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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On March 15 2013 23:53 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 23:02 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 22:55 Salv wrote:On March 15 2013 22:40 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 08:43 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:29 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 08:11 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:05 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 04:37 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 14 2013 22:13 Kyoshi wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
I'm struggling with most matchups but in particular DT opening against zerg. For sure they are good units for the midgame/lategame but I end up investing too much early game gas which is needed for tech for mid game. Also, I fall behind quickly as I'm on 1base to opponents 2 (sometimes even 3) base.
Once you work something less gimmicky let me know. I'm enjoying the FFE, 5 Pheonix Harras (Overlords and Drones) -> Colussus, 3rd base and Void Ray/Templar/Tempest Late game. The second PvZ play should be pretty interesting to you if you want something that's solid. You open up every tech path and devote little to harassment while getting huge returns, it's fairly straightforward. If gateway expands aren't your cup of tea then try the build from daily 436, with some oracle harass mixed in. In a nutshell you FFE and then go 4g robo sg, and take a third. It's the safest thing in the world after FFE. Okay thank you for the reference. Looks like i've been doing a similar build but more on the fly. I would also like to ask about PvP. Most of my games have opened up Pheonix vs Pheonix or some sort of oracle play with the occassional 4gate. However, DT's are a problem as going Robo isn't viable to open with anymore I was wondering how to counter DTs. (Sometimes I go for them too and just win straight up) Is it the oracle that has detection or MSC? I realise there was another form of detection that isn't an observer or cannon but I haven't found it yet. Also, just like WoL I'm struggling against Terrans who split there army (2 Medivac drops, Push at front with 2 Medivacs, bio and a couple of vikings). I'm not confident with my PvT all-ins so I'm yet to try oracles/stalker/zealot/MSC all-in. Has anyone found any HT FE builds that might be able to shut down drops a bit better with charge/storm/MSC. (MSC for the Time Warp and easy storms) It's the oracle that detects, so I'd imagine SG players would FF their ramp until the oracle gets back to detect, or until you get some detection out from a robo or forge. There's an older Sase stargate > robo build floating around that would probably handle DT's just fine if you're dead set on opening SG every pvp. As for your PvT, post a replay. As far as I know the most common HT first builds have always been the 3 - 4 gate aggression into fast third builds that got popular a few months ago, not sure if they're still played though. I will note that with widow mines coming out so fast, it's probably not a good idea to start going HT first, as you'll have a lot more build order losses. Still, definitely post me some of your PvT losses. Thanks for your input once again. I'm currently at school and won't be home for a while. When I do however I'll collect some of my losses vs terran and maybe play a few more to try and find the problem myself. I know one of my games I may have taken a greedy 3rd without any pressure so the terran was able to out unit me and with bad MSC micro I stand no chance. I'm so used to being able to get an early 3rd with a couple of colussus, poking at 2/3 colussus then falling back to double forge/3rd base and HT Tech. Is the "R" Keybinding the detection on the Oracle? Thanks again. As a general rule for PvT, I never take a third unless I can confirm that the terran intends to take his, it's just so risky. I really like double forge in general though, but the thing with double forge builds is that your whole game is building up to the maxed attack you make at 3-3. I wouldn't so much play a back and forth game with double forge builds. No idea what the keybind is for detecting with oracles, though. Just played a game where I got trashed so bad by a terran who simply, just out macro'd me. Not sure where I can improve/hit a timing so I don't run into this sort of crazy stompfest by the terran. I had some miscontrol in the final engage but I was so far behind tbh, I don't think it would have matter much. http://drop.sc/310488Thanks and I hope you hear your feedback. If you have skype, we might be able to continue this conversation on there. PM me your skype name and I'll add you. You didn't have any map vision for the whole game, so you couldn't tell what he was doing / not doing. When you can see what he's doing, it's easier to see where you can cut corners or take advantage. For example, if you had seen the size of his army and saw no third base from him, you could have known that there was no way you could hold a third, so you could have massed up a bit more and done so later, saved yourself 400 minerals. Losing mining time and eight probes early in the game (the widow mines) hurt you a lot. You didn't see it coming and that cost you. Sending a probe out earlier to confirm that your opponent walled should make you alter