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On March 16 2013 11:19 sYz-Adrenaline wrote:
So I just ran into a build (PvP) and I have no idea how to stop it. 4gate MSC blink all-in...
Maybe dt?
or going blink and not expanding myself? DT would be the hard counter to that build but you would risk dying to other builds if you misread. I have faced that build a few times. I usually open twilight council but if I see them favouring stalkers and not getting other gateway units I rush DTs. It seems to work a fair amount but it is as it appears, a complete coinflip. That is fine with me because I don't particularly like lategame PvP.
So I actually gave Protoss air a go against zerg. I had been avoiding using this strategy but this zerg I was playing was being so stupidly passive (he tried to do some really stupid muta/corruptor build but I shut it down hard with cannons) that I kinda felt he deserved it. He let me get to 3/3 air upgrades uncontested. With two storms and mass voidray/carrier/tempest I killed a pure 3/3 corruptor army. My question is, are zergs playing too passive against this style? I felt like there were many occasions where I would have outright died if he attacked with something like a hydra/roach army but he never did.
Also, wouldn't Zergs opening mutas be shooting themselves in the foot since the response is dropping down extra stargates, which makes the air transition even easier to make later on?
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Is 4 gate still viable in HotS?
As a Protoss, when should I be scouting and what should I be looking for?
Can anyone recommend some HotS-viable 1 or 2 base all ins/timing attacks?
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On March 16 2013 12:53 Tritone wrote:
Is 4 gate still viable in HotS?
As a Protoss, when should I be scouting and what should I be looking for?
Can anyone recommend some HotS-viable 1 or 2 base all ins/timing attacks?
No high ground warp in and ms core make 4 gate pretty non-viable in hots. However 3 gate allins, which hit faster and can place pylons on high ground of opponent's base more easily, tend to be pretty strong still. Moreso now since most people are playing fairly greedily thanks to the safety ms core gives. *edit* this applies only to pvp. I wouldn't necessarily suggest a 4 gate or 3 gate allin in pvz or pvt at all.
For scouting you're gonna have to be more specific, what matchup are you talking about? All of them? Do you want just general info or is there something specific you're struggling with?
For 1/2 base allins: PvP: 10 gate 3 gate allin, 4 gate blink w/ ms core allin both are fairly decent. PvT: 3 gate stargate oracle and 3 gate stargate void allins are both quite strong, myself and a friend have both had a bit of success with a 1 gate dt FE into fast 7 gate blink allin. PvZ: +1 4 gate pressure(off a 1 gate FE) into +2 7 gate blink is pretty good still, 8 gate allin might work? haven't tested or tried that at all yet though, and immortal/sentry allin still seems to be reasonably viable, although swarm hosts can pose a small problem. Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
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Can anyone recommend some HotS-viable 1 or 2 base all ins/timing attacks?
In PvT I have a lot of success with 3 gate Oracle/Void Ray off 1 base. Especially against an expanding Terran.
Ironically, in PvZ I win a lot with 7 Gate +2 Blink. I just think it's because of the current metagame in HotS PvZ, that all-in was pretty weak in WoL.
In PvP I like to play DTs off a proxy Dark Shrine with 4 Gates. If he has detection, I try to bust him with a Chargelot/Archon all-in.
I'm pretty sure there are other all-ins, but I like these all-ins at the moment.
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So I ran into a build in PvT on ladder quite often that has me very frustrated. They proxy a factory then land in a corner of my base. Basically if I can't get in his base with a probe scout I have no idea this is coming and it seems ridiculous to stop. Here is an excellent TL post by Bronzeknee (GM with Protoss) that describes the build:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384139¤tpage=2#29
This build seems even worse now that the MSC doesn't have any detection abilities. Has anyone ran into this build and have any suggestions?
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Thanks for the replies.
On March 16 2013 13:12 Chylith wrote:
However 3 gate allins, which hit faster and can place pylons on high ground of opponent's base more easily, tend to be pretty strong still. Moreso now since most people are playing fairly greedily thanks to the safety ms core gives. *edit* this applies only to pvp. I wouldn't necessarily suggest a 4 gate or 3 gate allin in pvz or pvt at all.
Thanks. The BO I have for 10 gate 3 gate is:
9 pylon
10 gate
11 probe (CB)
13 probe (CB)
14 gas
15 CC
16 zealot, pylon
18 zealot
Probe to 18 probes (14 minerals, 3 gas, 1 proxy)
CB Warp Gate x3
22 Stalker (CB)
24 +2 gates (when Warp Gate is halfway done)
24 Proxy pylon
Stalker (CB)
Warp in 3 stalkers, get up in his face
32 pylon
Place another pylon below his ramp
Any of that need to be changed for HotS?
