does anyone else feel like seeing anything that looks like a 1-1-1 build (FE or not) from a Terran in PvT forces a 1-gate robo (after FE) build due to the threat of those stupid mines?
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I haven't had any issues out of it, I have more trouble with the mines getting unloaded quickly than detecting them. Although I did have a bad time against Debo, he proxied a factory and walked mines out of it straight to my natural mineral line and burrowed them there. D=
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PvT is hilarious, I'm at a complete and total loss. I'm going to void ray all in every game.
Nobody is playing zerg, only played 1 PvZ in 2 days, I have nothing to say about the matchup.
PvP features lots of DT rushes.
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Anyone got a good pvp build ? My robo FE isn't cutting it anymore.
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any good P vs all replays?
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On March 15 2013 04:37 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 22:13 Kyoshi wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
I'm struggling with most matchups but in particular DT opening against zerg. For sure they are good units for the midgame/lategame but I end up investing too much early game gas which is needed for tech for mid game. Also, I fall behind quickly as I'm on 1base to opponents 2 (sometimes even 3) base.
Once you work something less gimmicky let me know. I'm enjoying the FFE, 5 Pheonix Harras (Overlords and Drones) -> Colussus, 3rd base and Void Ray/Templar/Tempest Late game. The second PvZ play should be pretty interesting to you if you want something that's solid. You open up every tech path and devote little to harassment while getting huge returns, it's fairly straightforward. If gateway expands aren't your cup of tea then try the build from daily 436, with some oracle harass mixed in. In a nutshell you FFE and then go 4g robo sg, and take a third. It's the safest thing in the world after FFE.
Okay thank you for the reference. Looks like i've been doing a similar build but more on the fly.
I would also like to ask about PvP.
Most of my games have opened up Pheonix vs Pheonix or some sort of oracle play with the occassional 4gate.
However, DT's are a problem as going Robo isn't viable to open with anymore I was wondering how to counter DTs. (Sometimes I go for them too and just win straight up)
Is it the oracle that has detection or MSC? I realise there was another form of detection that isn't an observer or cannon but I haven't found it yet.
Also, just like WoL I'm struggling against Terrans who split there army (2 Medivac drops, Push at front with 2 Medivacs, bio and a couple of vikings). I'm not confident with my PvT all-ins so I'm yet to try oracles/stalker/zealot/MSC all-in. Has anyone found any HT FE builds that might be able to shut down drops a bit better with charge/storm/MSC. (MSC for the Time Warp and easy storms)
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On March 15 2013 08:05 Kyoshi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 04:37 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 14 2013 22:13 Kyoshi wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
I'm struggling with most matchups but in particular DT opening against zerg. For sure they are good units for the midgame/lategame but I end up investing too much early game gas which is needed for tech for mid game. Also, I fall behind quickly as I'm on 1base to opponents 2 (sometimes even 3) base.
Once you work something less gimmicky let me know. I'm enjoying the FFE, 5 Pheonix Harras (Overlords and Drones) -> Colussus, 3rd base and Void Ray/Templar/Tempest Late game. The second PvZ play should be pretty interesting to you if you want something that's solid. You open up every tech path and devote little to harassment while getting huge returns, it's fairly straightforward. If gateway expands aren't your cup of tea then try the build from daily 436, with some oracle harass mixed in. In a nutshell you FFE and then go 4g robo sg, and take a third. It's the safest thing in the world after FFE. Okay thank you for the reference. Looks like i've been doing a similar build but more on the fly. I would also like to ask about PvP. Most of my games have opened up Pheonix vs Pheonix or some sort of oracle play with the occassional 4gate. However, DT's are a problem as going Robo isn't viable to open with anymore I was wondering how to counter DTs. (Sometimes I go for them too and just win straight up) Is it the oracle that has detection or MSC? I realise there was another form of detection that isn't an observer or cannon but I haven't found it yet. Also, just like WoL I'm struggling against Terrans who split there army (2 Medivac drops, Push at front with 2 Medivacs, bio and a couple of vikings). I'm not confident with my PvT all-ins so I'm yet to try oracles/stalker/zealot/MSC all-in. Has anyone found any HT FE builds that might be able to shut down drops a bit better with charge/storm/MSC. (MSC for the Time Warp and easy storms)
It's the oracle that detects, so I'd imagine SG players would FF their ramp until the oracle gets back to detect, or until you get some detection out from a robo or forge. There's an older Sase stargate > robo build floating around that would probably handle DT's just fine if you're dead set on opening SG every pvp. As for your PvT, post a replay. As far as I know the most common HT first builds have always been the 3 - 4 gate aggression into fast third builds that got popular a few months ago, not sure if they're still played though. I will note that with widow mines coming out so fast, it's probably not a good idea to start going HT first, as you'll have a lot more build order losses. Still, definitely post me some of your PvT losses.
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On March 15 2013 08:11 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 08:05 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 04:37 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 14 2013 22:13 Kyoshi wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
I'm struggling with most matchups but in particular DT opening against zerg. For sure they are good units for the midgame/lategame but I end up investing too much early game gas which is needed for tech for mid game. Also, I fall behind quickly as I'm on 1base to opponents 2 (sometimes even 3) base.
Once you work something less gimmicky let me know. I'm enjoying the FFE, 5 Pheonix Harras (Overlords and Drones) -> Colussus, 3rd base and Void Ray/Templar/Tempest Late game. The second PvZ play should be pretty interesting to you if you want something that's solid. You open up every tech path and devote little to harassment while getting huge returns, it's fairly straightforward. If gateway expands aren't your cup of tea then try the build from daily 436, with some oracle harass mixed in. In a nutshell you FFE and then go 4g robo sg, and take a third. It's the safest thing in the world after FFE. Okay thank you for the reference. Looks like i've been doing a similar build but more on the fly. I would also like to ask about PvP. Most of my games have opened up Pheonix vs Pheonix or some sort of oracle play with the occassional 4gate. However, DT's are a problem as going Robo isn't viable to open with anymore I was wondering how to counter DTs. (Sometimes I go for them too and just win straight up) Is it the oracle that has detection or MSC? I realise there was another form of detection that isn't an observer or cannon but I haven't found it yet. Also, just like WoL I'm struggling against Terrans who split there army (2 Medivac drops, Push at front with 2 Medivacs, bio and a couple of vikings). I'm not confident with my PvT all-ins so I'm yet to try oracles/stalker/zealot/MSC all-in. Has anyone found any HT FE builds that might be able to shut down drops a bit better with charge/storm/MSC. (MSC for the Time Warp and easy storms) It's the oracle that detects, so I'd imagine SG players would FF their ramp until the oracle gets back to detect, or until you get some detection out from a robo or forge. There's an older Sase stargate > robo build floating around that would probably handle DT's just fine if you're dead set on opening SG every pvp. As for your PvT, post a replay. As far as I know the most common HT first builds have always been the 3 - 4 gate aggression into fast third builds that got popular a few months ago, not sure if they're still played though. I will note that with widow mines coming out so fast, it's probably not a good idea to start going HT first, as you'll have a lot more build order losses. Still, definitely post me some of your PvT losses.
Thanks for your input once again.
I'm currently at school and won't be home for a while.
When I do however I'll collect some of my losses vs terran and maybe play a few more to try and find the problem myself. I know one of my games I may have taken a greedy 3rd without any pressure so the terran was able to out unit me and with bad MSC micro I stand no chance.
I'm so used to being able to get an early 3rd with a couple of colussus, poking at 2/3 colussus then falling back to double forge/3rd base and HT Tech.
Is the "R" Keybinding the detection on the Oracle?
Thanks again.
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EPT