your build a bit. You went 1 gateway / 1 assim, which is a 1 gate expansion build, but you wound up floating 800/200(300?) before deciding to build a robo and then a nexus, so it's as if you just took the risk of an FE without altering your build according to what you saw. I would have added a second gas, added a robo, second gateway, then expanded - without banking the minerals and gas, that maybe would have allowed you to see the drop sooner, and if you see a wall at your opponents ramp you should probably stay home with your stalkers. One tip I can give is that it take 3 stalkers and an observer in your mineral line to stop a widow mine drop without moving your probes. Your stalkers will kill it just after it burrows, before it can fire a shot. With two widow mines, you have to pull your probes and then take them out, which should net you a bit of an earlier expansion with no losses except mining time. Other than that, his advantage just really snowballed from the first 8 probe kills and then him being able to do whatever he wanted and you not reacting. After he gets ahead he's probably comfortable taking whatever greedy risks he'd like, and without you being able to spot it and either punish or match that, he's going to roll you in battle. Thanks for your feedback. This was a sloppy game but I don't fully believe it was a "map vision" loss. I saw the expansion when i peaked up the ramp and expected Widowmines to be delayed... which they weren't really. The fact that he can out supply me by 70 because of 8 probes seems a bit dumb to me. I cut corners by doing a 1Gate FE and still lost every bit economically. I seem to get trashed by almost every terran. Any current meta builds rather than what I'm doing now? http://drop.sc/310494Try that out, it's a passable 1g robo expo. I never do that build, I just 1g expo, so it felt a little weird, but all the timings are right. This is what my games against bio terrans usually look like, except I just 1g expand. If you have any questions about anything just ask.
Thank you for your input.
There's a few things i'd like to say/ask.
Firstly, I open 1g robo as I believe widow mines can come way too quickly for me to deal with if I go 1gate expand.
I notice at 10:00 you have 4 zealots and 4 sentries at your front, 4 stalkers and your MSC at your main mineral line, +1 is still just out of being completed - How would you go about dealing with the usual 10minute push with this many units?
I would expect to get stomped when a 2 dozen marine/marauder come charging into my main with 2 vacs backing them up.
I would also like to ask, are you meant to pass 16workers per expansion or are you doing this to make taking the 3rd quicker as no pressure is coming (of course AI).
Blink > Charge at 11:15 - is this standard? Should I not worry about Charge as I have Forcefields (And time warp if I don't just let my MSC die)?
Thanks again.
Edit: I'm going to bed so I will speak to you in a few hours. Hopefully be up to watch HuK play in MLG.
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On March 16 2013 00:33 Kyoshi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 23:53 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 23:02 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 22:55 Salv wrote:On March 15 2013 22:40 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 08:43 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:29 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 08:11 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:05 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 04:37 ThaReckoning wrote:
[quote]
The second PvZ play should be pretty interesting to you if you want something that's solid. You open up every tech path and devote little to harassment while getting huge returns, it's fairly straightforward. If gateway expands aren't your cup of tea then try the build from daily 436, with some oracle harass mixed in. In a nutshell you FFE and then go 4g robo sg, and take a third. It's the safest thing in the world after FFE. Okay thank you for the reference. Looks like i've been doing a similar build but more on the fly. I would also like to ask about PvP. Most of my games have opened up Pheonix vs Pheonix or some sort of oracle play with the occassional 4gate. However, DT's are a problem as going Robo isn't viable to open with anymore I was wondering how to counter DTs. (Sometimes I go for them too and just win straight up) Is it the oracle that has detection or MSC? I realise there was another form of detection that isn't an observer or cannon but I haven't found it yet. Also, just like WoL I'm struggling against Terrans who split there army (2 Medivac drops, Push at front with 2 Medivacs, bio and a couple of vikings). I'm not confident with my PvT all-ins so I'm yet to try oracles/stalker/zealot/MSC all-in. Has anyone found any HT FE builds that might be able to shut down drops a bit better with charge/storm/MSC. (MSC for the Time Warp and easy storms) It's the oracle that detects, so I'd imagine SG players would FF their ramp until the oracle gets back to detect, or until you get some detection out from a robo or forge. There's an older Sase stargate > robo build floating around that would probably handle DT's just fine if you're dead set on opening SG every pvp. As for your PvT, post a replay. As far as I know the most common HT first builds have always been the 3 - 4 gate aggression into fast