For scouting you're gonna have to be more specific, what matchup are you talking about? All of them? Do you want just general info or is there something specific you're struggling with?
I mean in general. I am bronze and terrible, the only way I usually scout is send in a probe, make sure I'm not getting 6 pool'd or 4 gated, then pull the probe out to the natural to check expansion timing.
For 1/2 base allins: PvP: 10 gate 3 gate allin, 4 gate blink w/ ms core allin both are fairly decent. PvT: 3 gate stargate oracle and 3 gate stargate void allins are both quite strong, myself and a friend have both had a bit of success with a 1 gate dt FE into fast 7 gate blink allin. PvZ: +1 4 gate pressure(off a 1 gate FE) into +2 7 gate blink is pretty good still, 8 gate allin might work? haven't tested or tried that at all yet though, and immortal/sentry allin still seems to be reasonably viable, although swarm hosts can pose a small problem. Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Thanks. I haven't seen any exact build orders for these in HotS but I'll keep my eyes open. I'm especially interested in the oracle/void ray all ins vs Terran.
I think to improve, I just wanna pick a few builds, a mix of all ins and macro stuff, and practice until I can execute them really well. But it's hard to find specific build orders for HotS.
On March 16 2013 13:14 Bahajinbo wrote:
In PvT I have a lot of success with 3 gate Oracle/Void Ray off 1 base. Especially against an expanding Terran.
Ironically, in PvZ I win a lot with 7 Gate +2 Blink. I just think it's because of the current metagame in HotS PvZ, that all-in was pretty weak in WoL.
Thanks. Another reference to the 3 gate oracle/void ray all in. Like this? http://www.gosubuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvt/pvt-3-gate-proxy-oracle-all-in/
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In PvP, Void Rays seem to be the new thing. They've eclipsed Colossi, and it seems they eradicate Stalkers. So, why aren't we seeing 1-base Void Ray all-ins all the time? Do they need some support units or critical mass or something, or is one of my assumptions wrong?
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VoidRays cos so much right now and 3 supply you can't have a lot of ground units with them if you're only on 1base, however an all in with voidray on 2 bases can be very very strong
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On March 16 2013 10:11 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 10:02 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 16 2013 06:45 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 16 2013 05:45 Xaeldaren wrote:Can someone give me some tips on how to improve based on this game? I was trying out a safe Gate/Robo/Gate expand and eventually just got owned by a 2 base Thor/Hellbat/Banshee/Raven all-in. I think a lot of it was due to indecision and poor decision making on my part, but I'd love any input people could give me. http://drop.sc/310544 Honestly when I send an observer into a terran base and see stuff like that, I abandon the ground game completely. Most of the time I cancel one of my forges, and get chargelot/archon/dt while I run screaming toward skytoss. The first few trades you make will be something like chargelot/immortal/archon/void/ht adding more stargates as you get a third and 4th. Eventually you just get mass void/tempest/phoenix and roll him over that way, phasing out the ground game completely. Mineral dump is cannons, and keep his base count in check with constant DT/zealot counterattacks from the 4-5 gates you have. If you let it get off the ground you're in trouble, so play really safe against that kind of stuff. Well I'd like to take this back. This idea used to work in WoL, but that was before widow mines. You can't even engage mech with an air army anymore, so this is another issue I have to figure out. All these new t/z units don't seem to have any counters that I can think of, it's really disheartening. Yeah, it's bothersome. I guess all-ins every single game are the only way to play. Maybe Immortal/Sentry + MSC for time bomb vs. Zerg, and 4 gate robo immortal bust with an observer vs Terran?
He can always GG rape you with teleportvac mine drops, if he stops or while he is holding your rush.
