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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
Thanks for your prompt reply.
On March 15 2013 21:42 ThaReckoning wrote:
Yes, it's still necessary to wall off.
That's too bad, I can't wall off to save my life. 
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Austria24422 Posts
On March 15 2013 21:49 Tritone wrote:Thanks for your prompt reply. Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 21:42 ThaReckoning wrote:
Yes, it's still necessary to wall off. That's too bad, I can't wall off to save my life.
There are really good tutorials on youtube! Can't link one right now but will edit this post later if you need one 
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On March 15 2013 21:49 Tritone wrote:Thanks for your prompt reply. Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 21:42 ThaReckoning wrote:
Yes, it's still necessary to wall off. That's too bad, I can't wall off to save my life.
Meh, you're going to have to get used to it, it's a way of life for protoss players.
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Just started playing SC2 so sorry for asking :
What does MSC stands for ?
Thanks !
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On March 15 2013 22:05 ShaolinZorg wrote:
Just started playing SC2 so sorry for asking :
What does MSC stands for ?
Thanks !
mothership core
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On March 15 2013 21:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I'm gonna answer part of your question because I don't have too much time right now.
Unit compositions:
- Zealot/Stalker/Colossus. Fairly simple to explain: zealots tank damage, stalkers shoot your opponent's air units and colossus kill ground units.
Chargelot/Archon/HT: Those units work well together because of the resources used for them. Zealots cost only minerals, High Templar almost only gas. This unit composition is very strong against terran MMM but has to be upgraded well because gateway units with bad upgrades simply SUCK. That means either double forge or an early single forge to go along with the unit composition. Because you're relying on these gateway units, you want to have lots of gateways (standard for zealot/archon is 7 on 2 bases). But you also want lots of observers to spot for drops and to have vision of your opponent's movements because you don't wanna get caught off guard and using storm is much easier and more effective with good vision.
Those are the two most standard midgame compositions for protoss in PvT for example but can also be used in PvZ. PvP is a complete mess right now in HotS but basically voidrays > everything except mass phoenixes.
If your mechanics are not too good I honestly would not open stargate in PvP unless you go voidrays. Stargate takes multitasking skills and you have to do everything at home very quickly. That requires decent mechanics. I'd only really recommend a phoenix/oracle opening in high platinum or above.
Thanks very much for this!
I'd really like to learn some reaction plays, knowing what to do after a scout to ensure that I stay ahead. What is the best way I can go about learning this?
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I have been doing the stargate - > 4 gates -> robo -> colossus expand build in PvZ but I have been having some trouble. Firstly, I don't seem to be able to do a lot of damage to the Zerg's economy with my phoenix. Usually I find they make two spore crawlers at each base, so drones are pretty hard to harass, so all I get is a few overlords, maybe a queen or some drones - but that's about it.
Next, I don't know when I should take my third, I seem to die to hydra/swarm host pushes. I know one of my problems is that I usually let them set-up outside my third, which is bad obviously, but I find that some players just play with a lot of roach/hydra aggression in which case you wouldn't want to be out on the map - so it seems like versus roach/hydra you need to stay near your base, and versus swarm host you need to be on the map with your army? When exactly should you take a third?
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On March 15 2013 22:24 Salv wrote:
I have been doing the stargate - > 4 gates -> robo -> colossus expand build in PvZ but I have been having some trouble. Firstly, I don't seem to be able to do a lot of damage to the Zerg's economy with my phoenix. Usually I find they make two spore crawlers at each base, so drones are pretty hard to harass, so all I get is a few overlords, maybe a queen or some drones - but that's about it.
Next, I don't know when I should take my third, I seem to die to hydra/swarm host pushes. I know one of my problems is that I usually let them set-up outside my third, which is bad obviously, but I find that some players just play with a lot of roach/hydra aggression in which case you wouldn't want to be out on the map - so it seems like versus roach/hydra you need to stay near your base, and versus swarm host you need to be on the map with your army? When exactly should you take a third?
I've been having a lot of trouble with swarm hosts as well, and I haven't really figured anything out. They offer the same power as brood lords, but much cheaper and earlier in the game. Tbh if we can get someone a bit higher than mid masters in here to explain the thought process behind dealing with these/what tech to choose in the midgame, that'd be great.
I have a ton of trouble deciding what to do when they get out vipers or swarmhosts.
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On March 15 2013 08:43 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 08:29 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 08:11 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:05 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 04:37 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 14 2013 22:13 Kyoshi wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
I'm struggling with most matchups but in particular DT opening against zerg. For sure they are good units for the midgame/lategame but I end up investing too much early game gas which is needed for tech for mid game. Also, I fall behind quickly as I'm on 1base to opponents 2 (sometimes even 3) base.