third builds that got popular a few months ago, not sure if they're still played though. I will note that with widow mines coming out so fast, it's probably not a good idea to start going HT first, as you'll have a lot more build order losses. Still, definitely post me some of your PvT losses. Thanks for your input once again. I'm currently at school and won't be home for a while. When I do however I'll collect some of my losses vs terran and maybe play a few more to try and find the problem myself. I know one of my games I may have taken a greedy 3rd without any pressure so the terran was able to out unit me and with bad MSC micro I stand no chance. I'm so used to being able to get an early 3rd with a couple of colussus, poking at 2/3 colussus then falling back to double forge/3rd base and HT Tech. Is the "R" Keybinding the detection on the Oracle? Thanks again. As a general rule for PvT, I never take a third unless I can confirm that the terran intends to take his, it's just so risky. I really like double forge in general though, but the thing with double forge builds is that your whole game is building up to the maxed attack you make at 3-3. I wouldn't so much play a back and forth game with double forge builds. No idea what the keybind is for detecting with oracles, though. Just played a game where I got trashed so bad by a terran who simply, just out macro'd me. Not sure where I can improve/hit a timing so I don't run into this sort of crazy stompfest by the terran. I had some miscontrol in the final engage but I was so far behind tbh, I don't think it would have matter much. http://drop.sc/310488Thanks and I hope you hear your feedback. If you have skype, we might be able to continue this conversation on there. PM me your skype name and I'll add you. You didn't have any map vision for the whole game, so you couldn't tell what he was doing / not doing. When you can see what he's doing, it's easier to see where you can cut corners or take advantage. For example, if you had seen the size of his army and saw no third base from him, you could have known that there was no way you could hold a third, so you could have massed up a bit more and done so later, saved yourself 400 minerals. Losing mining time and eight probes early in the game (the widow mines) hurt you a lot. You didn't see it coming and that cost you. Sending a probe out earlier to confirm that your opponent walled should make you alter your build a bit. You went 1 gateway / 1 assim, which is a 1 gate expansion build, but you wound up floating 800/200(300?) before deciding to build a robo and then a nexus, so it's as if you just took the risk of an FE without altering your build according to what you saw. I would have added a second gas, added a robo, second gateway, then expanded - without banking the minerals and gas, that maybe would have allowed you to see the drop sooner, and if you see a wall at your opponents ramp you should probably stay home with your stalkers. One tip I can give is that it take 3 stalkers and an observer in your mineral line to stop a widow mine drop without moving your probes. Your stalkers will kill it just after it burrows, before it can fire a shot. With two widow mines, you have to pull your probes and then take them out, which should net you a bit of an earlier expansion with no losses except mining time. Other than that, his advantage just really snowballed from the first 8 probe kills and then him being able to do whatever he wanted and you not reacting. After he gets ahead he's probably comfortable taking whatever greedy risks he'd like, and without you being able to spot it and either punish or match that, he's going to roll you in battle. Thanks for your feedback. This was a sloppy game but I don't fully believe it was a "map vision" loss. I saw the expansion when i peaked up the ramp and expected Widowmines to be delayed... which they weren't really. The fact that he can out supply me by 70 because of 8 probes seems a bit dumb to me. I cut corners by doing a 1Gate FE and still lost every bit economically. I seem to get trashed by almost every terran. Any current meta builds rather than what I'm doing now? http://drop.sc/310494Try that out, it's a passable 1g robo expo. I never do that build, I just 1g expo, so it felt a little weird, but all the timings are right. This is what my games against bio terrans usually look like, except I just 1g expand. If you have any questions about anything just ask. Thank you for your input. There's a few things i'd like to say/ask. Firstly, I open 1g robo as I believe widow mines can come way too quickly for me to deal with if I go 1gate expand. I notice at 10:00 you have 4 zealots and 4 sentries at your front, 4 stalkers and your MSC at your main mineral line, +1 is still just out of being completed - How would you go about dealing with the usual 10minute push with this many units? I would expect to get stomped when a 2 dozen marine/marauder come charging into my main with 2 vacs backing them up. I would also like to ask, are you meant to pass 16workers per expansion or are you doing this to make taking the 3rd quicker as no pressure is coming (of course AI). Blink > Charge at 11:15 - is this standard? Should I not worry about Charge as I have Forcefields (And time warp if I don't just let my MSC die)? Thanks again. Edit: I'm going to bed so I will speak to you in a few hours. Hopefully be up to watch HuK play in MLG.