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On March 16 2013 18:54 BaDMannerS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 10:11 Salient wrote:On March 16 2013 10:02 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 16 2013 06:45 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 16 2013 05:45 Xaeldaren wrote:Can someone give me some tips on how to improve based on this game? I was trying out a safe Gate/Robo/Gate expand and eventually just got owned by a 2 base Thor/Hellbat/Banshee/Raven all-in. I think a lot of it was due to indecision and poor decision making on my part, but I'd love any input people could give me. http://drop.sc/310544 Honestly when I send an observer into a terran base and see stuff like that, I abandon the ground game completely. Most of the time I cancel one of my forges, and get chargelot/archon/dt while I run screaming toward skytoss. The first few trades you make will be something like chargelot/immortal/archon/void/ht adding more stargates as you get a third and 4th. Eventually you just get mass void/tempest/phoenix and roll him over that way, phasing out the ground game completely. Mineral dump is cannons, and keep his base count in check with constant DT/zealot counterattacks from the 4-5 gates you have. If you let it get off the ground you're in trouble, so play really safe against that kind of stuff. Well I'd like to take this back. This idea used to work in WoL, but that was before widow mines. You can't even engage mech with an air army anymore, so this is another issue I have to figure out. All these new t/z units don't seem to have any counters that I can think of, it's really disheartening. Yeah, it's bothersome. I guess all-ins every single game are the only way to play. Maybe Immortal/Sentry + MSC for time bomb vs. Zerg, and 4 gate robo immortal bust with an observer vs Terran? He can always GG rape you with teleportvac mine drops, if he stops or while he is holding your rush.
It's an all in. Of course you lose if it doesn't work. But think of it this way, Hister's immortal all in worked in Master's League in WoL. It should be even stronger now with the MsC for time bomb. It gives you a chance to win before imbavacs. Note that the build already incorporates a forge and cannon for base defense and detection. See http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264470
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On March 16 2013 16:34 Ldawg wrote:So I ran into a build in PvT on ladder quite often that has me very frustrated. They proxy a factory then land in a corner of my base. Basically if I can't get in his base with a probe scout I have no idea this is coming and it seems ridiculous to stop. Here is an excellent TL post by Bronzeknee (GM with Protoss) that describes the build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384139¤tpage=2#29This build seems even worse now that the MSC doesn't have any detection abilities. Has anyone ran into this build and have any suggestions?
i dont think there's an answer until blizzard changes something. I ran into a proxy widow mine build but he was rallying marauders from a 2nd rax that i couldnt scout because of the full wall. He just walks into my natural and places mines while pressuring my ramp. Even after getting the robo out, it took a while to fend off his marauders and the three mines he had placed in my natural. By the time i placed my nexus down, he already expanded so I was pretty behind in economy and since robo/colossus tech is so gas dependent i was pretty much screwed from that point.
I dont have issues with aggressive options this early in the game. I dont have an issue with the mines themselves but I think they come out way too fast, and it takes so much gas to get out the necessary detection to deal with this. They are more threatening than cloak banshees imo.
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On March 16 2013 16:34 Ldawg wrote:So I ran into a build in PvT on ladder quite often that has me very frustrated. They proxy a factory then land in a corner of my base. Basically if I can't get in his base with a probe scout I have no idea this is coming and it seems ridiculous to stop. Here is an excellent TL post by Bronzeknee (GM with Protoss) that describes the build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384139¤tpage=2#29This build seems even worse now that the MSC doesn't have any detection abilities. Has anyone ran into this build and have any suggestions?
although right now there's no perfect solution cause it's only one strategy, if you want to avoid it happening, after your 2nd pylon begin spreading them to corners of your base. also, you can have first zealot out patrolling hidden corners of your base.
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On March 16 2013 19:06 Salient wrote:It's an all in. Of course you lose if it doesn't work. But think of it this way, Hister's immortal all in worked in Master's League in WoL. It should be even stronger now with the MsC for time bomb. It gives you a chance to win before imbavacs. Note that the build already incorporates a forge and cannon for base defense and detection. See http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264470
Thanks, I will implement it, when I have the time until they change something about the meta and the balance.
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On March 14 2013 09:39 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 09:13 Pibacc wrote:
twice i've lost to a zerg putting a hatch in my natural or main base. what in the fuck how do you stop this when you're trying to forge FE? Assuming you scout it right away and its in your main base pull 4-5 probes and just let them target it down. If the zerg builds it to block you natural just start teching up with cannon/cannon/gate/gas/core. The two cannons are more then enough to take it down if you build them as soon as the forge finishes. Avoid building cannons against a hatch in your main, occasionally players just cancel the hatch and build it somewhere else, which leaves you in a awkward position if you try to stop it with cannons. Just pull probes and chrono out zealot.
You build a pylon near it, and start cannons when the hatch is about 60 percent done.
I think this method saves you more money than having 5 probes not working.
