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Given that a lot of protoss players have been using MC 1gFE for a long time, I guess the new MC build (that he featured in the match against MVP) could become a staple in the current metagame (and by metagame I mean widow mines everywhere). Rough outline for the build is:
9 Pylon
13 Gateway
15 Assimilator
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
18 Cybernetics Core
20 Pylon
21 Stalker
21 Warpgate
23 Mothership Core
25 Stalker
28 Stargate
From here he goes out with stalkers and mothership core to harass the front while building 2 oracles for harassment and nexus at around 6:00, following it up with more oracles for offence or phoenixes for defence.
I really love this build (haven't played it exactly like mc yet though). Has anyone tested it? I would like to know how to deal with early bio aggression (like 2 rax or something like that, I feel reaper pressure and proxy raxes aren't as scary due to MsC and early stalkers). It's hard to know if terran is doing anything like that with a probe scout, since most terrans are taking early refinery now. It's obviously possible to scout that with MsC and stalkers, but it is likely that energy will be spent for recall and will be unable to photon overcharge the natural. Do you just concede your natural and turtle in the base with sentries and hope that your opponent can't deal with oracles? Or is there a better transition that might allow you to keep your natural?
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On March 17 2013 01:01 rEalGuapo wrote:
So what to do in PvZ if zerg goes 2base?
I need Stargate vs Roach shit or fast Mutas but I die to Swarmhosts if I go for fast Stargate because the Colossi are just way too late..
Go fast robo for obs and/or fast warpgate (3 or 4 gate) with a round of zealots to pressure/scout. Fast robo as in before you add additional gates and before you get multiple stalkers/sentries. You don't need stargate for roach, MSC and overcharge makes defending 2 base roach attacks much easier as long as you have some warning of it coming and have decent sim city. If you scout SH you can easily add a robo bay for colossus. If you scout muta it's not too late to add stargate(s) and make phoenix.
On March 17 2013 02:03 ThaReckoning wrote:
As for beating mech, frankly I have no idea. I can tell you that going skytoss doesn't work, and I can tell you that going the good old chargelot + archon + immortal doesn't work, both for the same reason, which I'm sure you can guess.
Why doesn't skytoss work vs mech? It worked in WoL and now it's even stronger. Of course you can't go straight to skytoss, I have limited experience vs mech so far but I'm just doing what I did in WoL and it works just fine - I go robo heavy (colo + immo) to defend against any 2 base pushes and then I transition to air.
On March 17 2013 03:59 ThaReckoning wrote:
I was trying to do gateway expands vs Z because recall was supposed to fill a huge gap in the protoss early game that was forcing us to FFE, and was allowing zerg to just blind 3 base every game. However, even with huge gateway pushes and recall, they can still pretty easily do this. Even if you kill the third and recall without losing a single unit, you still haven't really undone the huge lead they get by just droning up, because you can't follow up with any kind of timing attack that I've found. I've been going FFE into stargate + 4g + robo for ages, the problem is that your new units are meaningless with this build. You won't get any significant drone kills with an oracle (or any at all, most of the time) because spores are pretty much free and come out way too early. While your new units are meaningless, zerg's are not. He can still incorporate swarm hosts and vipers into 3 hatch builds no problem. This is what's creating issues.
What's wrong with 3 base zerg? 3 base zerg as a response to FFE does not automatically put the zerg ahead. The MSC has greatly improved early game PvZ for the protoss, allowing you to enter the mid game at a much better position - you can now play greedier, take your 3rd faster, and harass earlier better, forcing the zerg to put out more units early on. Recall has little to do with this, it's the fact that you get a super early pew-pewing air unit out that can accompany your traditional pre-warpgate zealot/stalker pokes making them much more effective.
On March 17 2013 05:03 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Ok in every PVP game , all i see is a pylon outside my base and proxy cannon-
1. Best way to defend - Pull all workers or just 3-4 ?
2. Post I force cancel- am i in an eco advantage - what do I do ? make 2 gates and rush zeals or expand?
1. Always stick 1 probe chasing after his probe. Pull additional probes to trap and kill if possible, but always leave 1 (not more than 1) chasing it. Don't pull all workers. Generally you want to leave pylons alone and put 4 probes immediately on any cannons he puts down, but if he walls a cannon with pylons, then you'd want to try to break down the pylon wall as fast as you can while chronoing your first zealot out to help. If you spot the first pylon early, leave a probe on hold position at likely wall-in cannon spots. Also, watch out for a second probe.