The point of getting the 3 gateways at 9 minutes is to stop that push. When you see it move out, you dump all chrono onto your gateways and get 2-3 zealot warpins before then. Traditionally you would have a cannon or two at the front to stop that push in a double forge build, but since you can use the planetary nexus thing it works just the same. As for passing the 16 per expo, it's just kind of a habit and I want some to transfer over. The blink over charge is crucial for defending drops across 3 bases. You want charge done in time for your big push with 3-3, it's not necessary so early to defend with, and it likely won't be that beneficial as you won't have too many zealots that early. On top of that, you do have the forcefields and time warp, yeah.
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On March 16 2013 00:40 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 00:33 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 23:53 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 23:02 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 22:55 Salv wrote:On March 15 2013 22:40 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 08:43 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:29 Kyoshi wrote:On March 15 2013 08:11 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 08:05 Kyoshi wrote:
[quote]
Okay thank you for the reference. Looks like i've been doing a similar build but more on the fly.
I would also like to ask about PvP.
Most of my games have opened up Pheonix vs Pheonix or some sort of oracle play with the occassional 4gate.
However, DT's are a problem as going Robo isn't viable to open with anymore I was wondering how to counter DTs. (Sometimes I go for them too and just win straight up)
Is it the oracle that has detection or MSC? I realise there was another form of detection that isn't an observer or cannon but I haven't found it yet.
Also, just like WoL I'm struggling against Terrans who split there army (2 Medivac drops, Push at front with 2 Medivacs, bio and a couple of vikings). I'm not confident with my PvT all-ins so I'm yet to try oracles/stalker/zealot/MSC all-in. Has anyone found any HT FE builds that might be able to shut down drops a bit better with charge/storm/MSC. (MSC for the Time Warp and easy storms)
It's the oracle that detects, so I'd imagine SG players would FF their ramp until the oracle gets back to detect, or until you get some detection out from a robo or forge. There's an older Sase stargate > robo build floating around that would probably handle DT's just fine if you're dead set on opening SG every pvp. As for your PvT, post a replay. As far as I know the most common HT first builds have always been the 3 - 4 gate aggression into fast third builds that got popular a few months ago, not sure if they're still played though. I will note that with widow mines coming out so fast, it's probably not a good idea to start going HT first, as you'll have a lot more build order losses. Still, definitely post me some of your PvT losses. Thanks for your input once again. I'm currently at school and won't be home for a while. When I do however I'll collect some of my losses vs terran and maybe play a few more to try and find the problem myself. I know one of my games I may have taken a greedy 3rd without any pressure so the terran was able to out unit me and with bad MSC micro I stand no chance. I'm so used to being able to get an early 3rd with a couple of colussus, poking at 2/3 colussus then falling back to double forge/3rd base and HT Tech. Is the "R" Keybinding the detection on the Oracle? Thanks again. As a general rule for PvT, I never take a third unless I can confirm that the terran intends to take his, it's just so risky. I really like double forge in general though, but the thing with double forge builds is that your whole game is building up to the maxed attack you make at 3-3. I wouldn't so much play a back and forth game with double forge builds. No idea what the keybind is for detecting with oracles, though. Just played a game where I got trashed so bad by a terran who simply, just out macro'd me. Not sure where I can improve/hit a timing so I don't run into this sort of crazy stompfest by the terran. I had some miscontrol in the final engage but I was so far behind tbh, I don't think it would have matter much. http://drop.sc/310488Thanks and I hope you hear your feedback. If you have skype, we might be able to continue this conversation on there. PM me your skype name and I'll add you. You didn't have any map vision for the whole game, so you couldn't tell what he was doing / not doing. When you can see what he's doing, it's easier to see where you can cut corners or take advantage. For example, if you had seen the size of his army and saw no third base from him, you could have known that there was no way you could hold a third, so you could have massed up a bit more and done so later, saved yourself 400 minerals. Losing mining time and eight probes early in the game (the widow mines) hurt you a lot. You didn't see it coming and that cost you. Sending a probe out earlier to confirm that your opponent