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On March 14 2013 09:56 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 09:43 kollin wrote:On March 14 2013 09:39 jcroisdale wrote:On March 14 2013 09:13 Pibacc wrote:
twice i've lost to a zerg putting a hatch in my natural or main base. what in the fuck how do you stop this when you're trying to forge FE? Assuming you scout it right away and its in your main base pull 4-5 probes and just let them target it down. If the zerg builds it to block you natural just start teching up with cannon/cannon/gate/gas/core. The two cannons are more then enough to take it down if you build them as soon as the forge finishes. Avoid building cannons against a hatch in your main, occasionally players just cancel the hatch and build it somewhere else, which leaves you in a awkward position if you try to stop it with cannons. Just pull probes and chrono out zealot. Killing it with probes is a lot worse than building cannons and forcing him to cancel the hatchery, delaying it enough for you to get out a zealot. Each probe mines 40 minerals a minute, and of course have pathetic dps, so if you of pull 4-5 probes you will probably lose 400+ minerals. I understand the loss of mining time when pulling the probes, but if the hatch gets up and he has time to build anything besides a set of lings or two im screwed. The probes are there to start damaging the hatch so the zealot can finish it off without the hatch finishing. If the probes cost me 400 minerals, that is the cost of the 1 pylon and two cannons you are going to be building in order to cancel/kill the hatch. The problem here is if he lets them get close to finishing then cancels the hatch and buildings it out of range of the cannons. Now we have to cancel them, build a new pylon in range and build cannons once again. Now we can get in a situation where he loses 150 minerals for two hatch cancels. While I have two extra pylons in my main 1-2 cannon cancels and two cannons built in a fairly useless place in my main.
You should build the cannons anyway with possibility of cancel. Even if you lose 160 minerals every time vs his 75 each cancelled hatch, it's still more economical than 5 probe pull.
To combat him building roaches or lings right away you can pull your probes to surround the units while your cannons pick them off.
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On March 14 2013 11:00 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 10:02 kollin wrote:On March 14 2013 09:56 jcroisdale wrote:On March 14 2013 09:43 kollin wrote:On March 14 2013 09:39 jcroisdale wrote:On March 14 2013 09:13 Pibacc wrote:
twice i've lost to a zerg putting a hatch in my natural or main base. what in the fuck how do you stop this when you're trying to forge FE? Assuming you scout it right away and its in your main base pull 4-5 probes and just let them target it down. If the zerg builds it to block you natural just start teching up with cannon/cannon/gate/gas/core. The two cannons are more then enough to take it down if you build them as soon as the forge finishes. Avoid building cannons against a hatch in your main, occasionally players just cancel the hatch and build it somewhere else, which leaves you in a awkward position if you try to stop it with cannons. Just pull probes and chrono out zealot. Killing it with probes is a lot worse than building cannons and forcing him to cancel the hatchery, delaying it enough for you to get out a zealot. Each probe mines 40 minerals a minute, and of course have pathetic dps, so if you of pull 4-5 probes you will probably lose 400+ minerals. I understand the loss of mining time when pulling the probes, but if the hatch gets up and he has time to build anything besides a set of lings or two im screwed. The probes are there to start damaging the hatch so the zealot can finish it off without the hatch finishing. If the probes cost me 400 minerals, that is the cost of the 1 pylon and two cannons you are going to be building in order to cancel/kill the hatch. The problem here is if he lets them get close to finishing then cancels the hatch and buildings it out of range of the cannons. Now we have to cancel them, build a new pylon in range and build cannons once again. Now we can get in a situation where he loses 150 minerals for two hatch cancels. While I have two extra pylons in my main 1-2 cannon cancels and two cannons built in a fairly useless place in my main. However his hatchery is severely delayed, and the entire point of his build is stopped. Then, now he has no economy, you go up to 7 gateways and win with a zealot MSC all in. If you pull probes and you don't end up getting the hatch low, or he cancels the hatch, you are put a lot further behind than if you had built pylons (which are useful throughout the game) and cannons (not necessarily useless throughout the game). The follow up to stopping an in base hatch is not really relevant to the discussion. The real argument is if pulling 4-5 probes is better then building cannons to stop a proxy hatch in my main base. This was something I struggled with awhile back when if first became popular on ladder. Some of the people / resources I used to figure this out all lead me to believe that pulling probes was better then building cannons. One thing to consider is mining time is lost linearly, it slowly builds up to those 400 minerals. While building pylons and cannons require the money right away. You are taking roughly an equal hit to economy, but with cannons you need all the money up front. I understand the idea that the pylons and cannons are not actually useless, but if were in a game with less then 20 supply and have wasted 300 more minerals then the opponent, effectively we are very far behind. Also consider that the cannons offer no support at the front of your base. If the zergs intent was to go for a few roaches off the proxy he is going to still build those roaches and send them to your front. By pulling probes you get an earlier nexus and tech, which should help with any pressure/ all in.