Once you work something less gimmicky let me know. I'm enjoying the FFE, 5 Pheonix Harras (Overlords and Drones) -> Colussus, 3rd base and Void Ray/Templar/Tempest Late game. The second PvZ play should be pretty interesting to you if you want something that's solid. You open up every tech path and devote little to harassment while getting huge returns, it's fairly straightforward. If gateway expands aren't your cup of tea then try the build from daily 436, with some oracle harass mixed in. In a nutshell you FFE and then go 4g robo sg, and take a third. It's the safest thing in the world after FFE. Okay thank you for the reference. Looks like i've been doing a similar build but more on the fly. I would also like to ask about PvP. Most of my games have opened up Pheonix vs Pheonix or some sort of oracle play with the occassional 4gate. However, DT's are a problem as going Robo isn't viable to open with anymore I was wondering how to counter DTs. (Sometimes I go for them too and just win straight up) Is it the oracle that has detection or MSC? I realise there was another form of detection that isn't an observer or cannon but I haven't found it yet. Also, just like WoL I'm struggling against Terrans who split there army (2 Medivac drops, Push at front with 2 Medivacs, bio and a couple of vikings). I'm not confident with my PvT all-ins so I'm yet to try oracles/stalker/zealot/MSC all-in. Has anyone found any HT FE builds that might be able to shut down drops a bit better with charge/storm/MSC. (MSC for the Time Warp and easy storms) It's the oracle that detects, so I'd imagine SG players would FF their ramp until the oracle gets back to detect, or until you get some detection out from a robo or forge. There's an older Sase stargate > robo build floating around that would probably handle DT's just fine if you're dead set on opening SG every pvp. As for your PvT, post a replay. As far as I know the most common HT first builds have always been the 3 - 4 gate aggression into fast third builds that got popular a few months ago, not sure if they're still played though. I will note that with widow mines coming out so fast, it's probably not a good idea to start going HT first, as you'll have a lot more build order losses. Still, definitely post me some of your PvT losses. Thanks for your input once again. I'm currently at school and won't be home for a while. When I do however I'll collect some of my losses vs terran and maybe play a few more to try and find the problem myself. I know one of my games I may have taken a greedy 3rd without any pressure so the terran was able to out unit me and with bad MSC micro I stand no chance. I'm so used to being able to get an early 3rd with a couple of colussus, poking at 2/3 colussus then falling back to double forge/3rd base and HT Tech. Is the "R" Keybinding the detection on the Oracle? Thanks again. As a general rule for PvT, I never take a third unless I can confirm that the terran intends to take his, it's just so risky. I really like double forge in general though, but the thing with double forge builds is that your whole game is building up to the maxed attack you make at 3-3. I wouldn't so much play a back and forth game with double forge builds. No idea what the keybind is for detecting with oracles, though.
Just played a game where I got trashed so bad by a terran who simply, just out macro'd me. Not sure where I can improve/hit a timing so I don't run into this sort of crazy stompfest by the terran. I had some miscontrol in the final engage but I was so far behind tbh, I don't think it would have matter much.
http://drop.sc/310488
Thanks and I hope you hear your feedback. If you have skype, we might be able to continue this conversation on there. PM me your skype name and I'll add you.
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I watched the IEM games of Yonghwa versus Ret - in which Yonghwa does the stargate/4gate/robo build twice versus Ret to great effect, but in only one of those games does Ret make swarm hosts, and he does it more like a timing attack and it didn't come until 13-14 minutes, by that time Yonghwa had 3 colossi, stalkers, and 4-5 void rays. I usually have 2-3 colossi and 1 void ray if that when I get attacked by swarm hosts.
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On March 15 2013 22:40 Kyoshi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 08:43 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:29 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 08:11 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:05 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 04:37 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 14 2013 22:13 Kyoshi wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
I'm struggling with most matchups but in particular DT opening against zerg. For sure they are good units for the midgame/lategame but I end up investing too much early game gas which is needed for tech for mid game. Also, I fall behind quickly as I'm on 1base to opponents 2 (sometimes even 3) base.