walled should make you alter your build a bit. You went 1 gateway / 1 assim, which is a 1 gate expansion build, but you wound up floating 800/200(300?) before deciding to build a robo and then a nexus, so it's as if you just took the risk of an FE without altering your build according to what you saw. I would have added a second gas, added a robo, second gateway, then expanded - without banking the minerals and gas, that maybe would have allowed you to see the drop sooner, and if you see a wall at your opponents ramp you should probably stay home with your stalkers. One tip I can give is that it take 3 stalkers and an observer in your mineral line to stop a widow mine drop without moving your probes. Your stalkers will kill it just after it burrows, before it can fire a shot. With two widow mines, you have to pull your probes and then take them out, which should net you a bit of an earlier expansion with no losses except mining time. Other than that, his advantage just really snowballed from the first 8 probe kills and then him being able to do whatever he wanted and you not reacting. After he gets ahead he's probably comfortable taking whatever greedy risks he'd like, and without you being able to spot it and either punish or match that, he's going to roll you in battle. Thanks for your feedback. This was a sloppy game but I don't fully believe it was a "map vision" loss. I saw the expansion when i peaked up the ramp and expected Widowmines to be delayed... which they weren't really. The fact that he can out supply me by 70 because of 8 probes seems a bit dumb to me. I cut corners by doing a 1Gate FE and still lost every bit economically. I seem to get trashed by almost every terran. Any current meta builds rather than what I'm doing now? http://drop.sc/310494Try that out, it's a passable 1g robo expo. I never do that build, I just 1g expo, so it felt a little weird, but all the timings are right. This is what my games against bio terrans usually look like, except I just 1g expand. If you have any questions about anything just ask. Thank you for your input. There's a few things i'd like to say/ask. Firstly, I open 1g robo as I believe widow mines can come way too quickly for me to deal with if I go 1gate expand. I notice at 10:00 you have 4 zealots and 4 sentries at your front, 4 stalkers and your MSC at your main mineral line, +1 is still just out of being completed - How would you go about dealing with the usual 10minute push with this many units? I would expect to get stomped when a 2 dozen marine/marauder come charging into my main with 2 vacs backing them up. I would also like to ask, are you meant to pass 16workers per expansion or are you doing this to make taking the 3rd quicker as no pressure is coming (of course AI). Blink > Charge at 11:15 - is this standard? Should I not worry about Charge as I have Forcefields (And time warp if I don't just let my MSC die)? Thanks again. Edit: I'm going to bed so I will speak to you in a few hours. Hopefully be up to watch HuK play in MLG. The point of getting the 3 gateways at 9 minutes is to stop that push. When you see it move out, you dump all chrono onto your gateways and get 2-3 zealot warpins before then. Traditionally you would have a cannon or two at the front to stop that push in a double forge build, but since you can use the planetary nexus thing it works just the same. As for passing the 16 per expo, it's just kind of a habit and I want some to transfer over. The blink over charge is crucial for defending drops across 3 bases. You want charge done in time for your big push with 3-3, it's not necessary so early to defend with, and it likely won't be that beneficial as you won't have too many zealots that early. On top of that, you do have the forcefields and time warp, yeah.
Edit: How you split your units to defend that push is crucial. Usually the way I had them split is fine, but sometimes if there's a dedicated doom drop in the main you have to warp in there, but with the planetary nexus at 13 range I've not had a lot of issues out of multi-pronged aggression.
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I have 13% win rate against zerg. I thought I'd figure something out, but I think I need help.
I don't think it's build order related, I think I just don't understand zerg. Last time I played a lot was before master league was introduced. Back then I thought of PvZ as the following:
Pressure means less drones, which means I'll gain the lead in economy.
If they get to stabalize, I will have to defend until a deathball.
Right now this logic doesn't work for me, because I feel that:
-when I move out with a ground army, it will get crushed.
-when I try to harass with air, there's 2 spores at each base. Is this too predictable?
-when I try to take a third quickly (10-14min), it gets taken out without exception
-when I wait for longer, they have too many bases for a deathball to matter.
I don't need a build order, I feel. I need some understanding of zerg. I'll ask a few questions, I'd appreciate answers!
Is there anything wrong with the findings I had above?
When can I pressure zerg?
When can I expand?