2. Don't try to rush zeals, he can easily wall and cannon back home. Do whatever else you want besides that, but the easiest would be to just go for warp prism 4 gate or blink. Now with HoTS you don't even need an obs for blink, just use MSC or hallucinate a phoenix with a sentry.
On March 17 2013 03:00 Salv wrote:I have to play more games to test it out, but my PvT has been improving a bit, especially versus medivacs. The one good thing about the medivac speed ability for Protoss is that it encourages Terrans to try drops a lot more often, which means if you can take advantage of that you'll be ahead - the only problem is it can be really difficult to take advantage. I've played games where I take an expand off 2 gateway robo versus 1rax/1factory/1medivac and transition into double forge colossi - but the problem is that if the Terran really commits to dropping you with three or four medivac, slow stalkers are useless. So what I have been doing is transitioning into an expansion, double forge, citadel, and then chronoing out blink and then zealot speed. You can leave a lot of stalkers in your main to defend versus drops as long as you leave your mothership core at your natural ready to photon overcharge (+zealots/immortal). Then after blink is started, you can begin to get your colossi, then try to take an expansion. The only problem with this is that: - You seemingly have to play flawlessly. If you let one drop happen in your base, it can fuck you over really badly.
- The Terran gets map control and a quicker third base.
- During the game, it's going to feel like you're behind and that you have to significantly outplay them to win.
Obviously this isn't ideal, but this is something that's allowed me to get to a midgame position with upgrades, colossi, and no economy damage. My Terran opponent is usually further ahead than I am, not too much, but noticeably, and I have to play quite well in order to win. Right now versus ~300 point masters players it seems to work OK.
My take on the new medivacs in PvT is that it makes mid-game aggression very difficult for the protoss. As soon as you move out, your main gets dropped. My goal is to just play defensively and go for the late game where you can have things like HTs in your main to defend against drops and/or additional cannons. Meanwhile, even though mid-game is hard now, MSC gives you a huge boost to your early game, both from a defensive and offensive poke/scouting standpoint, allowing you to get to the mid-game at a much better position. There are new early game options as well, such as oracles and DTs from the cheaper shrine. 1 gate expand into fast DTs is a great build I think, you can even do it off of 1 gas now (adding the second gas after you get rid of the scouting SCV), making it difficult for the terran to scout and prepare.
On March 17 2013 07:45 Ldawg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 19:37 recklessfire wrote:On March 16 2013 16:34 Ldawg wrote:So I ran into a build in PvT on ladder quite often that has me very frustrated. They proxy a factory then land in a corner of my base. Basically if I can't get in his base with a probe scout I have no idea this is coming and it seems ridiculous to stop. Here is an excellent TL post by Bronzeknee (GM with Protoss) that describes the build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384139¤tpage=2#29This build seems even worse now that the MSC doesn't have any detection abilities. Has anyone ran into this build and have any suggestions? i dont think there's an answer until blizzard changes something. I ran into a proxy widow mine build but he was rallying marauders from a 2nd rax that i couldnt scout because of the full wall. He just walks into my natural and places mines while pressuring my ramp. Even after getting the robo out, it took a while to fend off his marauders and the three mines he had placed in my natural. By the time i placed my nexus down, he already expanded so I was pretty behind in economy and since robo/colossus tech is so gas dependent i was pretty much screwed from that point. I dont have issues with aggressive options this early in the game. I dont have an issue with the mines themselves but I think they come out way too fast, and it takes so much gas to get out the necessary detection to deal with this. They are more threatening than cloak banshees imo. Yes, I find this proxy widow mine build super-frustrating and nigh unstoppable. Throw in the fact that a high percentage of Terran players use this against me on ladder and I am at the point where I just sit out until something is changed. Even when I see the proxy factory and deny it in my base they just have a widow mine bury at my natural and expand since the mine will deny my expo for several minutes until I get detection.