Once you work something less gimmicky let me know. I'm enjoying the FFE, 5 Pheonix Harras (Overlords and Drones) -> Colussus, 3rd base and Void Ray/Templar/Tempest Late game. The second PvZ play should be pretty interesting to you if you want something that's solid. You open up every tech path and devote little to harassment while getting huge returns, it's fairly straightforward. If gateway expands aren't your cup of tea then try the build from daily 436, with some oracle harass mixed in. In a nutshell you FFE and then go 4g robo sg, and take a third. It's the safest thing in the world after FFE. Okay thank you for the reference. Looks like i've been doing a similar build but more on the fly. I would also like to ask about PvP. Most of my games have opened up Pheonix vs Pheonix or some sort of oracle play with the occassional 4gate. However, DT's are a problem as going Robo isn't viable to open with anymore I was wondering how to counter DTs. (Sometimes I go for them too and just win straight up) Is it the oracle that has detection or MSC? I realise there was another form of detection that isn't an observer or cannon but I haven't found it yet. Also, just like WoL I'm struggling against Terrans who split there army (2 Medivac drops, Push at front with 2 Medivacs, bio and a couple of vikings). I'm not confident with my PvT all-ins so I'm yet to try oracles/stalker/zealot/MSC all-in. Has anyone found any HT FE builds that might be able to shut down drops a bit better with charge/storm/MSC. (MSC for the Time Warp and easy storms) It's the oracle that detects, so I'd imagine SG players would FF their ramp until the oracle gets back to detect, or until you get some detection out from a robo or forge. There's an older Sase stargate > robo build floating around that would probably handle DT's just fine if you're dead set on opening SG every pvp. As for your PvT, post a replay. As far as I know the most common HT first builds have always been the 3 - 4 gate aggression into fast third builds that got popular a few months ago, not sure if they're still played though. I will note that with widow mines coming out so fast, it's probably not a good idea to start going HT first, as you'll have a lot more build order losses. Still, definitely post me some of your PvT losses. Thanks for your input once again. I'm currently at school and won't be home for a while. When I do however I'll collect some of my losses vs terran and maybe play a few more to try and find the problem myself. I know one of my games I may have taken a greedy 3rd without any pressure so the terran was able to out unit me and with bad MSC micro I stand no chance. I'm so used to being able to get an early 3rd with a couple of colussus, poking at 2/3 colussus then falling back to double forge/3rd base and HT Tech. Is the "R" Keybinding the detection on the Oracle? Thanks again. As a general rule for PvT, I never take a third unless I can confirm that the terran intends to take his, it's just so risky. I really like double forge in general though, but the thing with double forge builds is that your whole game is building up to the maxed attack you make at 3-3. I wouldn't so much play a back and forth game with double forge builds. No idea what the keybind is for detecting with oracles, though. Just played a game where I got trashed so bad by a terran who simply, just out macro'd me. Not sure where I can improve/hit a timing so I don't run into this sort of crazy stompfest by the terran. I had some miscontrol in the final engage but I was so far behind tbh, I don't think it would have matter much. http://drop.sc/310488Thanks and I hope you hear your feedback. If you have skype, we might be able to continue this conversation on there. PM me your skype name and I'll add you.
You didn't have any map vision for the whole game, so you couldn't tell what he was doing / not doing. When you can see what he's doing, it's easier to see where you can cut corners or take advantage. For example, if you had seen the size of his army and saw no third base from him, you could have known that there was no way you could hold a third, so you could have massed up a bit more and done so later, saved yourself 400 minerals.
Losing mining time and eight probes early in the game (the widow mines) hurt you a lot. You didn't see it coming and that cost you. Sending a probe out earlier to confirm that your opponent walled should make you alter your build a bit. You went 1 gateway / 1 assim, which is a 1 gate expansion build, but you wound up floating 800/200(300?) before deciding to build a robo and then a nexus, so it's as if you just took the risk of an FE without altering your build according to what you saw. I would have added a second gas, added a robo, second gateway, then expanded - without banking the minerals and gas, that maybe would have allowed you to see the drop sooner, and if you see a wall at your opponents ramp you should probably stay home with your stalkers.
One tip I can give is that it take 3 stalkers and an observer in your mineral line to stop a widow mine drop without moving your probes. Your stalkers will kill it just after it burrows, before it can fire a shot. With two widow mines, you have to pull your probes and then take them out, which should net you a bit of an earlier expansion with no losses except mining time.
Other than that, his advantage just really snowballed from the first 8 probe kills and then him being able to do whatever he wanted and you not reacting. After he gets ahead he's probably comfortable taking whatever greedy risks he'd like, and without you being able to spot it and either punish or match that, he's going to roll you in battle.
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On March 15 2013 22:55 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 22:40 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 08:43 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:29 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 08:11 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:05 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 04:37 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 14 2013 22:13 Kyoshi wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
I'm struggling with most matchups but in particular DT opening against zerg. For sure they are good units for the midgame/lategame but I end up investing too much early game gas which is needed for tech for mid game. Also, I fall behind quickly as I'm on 1base to opponents 2 (sometimes even 3) base.