When zerg gets their mutalisk ''ball'', how do you defend your bases? Storm? Stalkers and phoenix seem irrelevant when they get their numbers. I have not gotten to try storm yet.
Probably not easy to answer, but I'm desprate. I just don't understand anymore.
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Canada13389 Posts
On March 16 2013 00:59 Gidded wrote:
I have 13% win rate against zerg. I thought I'd figure something out, but I think I need help.
I don't think it's build order related, I think I just don't understand zerg. Last time I played a lot was before master league was introduced. Back then I thought of PvZ as the following:
Pressure means less drones, which means I'll gain the lead in economy.
If they get to stabalize, I will have to defend until a deathball.
Right now this logic doesn't work for me, because I feel that:
-when I move out with a ground army, it will get crushed.
-when I try to harass with air, there's 2 spores at each base. Is this too predictable?
-when I try to take a third quickly (10-14min), it gets taken out without exception
-when I wait for longer, they have too many bases for a deathball to matter.
I don't need a build order, I feel. I need some understanding of zerg. I'll ask a few questions, I'd appreciate answers!
Is there anything wrong with the findings I had above?
When can I pressure zerg?
When can I expand?
When zerg gets their mutalisk ''ball'', how do you defend your bases? Storm? Stalkers and phoenix seem irrelevant when they get their numbers. I have not gotten to try storm yet.
Probably not easy to answer, but I'm desprate. I just don't understand anymore.
Try to post a replay. Also, keep in mind that taking a third at 10 ish minutes is pretty standard now and 14 is way way way too late.
And currently hots phoenix are amazing vs mutas when microed right, especially once you get the range upgrade. Void ray openings out of Stargate are really uncommon due to their difficulty in navigating and microing against static defense when zerg opens 3 hatch.
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Try to post a replay. Also, keep in mind that taking a third at 10 ish minutes is pretty standard now and 14 is way way way too late.
And currently hots phoenix are amazing vs mutas when microed right, especially once you get the range upgrade. Void ray openings out of Stargate are really uncommon due to their difficulty in navigating and microing against static defense when zerg opens 3 hatch.
I'm looking for advice on higher play. My macro is too bad right now to get any proper advice for my own games, so a replay wouldn't help a lot for what I'm looking for.
I want to understand the matchup.
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On March 16 2013 00:59 Gidded wrote:
I have 13% win rate against zerg. I thought I'd figure something out, but I think I need help.
I don't think it's build order related, I think I just don't understand zerg. Last time I played a lot was before master league was introduced. Back then I thought of PvZ as the following:
Pressure means less drones, which means I'll gain the lead in economy.
If they get to stabalize, I will have to defend until a deathball.
Right now this logic doesn't work for me, because I feel that:
-when I move out with a ground army, it will get crushed.
-when I try to harass with air, there's 2 spores at each base. Is this too predictable?
-when I try to take a third quickly (10-14min), it gets taken out without exception
-when I wait for longer, they have too many bases for a deathball to matter.
I don't need a build order, I feel. I need some understanding of zerg. I'll ask a few questions, I'd appreciate answers!
Is there anything wrong with the findings I had above?
When can I pressure zerg?
When can I expand?
When zerg gets their mutalisk ''ball'', how do you defend your bases? Storm? Stalkers and phoenix seem irrelevant when they get their numbers. I have not gotten to try storm yet.
Probably not easy to answer, but I'm desprate. I just don't understand anymore.
In WoL I had a 75% winrate in PvZ in high diamond and I must admit: PvZ is just completely different now.
You can take 3rd bases much earlier. Even in WoL I built my 3rd base around 8-10 minutes, but now it is even more standard because of the defensive abilities of the MSC.
You can pressure the Zerg with Phoenixes (ignore 1-2 spores and lift some drones or even queens, try to micro them properly), with 1-2 Oracles and Phoenixes after that, with the much cheaper Dark Shrine etc.
There are many options to pressure Zerg now, but you should hide your tech as long as possible.
Mutalisks are insanely strong atm. You have to build a Phoenix army out of 2-3 Stargates, otherwise it is difficult to beat this ball.
Another important aspect is scouting. In WoL I played PvZ pretty much blindly, you can't do that anymore. With hallucinated Phoenixes or your Stargate tech you have to look after every possible tech switch. Zerg can do a lot of them now.