I'm not too familiar with this build having only run into it once or twice, but proxies have always been dangerous regardless if they are widow mine proxies or something else. I would scout for proxies if you get suspicious (such as your probe not being able to get into his base, or if a scv scouts your base and then immediately runs away), and you definitely shouldn't let a hidden factory land in your base. Place your 2nd and 3rd pylons near edges and dark corners of your base. Other than that, I'd recommend chronoing stalkers out of your first gateway to scout/harass, and getting a robo asap. Definitely no sentries if you can't scout what the terran is doing.
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Why doesn't skytoss work vs mech? It worked in WoL and now it's even stronger. Of course you can't go straight to skytoss, I have limited experience vs mech so far but I'm just doing what I did in WoL and it works just fine - I go robo heavy (colo + immo) to defend against any 2 base pushes and then I transition to air.
This is usually what I do as well. However, when it becomes less tanks, and more WM/thor/viking I usually take too much damage from widow mines and end up crippled against the BC followup. I feel that if I can find a way to combat the WM usage in the midgame, then I'll easily handle anything later with tempest/void. Is there anything special you can tell me about it, other than be super careful and bait them with phoenixes?
What's wrong with 3 base zerg? 3 base zerg as a response to FFE does not automatically put the zerg ahead. The MSC has greatly improved early game PvZ for the protoss, allowing you to enter the mid game at a much better position - you can now play greedier, take your 3rd faster, and harass earlier better, forcing the zerg to put out more units early on. Recall has little to do with this, it's the fact that you get a super early pew-pewing air unit out that can accompany your traditional pre-warpgate zealot/stalker pokes making them much more effective.
I just felt like with the new recall we could go back to a place where gateway expands were just as viable as FFE. I'm still on the fence about this, and experimenting heavily. I'm really liking the idea of big gateway attacks with recall at 7 or 8 minutes, but at the same time I don't feel safe pushing out with sentries at that time in case an attack happens. Most of the time I push out with MSC and a few zealots to deny a third and force some lings, which is the best that can be hoped for I suppose. I had some good results out of it tonight.
What's wrong with 3 base zerg? 3 base zerg as a response to FFE does not automatically put the zerg ahead. The MSC has greatly improved early game PvZ for the protoss, allowing you to enter the mid game at a much better position - you can now play greedier, take your 3rd faster, and harass earlier better, forcing the zerg to put out more units early on. Recall has little to do with this, it's the fact that you get a super early pew-pewing air unit out that can accompany your traditional pre-warpgate zealot/stalker pokes making them much more effective.
I don't know, I've just never been a fan of forge expands in general. I learned them and played them because they were (are?) the best way to open, but I'd much rather open gateway, and at least have some control over the flow of PvZ. It's weird that I feel this way, because in PvT I like to defend. Anyways, thanks for the response.
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On March 17 2013 18:17 ThaReckoning wrote:
This is usually what I do as well. However, when it becomes less tanks, and more WM/thor/viking I usually take too much damage from widow mines and end up crippled against the BC followup. I feel that if I can find a way to combat the WM usage in the midgame, then I'll easily handle anything later with tempest/void. Is there anything special you can tell me about it, other than be super careful and bait them with phoenixes?
Are you talking about mid game or late game? I usually go pure ground and then switch to pure air. In the mid game, my army consists of mostly immortals and colossus, widow mines aren't really effective against robo units. In late game WoL, I was going pure carriers, and I don't think widow mines or thors are good against that either. Now my skytoss has even more flexibility and I might do a slower and safer transition by adding in voids and eventually tempests, and I don't see WM and thors being good against those either as long as you semi spread out your voids.
On March 17 2013 18:17 ThaReckoning wrote:
I just felt like with the new recall we could go back to a place where gateway expands were just as viable as FFE. I'm still on the fence about this, and experimenting heavily. I'm really liking the idea of big gateway attacks with recall at 7 or 8 minutes, but at the same time I don't feel safe pushing out with sentries at that time in case an attack happens. Most of the time I push out with MSC and a few zealots to deny a third and force some lings, which is the best that can be hoped for I suppose. I had some good results out of it tonight.
I don't know, I've just never been a fan of forge expands in general. I learned them and played them because they were (are?) the best way to open, but I'd much rather open gateway, and at least have some control over the flow of PvZ. It's weird that I feel this way, because in PvT I like to defend. Anyways, thanks for the response.