Once you work something less gimmicky let me know. I'm enjoying the FFE, 5 Pheonix Harras (Overlords and Drones) -> Colussus, 3rd base and Void Ray/Templar/Tempest Late game. The second PvZ play should be pretty interesting to you if you want something that's solid. You open up every tech path and devote little to harassment while getting huge returns, it's fairly straightforward. If gateway expands aren't your cup of tea then try the build from daily 436, with some oracle harass mixed in. In a nutshell you FFE and then go 4g robo sg, and take a third. It's the safest thing in the world after FFE. Okay thank you for the reference. Looks like i've been doing a similar build but more on the fly. I would also like to ask about PvP. Most of my games have opened up Pheonix vs Pheonix or some sort of oracle play with the occassional 4gate. However, DT's are a problem as going Robo isn't viable to open with anymore I was wondering how to counter DTs. (Sometimes I go for them too and just win straight up) Is it the oracle that has detection or MSC? I realise there was another form of detection that isn't an observer or cannon but I haven't found it yet. Also, just like WoL I'm struggling against Terrans who split there army (2 Medivac drops, Push at front with 2 Medivacs, bio and a couple of vikings). I'm not confident with my PvT all-ins so I'm yet to try oracles/stalker/zealot/MSC all-in. Has anyone found any HT FE builds that might be able to shut down drops a bit better with charge/storm/MSC. (MSC for the Time Warp and easy storms) It's the oracle that detects, so I'd imagine SG players would FF their ramp until the oracle gets back to detect, or until you get some detection out from a robo or forge. There's an older Sase stargate > robo build floating around that would probably handle DT's just fine if you're dead set on opening SG every pvp. As for your PvT, post a replay. As far as I know the most common HT first builds have always been the 3 - 4 gate aggression into fast third builds that got popular a few months ago, not sure if they're still played though. I will note that with widow mines coming out so fast, it's probably not a good idea to start going HT first, as you'll have a lot more build order losses. Still, definitely post me some of your PvT losses. Thanks for your input once again. I'm currently at school and won't be home for a while. When I do however I'll collect some of my losses vs terran and maybe play a few more to try and find the problem myself. I know one of my games I may have taken a greedy 3rd without any pressure so the terran was able to out unit me and with bad MSC micro I stand no chance. I'm so used to being able to get an early 3rd with a couple of colussus, poking at 2/3 colussus then falling back to double forge/3rd base and HT Tech. Is the "R" Keybinding the detection on the Oracle? Thanks again. As a general rule for PvT, I never take a third unless I can confirm that the terran intends to take his, it's just so risky. I really like double forge in general though, but the thing with double forge builds is that your whole game is building up to the maxed attack you make at 3-3. I wouldn't so much play a back and forth game with double forge builds. No idea what the keybind is for detecting with oracles, though. Just played a game where I got trashed so bad by a terran who simply, just out macro'd me. Not sure where I can improve/hit a timing so I don't run into this sort of crazy stompfest by the terran. I had some miscontrol in the final engage but I was so far behind tbh, I don't think it would have matter much. http://drop.sc/310488Thanks and I hope you hear your feedback. If you have skype, we might be able to continue this conversation on there. PM me your skype name and I'll add you. You didn't have any map vision for the whole game, so you couldn't tell what he was doing / not doing. When you can see what he's doing, it's easier to see where you can cut corners or take advantage. For example, if you had seen the size of his army and saw no third base from him, you could have known that there was no way you could hold a third, so you could have massed up a bit more and done so later, saved yourself 400 minerals. Losing mining time and eight probes early in the game (the widow mines) hurt you a lot. You didn't see it coming and that cost you. Sending a probe out earlier to confirm that your opponent walled should make you alter your build a bit. You went 1 gateway / 1 assim, which is a 1 gate expansion build, but you wound up floating 800/200(300?) before deciding to build a robo and then a nexus, so it's as if you just took the risk of an FE without altering your build according to what you saw. I would have added a second gas, added a robo, second gateway, then expanded - without banking the minerals and gas, that maybe would have allowed you to see the drop sooner, and if you see a wall at your opponents ramp you should probably stay home with your stalkers. One tip I can give is that it take 3 stalkers and an observer in your mineral line to stop a widow mine drop without moving your probes. Your stalkers will kill it just after it burrows, before it can fire a shot. With two widow mines, you have to pull your probes and then take them out, which should net you a bit of an earlier expansion with no losses except mining time. Other than that, his advantage just really snowballed from the first 8 probe kills and then him being able to do whatever he wanted and you not reacting. After he gets ahead he's probably comfortable taking whatever greedy risks he'd like, and without you being able to spot it and either punish or match that, he's going to roll you in battle.
Thanks for your feedback.
This was a sloppy game but I don't fully believe it was a "map vision" loss. I saw the expansion when i peaked up the ramp and expected Widowmines to be delayed... which they weren't really. The fact that he can out supply me by 70 because of 8 probes seems a bit dumb to me. I cut corners by doing a 1Gate FE and still lost every bit economically.