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Canada13389 Posts
On March 16 2013 01:12 Gidded wrote:Show nested quote +Try to post a replay. Also, keep in mind that taking a third at 10 ish minutes is pretty standard now and 14 is way way way too late.
And currently hots phoenix are amazing vs mutas when microed right, especially once you get the range upgrade. Void ray openings out of Stargate are really uncommon due to their difficulty in navigating and microing against static defense when zerg opens 3 hatch. I'm looking for advice on higher play. My macro is too bad right now to get any proper advice for my own games, so a replay wouldn't help a lot for what I'm looking for. I want to understand the matchup.
I suggest you read the big WoL PvZ guide. It will give a strong baseline understanding of PvZ from which you can begin to learn about HotS PvZ. The new matchups aren't all mapped out too too well and right now basic mechanics and decision making are what is winning games. If you provide a replay we can offer advice for what aspects of your mechanics and decision making should be focused on first.
If you are below diamond then a replay is even more useful and understanding less so. The meta game decision tree isn't very fleshed out. We can make decisions as players based on experience or experimentation and these responses might not be optimal and they could be wrong in HotS as it is now.
If you are losing to mutas when opening Stargate it could be the fact you scouted late, ran out of gas, or simply supply blocks. If it is supply blocks, no number of stargates can help you in getting a proper phoenix count.
If it is failing to recognise mass mutas based on what you scout we can fix that easily but need a replay to recommend scouting patterns or flaws in your scouting.
Also, if your macro is so poor you don't want to post a replay to learn from, then there isn't much we can help you with. I've won PvZs in beta where I lost 40 probes to mutas and took a third at the 15 minute mark. All because the opponent's macro and transitions were poor.
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What were people using for a PvP opening in HotS? I used to rely on the 3 stalker opening a lot when I played in WoL, but I am lost as to how to open safely in HotS and use the mothership core.
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Thank you for the responses. They've helped, and I might post a replay if I still need help in a week or so, when my macro is back up to where it used to be. If the HotS metagame is so unmapped that no one knows what to do it was silly of me to ask. I'll go read that WoL thread and see what I get out of it. Thanks.
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On March 16 2013 01:44 Plansix wrote:
What were people using for a PvP opening in HotS? I used to rely on the 3 stalker opening a lot when I played in WoL, but I am lost as to how to open safely in HotS and use the mothership core.
3 Stalker + Mothership Core 
A lot of pros go for that opening, you only Chrono the Nexus three times and put the rest of the CB in Warpgate research.
9 Pylon
13 Gate
14/15 Gas
15/16 Pylon
18 Cybernetic
19 Gas
20 Gate
Stalker -> +2 Stalker -> Mothership Core
From here you can either keep adding some Probes or throw down an additional Gate
I like to go for the tech choice, still you hit incredibly early with 5 Stalkers and the Mothership Core, enough to destroy almost every Sentry based defense. Both Stargate and Robo have ups and downs but I like to get Stargate and an Oracle for detection/harass while his units are defending his base.
The key is that you hit before Tech/an Expansion kicks in, meaning you will trade cost efficient up until then and kill some builds.
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I've started just opening phoenix against zerg. It's still very good, and I've found that it dissuades them from going muta, which is the hardest thing for me to defend consistently right now.
On another note, has anyone noticed that protoss has *a lot* of activated abilities that all need to be used at about the same time? I'm having a hard time using them all at once even with multiple hotkeys.
Forcefield, guardian shield, time warp, storm, prismatic alignment, graviton beam, blink...I just find I wind up miscontrolling something when I try to do them all. By comparison, the other races don't seem to have nearly as many. Not a balance whine, just wondering how I should go about improving that aspect of my play. Was a masters protoss in WoL, haven't started ranked games yet in HoTS.
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On March 15 2013 15:10 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 14:02 polysciguy wrote:
im curious i know it was possible to FFE vs terran in WoL, is it still a viable opening? I'd say probably not, with the resurgence of reaper play, and the idea of fast WM drops both coming out in time to do serious damage or end the game.
yeah but my understanding is that reaper play is more of a tvt thing, and while WM can do some serious damage, wtih a ffe, you have the time and money to put a single cannon in the mineral line early, but then again im not even ranked yet so maybe thats just my whimsy talking.