IMO the MSC has strengthened the FFE a lot more rather than the gateway expand, for reasons I mentioned earlier. You keep talking about recall, but I just don't see it being a game changer. If you get into a position where you're forced to use recall, then chances are you're at a big disadvantage in the game. Sure if you didn't have recall you would have instantly lost, but the game is still not going in your favor. I pretty much have 0 experience with gateway expands in HoTS so I could be wrong, feel free to share replays of either yourself or others if you have any.
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What third do you guys usually take against terran on Akilon Flats?
I can't decide on which one makes me less dropable. The one by the nat will make it harder to drop the natural but the other one will make it harder to drop my main but it's still possible (while it's nearly impossible to drop my nat when I take that third)
What third do you take?
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With regards to all protosses struggling with drop play from terran I suggest you look at :
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=364130
This build helps get HT's out early to counter this aggression and push the terran as well if he is going marine-marauder. Ive been using this build with a MSC and it has very nice success. However i have been making 4-5 obs just to be safe against widow mines etc.
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i been using this strat since beta a few months ago. too lazy to make a guide so people will always see MC as the creatorof this lol :D i like my way better though here's the open:
9 pylon
13 gate
15 double gas @100% 6 probes [3x in each gas]
17 pylon
17 cyb core (cut probe for a split second)
@ 100% cyb core, stargate
@ 100/100 MSC this is super early for a msc because it gets out in time to stop reapers. if they proxy reapers close to you theres a chance one will get in while this msc is about halfway maybe, but just pull a few probes and micro back. reapers take too long to kill you should survive without taking losses. if they go for a handful of reapers eventually the msc will have the nexus cannon. same goes with early harass like hellions or what not. cannon shuts these early timings down.
@ 50/50 wg research
5x chronoboosts on probes, last one is saved for first oracle.
after you start your second oracle, expand. ~5:30 or so.
get 4 oracles(magic number is 4 always) they shoot mines down before mines can shoot back.
after this i like to go straight into double forge as soon as the money allows, and even straight into twilight tech. the oracles let you be safe vs pretty much anything especially with nexus cannon. so be sure to be safe with your oracles. they let you play super aggressively in terms of macro. you can probably take a fast third too. after twilight finishes i like to start dt shrine in case they try to do a big push you couldnjt otherwise hold the dts can usually hold off by throwing in one at a time, some in their base etc. waste scans and if they have no scans, no attacks will come
70% winrate pvt right now, high masters/gm. lagabstract @ sc2ranks, top 50 global if u want to see my name :p
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Why isnt MSC selected in the army group when I hit f2 its so annoying!!
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What are most of you doing with your MSC? I have been using it, mostly, for photon overcharge and as thus I usually make it quite late - sometimes not at all if it feels like I won't be making use of the overcharge. PvT I make it almost always to protect my natural, but PvZ I find I do not use it all that often. Any additional uses you guys are finding work well?
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Italy12246 Posts
I'm curious about using it in PvT to move out, "bait" a doom drop (since these fucking terrans always have their army loaded up in medivacs in the middle of fucking nowhere anyway) and clean it up. I haven't played much with that though.
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On March 17 2013 18:35 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 18:17 ThaReckoning wrote:
This is usually what I do as well. However, when it becomes less tanks, and more WM/thor/viking I usually take too much damage from widow mines and end up crippled against the BC followup. I feel that if I can find a way to combat the WM usage in the midgame, then I'll easily handle anything later with tempest/void. Is there anything special you can tell me about it, other than be super careful and bait them with phoenixes?
Are you talking about mid game or late game? I usually go pure ground and then switch to pure air. In the mid game, my army consists of mostly immortals and colossus, widow mines aren't really effective against robo units. In late game WoL, I was going pure carriers, and I don't think widow mines or thors are good against that either. Now my skytoss has even more flexibility and I might do a slower and safer transition by adding in voids and eventually tempests, and I don't see WM and thors being good against those either as long as you semi spread out your voids. Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 18:17 ThaReckoning wrote:
I just felt like with the new recall we could go back to a place where gateway expands were just as viable as FFE. I'm still on the fence about this, and experimenting heavily. I'm really liking the idea of big gateway attacks with recall at 7 or 8 minutes, but at the same time I don't feel safe pushing out with sentries at that time in case an attack happens. Most of the time I push out with MSC and a few zealots to deny a third and force some lings, which is the best that can be hoped for I suppose. I had some good results out of it tonight.