I seem to get trashed by almost every terran. Any current meta builds rather than what I'm doing now?
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On March 15 2013 23:02 Kyoshi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 22:55 Salv wrote:On March 15 2013 22:40 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 08:43 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:29 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 08:11 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:05 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 04:37 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 14 2013 22:13 Kyoshi wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
I'm struggling with most matchups but in particular DT opening against zerg. For sure they are good units for the midgame/lategame but I end up investing too much early game gas which is needed for tech for mid game. Also, I fall behind quickly as I'm on 1base to opponents 2 (sometimes even 3) base.
Once you work something less gimmicky let me know. I'm enjoying the FFE, 5 Pheonix Harras (Overlords and Drones) -> Colussus, 3rd base and Void Ray/Templar/Tempest Late game. The second PvZ play should be pretty interesting to you if you want something that's solid. You open up every tech path and devote little to harassment while getting huge returns, it's fairly straightforward. If gateway expands aren't your cup of tea then try the build from daily 436, with some oracle harass mixed in. In a nutshell you FFE and then go 4g robo sg, and take a third. It's the safest thing in the world after FFE. Okay thank you for the reference. Looks like i've been doing a similar build but more on the fly. I would also like to ask about PvP. Most of my games have opened up Pheonix vs Pheonix or some sort of oracle play with the occassional 4gate. However, DT's are a problem as going Robo isn't viable to open with anymore I was wondering how to counter DTs. (Sometimes I go for them too and just win straight up) Is it the oracle that has detection or MSC? I realise there was another form of detection that isn't an observer or cannon but I haven't found it yet. Also, just like WoL I'm struggling against Terrans who split there army (2 Medivac drops, Push at front with 2 Medivacs, bio and a couple of vikings). I'm not confident with my PvT all-ins so I'm yet to try oracles/stalker/zealot/MSC all-in. Has anyone found any HT FE builds that might be able to shut down drops a bit better with charge/storm/MSC. (MSC for the Time Warp and easy storms) It's the oracle that detects, so I'd imagine SG players would FF their ramp until the oracle gets back to detect, or until you get some detection out from a robo or forge. There's an older Sase stargate > robo build floating around that would probably handle DT's just fine if you're dead set on opening SG every pvp. As for your PvT, post a replay. As far as I know the most common HT first builds have always been the 3 - 4 gate aggression into fast third builds that got popular a few months ago, not sure if they're still played though. I will note that with widow mines coming out so fast, it's probably not a good idea to start going HT first, as you'll have a lot more build order losses. Still, definitely post me some of your PvT losses. Thanks for your input once again. I'm currently at school and won't be home for a while. When I do however I'll collect some of my losses vs terran and maybe play a few more to try and find the problem myself. I know one of my games I may have taken a greedy 3rd without any pressure so the terran was able to out unit me and with bad MSC micro I stand no chance. I'm so used to being able to get an early 3rd with a couple of colussus, poking at 2/3 colussus then falling back to double forge/3rd base and HT Tech. Is the "R" Keybinding the detection on the Oracle? Thanks again. As a general rule for PvT, I never take a third unless I can confirm that the terran intends to take his, it's just so risky. I really like double forge in general though, but the thing with double forge builds is that your whole game is building up to the maxed attack you make at 3-3. I wouldn't so much play a back and forth game with double forge builds. No idea what the keybind is for detecting with oracles, though. Just played a game where I got trashed so bad by a terran who simply, just out macro'd me. Not sure where I can improve/hit a timing so I don't run into this sort of crazy stompfest by the terran. I had some miscontrol in the final engage but I was so far behind tbh, I don't think it would have matter much. http://drop.sc/310488Thanks and I hope you hear your feedback. If you have skype, we might be able to continue this conversation on there. PM me your skype name and I'll add you. You didn't have any map vision for the whole game, so you couldn't tell what he was doing / not doing. When you can see what he's doing, it's easier to see where you can cut corners or take advantage. For example, if you had seen the size of his army and saw no third base from him, you could have known that there was no way you could hold a third, so you could have massed up a bit more and done so later, saved yourself 400 minerals. Losing mining time and eight probes early in the game (the widow mines) hurt you a lot. You didn't see it coming and that cost you. Sending a probe out earlier to confirm that your opponent walled should make you alter your build a bit. You went 1 gateway / 1 assim, which is a 1 gate expansion build, but you wound up floating 800/200(300?) before deciding to build a robo and then a nexus, so it's as if you just took the risk of an FE without altering your build according to what you saw. I would have added a second gas, added a robo, second gateway, then expanded - without banking the minerals and gas, that maybe would have allowed you to see the drop sooner, and if you see a wall at your opponents ramp you should probably stay home with your stalkers. One tip I can give is that it take 3 stalkers and an observer in your mineral line to stop a widow mine drop without moving your probes. Your stalkers will kill it just after it burrows, before it can fire a shot. With two widow mines, you have to pull your probes and then take them out, which should net you a bit of an earlier expansion with no losses except mining time. Other than that, his advantage just really snowballed from the first 8 probe kills and then him being able to do whatever he wanted and you not reacting. After he gets ahead he's probably comfortable taking whatever greedy risks he'd like, and without you being able to spot it and either punish or match that, he's going to roll you in battle. Thanks for your feedback. This was a sloppy game but I don't fully believe it was a "map vision" loss. I saw the expansion when i peaked up the ramp and expected Widowmines to be delayed... which they weren't really. The fact that he can out supply me by 70 because of 8 probes seems a bit dumb to me. I cut corners by doing a 1Gate FE and still lost every bit economically. I seem to get trashed by almost every terran. Any current meta builds rather than what I'm doing now?