If you time it right you don't have to lose 300 minerals every time in cannons to a hatch. You will lose 160 or so minerals for each hatch assuming he cancels and you cancel your cannons. Still better than losing 400 minerals attacking it with probes with the possibility of him cancelling and losing only 75.
You can surround his eggs with probes to lock his shit in while your cannons kill them. I think this is the best solution.
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On March 14 2013 14:39 megapants wrote:Hey guys, I played all of the beta as Terran and have little experience with the new HOTS units for Protoss; I've had too many MSC's die on me the last 2 days...Anyway, I have played like 10 PvPs since yesterday and have been having a hard time. Right now I'm going pretty fast Blink ~8:00 but I just did a game where I did 3 gate pressure and did a ton of damage but then lost all my units with bad control by going up a ramp. It seems that the timing window to get Blink upgraded is fucking gigantic (4 MINUTES once TC goes down) and has to be followed by pretty incredible Blink play (snipe colo/immo, get in the main, etc) to not be crazy behind on tech and economy. Any of you guys going Blink in the early game? What are you preferred openings? Or should I just scratch it and go for Robo or Stargate tech as my standard opener? I will add below some replays plus writeups, I appreciate any help I get, guys. Thanks a lot. + Show Spoiler [2 Gate Blink Expo vs Stargate - Daybreak] +http://drop.sc/310182This game goes extremely well for me in the early game. I scout my opponent's first Oracle and deny it from getting into position really early and then transition into double Stargate. I like this opening quite a lot but I'm not sure how it would fare against strong 1 base aggression like 3 gate Robo or 3 gate Voidray. I'd love to get some thoughts and critque on this build. http://drop.sc/310180Here I go for 2 gates and get Blink then a 3rd gate. I don't scout his Tech in time and get caught off guard by the immortals. he gets up my natural and kills off 3 of my Stalkers (8:30). I actually could have saved those Stalkers if I had just moved over to the cliff and Blinked up to my main (Blink finishes literally seconds after those stalkers die). However, I feel like it would have been a pretty difficult task to get out of my main and put any pressure back on my opponent. The only thing I think I could have really done to weaken this attack was to push much more aggressively and much earlier with my first 4-6 stalkers around 7 min and try and delay the push. Thoughts? How would you guys have approached this situation after the immortals made it to your ramp? http://drop.sc/310178This is the game in question. I think I would have won if I hadn't made the mistake of walking up his ramp, but like I said before, my Blink was crazy delayed. You think I would have been able to contain him, expand, and tech after doing such an aggressive opening (if I had hypothetically not lost those units up his ramp)? Would I have been better off going with the build in my previous replay? Please watch the replays and let me know what you think. Thanks, fellow Protoss.
Some general thoughts after watching some MLG vods (parting versus state)-It seems triple stalker opening with mothership core is the 'standard' now because:
It allows you to tech while having an aggressive presence on map. You can do serious hurt on someone skimping on units or mothership core if you yourself go MSC and 3 stalkers.
Because 3 stalker opening is so popular right now, you can do something like 2 gate, 2 zealot, 4-5 stalker with warpgate finishing at around 6:10. I think in the parting game he put 3 chrono boosts on stalkers. This will let you beat down a triple stalker opening maybe even laying down a pylon up his ramp as a result.
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Theoretically, can I just mass stalkers with near perfect macro and A move to win against all races till diamond ?
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On March 16 2013 23:52 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Theoretically, can I just mass stalkers with near perfect macro and A move to win against all races till diamond ?
No. That is a myth. It might work with marines, but they are much stronger than stalkers.
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On March 16 2013 12:53 Tritone wrote:
Is 4 gate still viable in HotS?
As a Protoss, when should I be scouting and what should I be looking for?
Can anyone recommend some HotS-viable 1 or 2 base all ins/timing attacks?
In some ways it's better, in some ways it's worse.
Pros
If you do it with a MSC you'll always have high ground vision so sometimes you can pick off one of the initial sentries. and make it up their ramp.
Build's aren't clean, there are a lot of un-4gate safe builds because people are trying to fit in their 100/100 MSC which makes their first sentry late a surprising amount of the time.
There are a lot of phoenix openings in the works which makes 4 gates harder to hold (along with SG opening in general because 150 gas extra can be brutal)
Cons
No high-ground warp hurts.
If they go for a super fast MSC and have the energy for a nexus cannon the rush is probably over.
Overall I think you'll get more wins than in WoL just because everyone is trying to do everything right now. People want a stargate and a MSC and that makes for some very 4-gate unsafe builds. That said you're still banking on your opponent doing an unsafe build.
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EPT