I don't know, I've just never been a fan of forge expands in general. I learned them and played them because they were (are?) the best way to open, but I'd much rather open gateway, and at least have some control over the flow of PvZ. It's weird that I feel this way, because in PvT I like to defend. Anyways, thanks for the response.
IMO the MSC has strengthened the FFE a lot more rather than the gateway expand, for reasons I mentioned earlier. You keep talking about recall, but I just don't see it being a game changer. If you get into a position where you're forced to use recall, then chances are you're at a big disadvantage in the game. Sure if you didn't have recall you would have instantly lost, but the game is still not going in your favor. I pretty much have 0 experience with gateway expands in HoTS so I could be wrong, feel free to share replays of either yourself or others if you have any.
Maybe that's my problem. Instead of going pure robo in the midgame, I've been going with immortal/chargelot/archon and gradually mixing in voids and more stargates until I get to void/tempest and then I slowly mix in carriers. I haven't had much experience vs it in HotS, but the few times I did the widow mines neutered my void count early. Maybe your way of cold turkey going into air is better.
As for the gateway expands, I think you're right about recall. Most of the units you can trade with that early, you won't be needing later anyway, the sentries are really the only concern, and I don't even move out with those anymore. It's still in that weird "I have no idea how to play this game" stage for me, so there's that. My replays wouldn't be very telling, I'm still only playing high diamond/low masters players, so I'm not really at the level where I'm playing real SC2 yet, and I feel my opponents aren't reacting to the gateway opener in the best way they could. They're still trying to roach ling all in me, or going 2 base muta when I deny their third.
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On March 18 2013 01:24 Salv wrote:
What are most of you doing with your MSC? I have been using it, mostly, for photon overcharge and as thus I usually make it quite late - sometimes not at all if it feels like I won't be making use of the overcharge. PvT I make it almost always to protect my natural, but PvZ I find I do not use it all that often. Any additional uses you guys are finding work well?
I definitely don't move out and pressure with it the way other people seem to like doing, with the zealot/stalker/msc pressure early. When I do take it across the map it's very situational, like when I see a protoss forge expanding or something.
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Italy12246 Posts
You don't FFE in PvP. Ever. Wtf.
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On March 18 2013 02:37 Teoita wrote:
You don't FFE in PvP. Ever. Wtf.
I know, right? I had a O.o moment and then just rallied a MSC straight to his mineral line. According to him this makes me homosexual, but I'm okay with that if it gets me wins over people who FFE in PvP.
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I guess MC showed the way in current balance PvT. Stargate+mingames for 1 or 2 base all-ins.
Just go macro when u want a hell of a challenge vs speedvacs.
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Italy12246 Posts
Sounds a whole lot like WoL PvZ >.>
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On March 18 2013 03:00 Belha wrote:
I guess MC showed the way in current balance PvT. Stargate+mingames for 1 or 2 base all-ins.
Just go macro when u want a hell of a challenge vs speedvacs.
Given the way MC played in WoL, I expect him to continue doing crazy all-ins for at least a few months longer than any other protoss while somehow still winning.
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I played my first game versus mech PvT - I have to say it's pretty difficult. I started with double robo into colossus/immortal and transitioned into mothership, carrier, tempest. My opponent's composition was mostly thor, vikings, and widow mines. The widow mines are the big problem because my carriers cannot outrun mines, neither can the tempst, nor the mothership. If your opponent has 10-15 mines and they are chasing your army, you have to run away because if they burrow and fire (which some will regardless of how well you try to kite) your entire army is going to get smashed.
I can see on some maps being able to kite around immovable terrain and air could allow you to avoid widow mines, but at least on some maps and in some engagements, it's going to be really difficult you need a way to take care of the widow mines. The tempests and carriers are pretty pitiful at killing mines, I'm not sure how void rays do, but I doubt they do much better. My only thought was maybe high templar with storm to try to storm the big clumps of mines as they come up on your army? If the widow mines weren't there a transition to sky-toss would massacre mech - as it stands I still think sky-toss is the best option, but I am not sure the best way to defeat the widow mines - maybe keep colossi with your army as well?
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That build MC is using is so good O_O Anyone know the BO?
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EPT