The WM hurt you, but not as much as you think. Anyways, what I noticed most:
1. Your forges are spaced out weird
You want both forges about half done by the time your obs gets to his base, at 8 mins or so. You want to be able to cancel one if you see some trickery. Ideally have both forges done by 8:30
2. Map vision
In PvT you should always have eyes on 3 things. The drop lanes outside your outer bases, and his army. You can easily afford 3 obs that early.
3. Lack of early sentries
You want 3-4 sentries early to build energy for the big engagement later. They're cheap on minerals, so get them while you take your nat, so you can afford to chrono workers and get more infrastructure.
4. Warpgate cycles
You missed a ton of these, and this is mostly what cost you the game. You did stay on 3 gates a little too long, but it's the missing warp cycles that cost you. You had almost 2k banked when the fight happened, ideally you want triple the zealot count you had.
Get the sentries and vision of the drop lanes/his army, so he can't deny your third so easily, and hit the warp cycles.
Edit: Keep in mind that there are criteria to be satisfied with every expand build. You should have finished at 6 minutes:
3 gateways warping to warpgates
Nexus finishing
fully saturated mineral line and both gas filled
Since you opted to get a robo and then nexus, treat it the same way, but get the robo earlier.
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On March 15 2013 22:24 Salv wrote:
I have been doing the stargate - > 4 gates -> robo -> colossus expand build in PvZ but I have been having some trouble. Firstly, I don't seem to be able to do a lot of damage to the Zerg's economy with my phoenix. Usually I find they make two spore crawlers at each base, so drones are pretty hard to harass, so all I get is a few overlords, maybe a queen or some drones - but that's about it.
Next, I don't know when I should take my third, I seem to die to hydra/swarm host pushes. I know one of my problems is that I usually let them set-up outside my third, which is bad obviously, but I find that some players just play with a lot of roach/hydra aggression in which case you wouldn't want to be out on the map - so it seems like versus roach/hydra you need to stay near your base, and versus swarm host you need to be on the map with your army? When exactly should you take a third?
You are doing acceptable damage with the phoenix. You can't hope to do more than that unless you wait for 4 unscouted phoenix before moving out, but that doesn't always work and your own scouting will be late. Stargate play is not designed to do a lot of damage, but rather to scout, deny scout, force hydras and be safe against muta or all-ins.
From my experience: I've been getting the third between 9:30-10:30, assuming standard play. You need the scout information with the phoenix to know where to position your army. When I scout hydra or swarm host, I just get the colossus bay as soon as the robo finishes and I have enough colossus to hold his pressure (you need good forcefielding early to buy some time, or it snow balls out of control). Against the compositions you mentioned, I usually can't get out in the map until I am nearly maxed, so I just hold his pressure and try to drop or warp zealots to deny expansions. It can be very hard to micro in those situations, specially if he keep trying to snipe your obs and when he starts adding corruptors or vipers.
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Am I missing something or is Hatch first on the new maps actually the best choice?
Seems like I have to wall my Probe in with 3 pylons in order to Cannon rush and then place the Cannon inside. I have to invest a lot and if Zerg just cancels and gets the hatch somewhere different I am behind...
3 Pylons 1 maybe even 2 Cannons and a Probe to delay the hatch a little bit..
On Whirlwind especially I see no way to punish hatch first without a huge investment...
Gateway expand sucks vs Hatch first so it feels like Protoss has to play from a bad start on maps that don't allow you to take a reasonably fast third base.....
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On March 15 2013 23:02 Kyoshi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 22:55 Salv wrote:On March 15 2013 22:40 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 08:43 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:29 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 08:11 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:05 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 04:37 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 14 2013 22:13 Kyoshi wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
I'm struggling with most matchups but in particular DT opening against zerg. For sure they are good units for the midgame/lategame but I end up investing too much early game gas which is needed for tech for mid game. Also, I fall behind quickly as I'm on 1base to opponents 2 (sometimes even 3) base.