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On March 16 2013 04:02 polysciguy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 15:10 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 14:02 polysciguy wrote:
im curious i know it was possible to FFE vs terran in WoL, is it still a viable opening? I'd say probably not, with the resurgence of reaper play, and the idea of fast WM drops both coming out in time to do serious damage or end the game. yeah but my understanding is that reaper play is more of a tvt thing, and while WM can do some serious damage, wtih a ffe, you have the time and money to put a single cannon in the mineral line early, but then again im not even ranked yet so maybe thats just my whimsy talking.
1 gate expo is still a very viable opening. it is still the best opener in my opinion. if you play it right, you should be able to defend anything. they key is dont be overly greedy. when you 1 gate expo, you add 2nd and 3rd when wg gate is just before halfway done. this build can defend anything except marine scv all in, proxy maurader, terran cheese.
if you tech before your economy kicks in however, then you'll die. this including robo, stargate, and depending on how early, even a forge.
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PvZ - When to start getting air upgrades if you start with FFE -> SG/Phoenix & 4 Gates, since you're eventually transitioning possibly to colossi/VR or just complete airtoss?
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Yeah I'm at a complete loss in PvZ now that zerg have figured out they have new units. Are we really going back into being pidgeon holed into FFE for another few years?
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On March 16 2013 04:56 ThaReckoning wrote:
Yeah I'm at a complete loss in PvZ now that zerg have figured out they have new units. Are we really going back into being pidgeon holed into FFE for another few years?
Watch Nony's stream. He goes gate-expand everytime vs. Z, and seems to have a ridiculous win % so far.
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On March 16 2013 04:53 qapuk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 04:02 polysciguy wrote:On March 15 2013 15:10 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 14:02 polysciguy wrote:
im curious i know it was possible to FFE vs terran in WoL, is it still a viable opening? I'd say probably not, with the resurgence of reaper play, and the idea of fast WM drops both coming out in time to do serious damage or end the game. yeah but my understanding is that reaper play is more of a tvt thing, and while WM can do some serious damage, wtih a ffe, you have the time and money to put a single cannon in the mineral line early, but then again im not even ranked yet so maybe thats just my whimsy talking. 1 gate expo is still a very viable opening. it is still the best opener in my opinion. if you play it right, you should be able to defend anything. they key is dont be overly greedy. when you 1 gate expo, you add 2nd and 3rd when wg gate is just before halfway done. this build can defend anything except marine scv all in, proxy maurader, terran cheese. if you tech before your economy kicks in however, then you'll die. this including robo, stargate, and depending on how early, even a forge.
i was asking about a FFE, not a 1gate expo
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On March 16 2013 05:04 polysciguy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 04:53 qapuk wrote:On March 16 2013 04:02 polysciguy wrote:On March 15 2013 15:10 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 15 2013 14:02 polysciguy wrote:
im curious i know it was possible to FFE vs terran in WoL, is it still a viable opening? I'd say probably not, with the resurgence of reaper play, and the idea of fast WM drops both coming out in time to do serious damage or end the game. yeah but my understanding is that reaper play is more of a tvt thing, and while WM can do some serious damage, wtih a ffe, you have the time and money to put a single cannon in the mineral line early, but then again im not even ranked yet so maybe thats just my whimsy talking. 1 gate expo is still a very viable opening. it is still the best opener in my opinion. if you play it right, you should be able to defend anything. they key is dont be overly greedy. when you 1 gate expo, you add 2nd and 3rd when wg gate is just before halfway done. this build can defend anything except marine scv all in, proxy maurader, terran cheese. if you tech before your economy kicks in however, then you'll die. this including robo, stargate, and depending on how early, even a forge. i was asking about a FFE, not a 1gate expo
o im sorry i misread that. then i would have to withdraw my answer because I never do forge expo pvt. it just doesnt make sense to me with all the helions runbys, drop helions, fast medivac, speed reaper, drop widow mine, cloak banshee, fast banshee etc. Even in WOL it was only good vs the standard gasless expo meta game, not general ladder.
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Can someone give me some tips on how to improve based on this game? I was trying out a safe Gate/Robo/Gate expand and eventually just got owned by a 2 base Thor/Hellbat/Banshee/Raven all-in. I think a lot of it was due to indecision and poor decision making on my part, but I'd love any input people could give me.
http://drop.sc/310544
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EPT