Once you work something less gimmicky let me know. I'm enjoying the FFE, 5 Pheonix Harras (Overlords and Drones) -> Colussus, 3rd base and Void Ray/Templar/Tempest Late game. The second PvZ play should be pretty interesting to you if you want something that's solid. You open up every tech path and devote little to harassment while getting huge returns, it's fairly straightforward. If gateway expands aren't your cup of tea then try the build from daily 436, with some oracle harass mixed in. In a nutshell you FFE and then go 4g robo sg, and take a third. It's the safest thing in the world after FFE. Okay thank you for the reference. Looks like i've been doing a similar build but more on the fly. I would also like to ask about PvP. Most of my games have opened up Pheonix vs Pheonix or some sort of oracle play with the occassional 4gate. However, DT's are a problem as going Robo isn't viable to open with anymore I was wondering how to counter DTs. (Sometimes I go for them too and just win straight up) Is it the oracle that has detection or MSC? I realise there was another form of detection that isn't an observer or cannon but I haven't found it yet. Also, just like WoL I'm struggling against Terrans who split there army (2 Medivac drops, Push at front with 2 Medivacs, bio and a couple of vikings). I'm not confident with my PvT all-ins so I'm yet to try oracles/stalker/zealot/MSC all-in. Has anyone found any HT FE builds that might be able to shut down drops a bit better with charge/storm/MSC. (MSC for the Time Warp and easy storms) It's the oracle that detects, so I'd imagine SG players would FF their ramp until the oracle gets back to detect, or until you get some detection out from a robo or forge. There's an older Sase stargate > robo build floating around that would probably handle DT's just fine if you're dead set on opening SG every pvp. As for your PvT, post a replay. As far as I know the most common HT first builds have always been the 3 - 4 gate aggression into fast third builds that got popular a few months ago, not sure if they're still played though. I will note that with widow mines coming out so fast, it's probably not a good idea to start going HT first, as you'll have a lot more build order losses. Still, definitely post me some of your PvT losses. Thanks for your input once again. I'm currently at school and won't be home for a while. When I do however I'll collect some of my losses vs terran and maybe play a few more to try and find the problem myself. I know one of my games I may have taken a greedy 3rd without any pressure so the terran was able to out unit me and with bad MSC micro I stand no chance. I'm so used to being able to get an early 3rd with a couple of colussus, poking at 2/3 colussus then falling back to double forge/3rd base and HT Tech. Is the "R" Keybinding the detection on the Oracle? Thanks again. As a general rule for PvT, I never take a third unless I can confirm that the terran intends to take his, it's just so risky. I really like double forge in general though, but the thing with double forge builds is that your whole game is building up to the maxed attack you make at 3-3. I wouldn't so much play a back and forth game with double forge builds. No idea what the keybind is for detecting with oracles, though. Just played a game where I got trashed so bad by a terran who simply, just out macro'd me. Not sure where I can improve/hit a timing so I don't run into this sort of crazy stompfest by the terran. I had some miscontrol in the final engage but I was so far behind tbh, I don't think it would have matter much. http://drop.sc/310488Thanks and I hope you hear your feedback. If you have skype, we might be able to continue this conversation on there. PM me your skype name and I'll add you. You didn't have any map vision for the whole game, so you couldn't tell what he was doing / not doing. When you can see what he's doing, it's easier to see where you can cut corners or take advantage. For example, if you had seen the size of his army and saw no third base from him, you could have known that there was no way you could hold a third, so you could have massed up a bit more and done so later, saved yourself 400 minerals. Losing mining time and eight probes early in the game (the widow mines) hurt you a lot. You didn't see it coming and that cost you. Sending a probe out earlier to confirm that your opponent walled should make you alter your build a bit. You went 1 gateway / 1 assim, which is a 1 gate expansion build, but you wound up floating 800/200(300?) before deciding to build a robo and then a nexus, so it's as if you just took the risk of an FE without altering your build according to what you saw. I would have added a second gas, added a robo, second gateway, then expanded - without banking the minerals and gas, that maybe would have allowed you to see the drop sooner, and if you see a wall at your opponents ramp you should probably stay home with your stalkers. One tip I can give is that it take 3 stalkers and an observer in your mineral line to stop a widow mine drop without moving your probes. Your stalkers will kill it just after it burrows, before it can fire a shot. With two widow mines, you have to pull your probes and then take them out, which should net you a bit of an earlier expansion with no losses except mining time. Other than that, his advantage just really snowballed from the first 8 probe kills and then him being able to do whatever he wanted and you not reacting. After he gets ahead he's probably comfortable taking whatever greedy risks he'd like, and without you being able to spot it and either punish or match that, he's going to roll you in battle. Thanks for your feedback. This was a sloppy game but I don't fully believe it was a "map vision" loss. I saw the expansion when i peaked up the ramp and expected Widowmines to be delayed... which they weren't really. The fact that he can out supply me by 70 because of 8 probes seems a bit dumb to me. I cut corners by doing a 1Gate FE and still lost every bit economically. I seem to get trashed by almost every terran. Any current meta builds rather than what I'm doing now?
http://drop.sc/310494
Try that out, it's a passable 1g robo expo. I never do that build, I just 1g expo, so it felt a little weird, but all the timings are right. This is what my games against bio terrans usually look like, except I just 1g expand. If you have any questions about anything just ask.
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Germany488 Posts
On March 15 2013 23:26 rEalGuapo wrote:
Am I missing something or is Hatch first on the new maps actually the best choice?
Seems like I have to wall my Probe in with 3 pylons in order to Cannon rush and then place the Cannon inside. I have to invest a lot and if Zerg just cancels and gets the hatch somewhere different I am behind...
3 Pylons 1 maybe even 2 Cannons and a Probe to delay the hatch a little bit..
On Whirlwind especially I see no way to punish hatch first without a huge investment...
Gateway expand sucks vs Hatch first so it feels like Protoss has to play from a bad start on maps that don't allow you to take a reasonably fast third base.....
I don't think so, to be honest. As you said - many Zerg go Hatch first now on the new maps, I don't even know why.
On Whirlwind I cannon rushed several Zergs. Honestly, about 90% go Hatch first on Whirlwind.
@ Topic:
What's your favourite way to counter the speed medivacs? I found nice PvT openings by HerO & Sage and copied them with good success. But in the midgame I have a lot of trouble against the faster medivacs. They just snipe whatever they want and fly away. Is Stargate tech (phoenix) worth the effort to counter the faster medivacs? I feel, with cannons & blink stalkers I have no chance to counter the speedvacs.
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On March 16 2013 00:06 Bahajinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 23:26 rEalGuapo wrote:
Am I missing something or is Hatch first on the new maps actually the best choice?
Seems like I have to wall my Probe in with 3 pylons in order to Cannon rush and then place the Cannon inside. I have to invest a lot and if Zerg just cancels and gets the hatch somewhere different I am behind...
3 Pylons 1 maybe even 2 Cannons and a Probe to delay the hatch a little bit..
On Whirlwind especially I see no way to punish hatch first without a huge investment...
Gateway expand sucks vs Hatch first so it feels like Protoss has to play from a bad start on maps that don't allow you to take a reasonably fast third base.....
I don't think so, to be honest. As you said - many Zerg go Hatch first now on the new maps, I don't even know why. On Whirlwind I cannon rushed several Zergs. Honestly, about 90% go Hatch first on Whirlwind. @ Topic: What's your favourite way to counter the speed medivacs? I found nice PvT openings by HerO & Sage and copied them with good success. But in the midgame I have a lot of trouble against the faster medivacs. They just snipe whatever they want and fly away. Is Stargate tech (phoenix) worth the effort to counter the faster medivacs? I feel, with cannons & blink stalkers I have no chance to counter the speedvacs.
I feel like it all comes down to army splitting/positioning, and just keeping eyes on his army as much as you can. I rarely if ever cannon to stop drops, and haven't had too much issue with them so far. I wouldn't worry too much about it if you have strong positioning and awareness.
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Germany488 Posts
On March 16 2013 00:12 ThaReckoning wrote:I feel like it all comes down to army splitting/positioning, and just keeping eyes on his army as much as you can. I rarely if ever cannon to stop drops, and haven't had too much issue with them so far. I wouldn't worry too much about it if you have strong positioning and awareness.
My map awareness and positioning was pretty strong in WoL, so I have to try it out that way again.
Why do you think cannons are bad vs drops? I always used them in my mineral lines, especially now because of widow mines.
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Austria24422 Posts
On March 16 2013 00:21 Bahajinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 00:12 ThaReckoning wrote:I feel like it all comes down to army splitting/positioning, and just keeping eyes on his army as much as you can. I rarely if ever cannon to stop drops, and haven't had too much issue with them so far. I wouldn't worry too much about it if you have strong positioning and awareness. My map awareness and positioning was pretty strong in WoL, so I have to try it out that way again. Why do you think cannons are bad vs drops? I always used them in my mineral lines, especially now because of widow mines.
Cannons are good vs drops but not early. You don't wanna invest the money. Instead, 6 stalkers will 2shot a medivac and you want a few stalkers anyway with most builds. Now though it's always a good idea against mines, yes. Cannons don't kill medivacs though.
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EPT
