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On March 18 2013 07:08 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 06:22 Phloat wrote:On March 18 2013 04:21 ronpaul012 wrote:
Whats the best way to play against proxy stargate in pvp? I'm in plat right now, and actually beating it most of the time but I'm wondering what the most efficient and safe way to defeat it is? Right now if I scout the early 2nd gas and no tech in the main I just 4gate them since they don't have enough units to actually kill me. They usually destroy my worker line with the oracle, but I destroy their base and win. Is there a better way to do things though? I'm not much higher level than you, but I believe you have found a solution. day9 points out that the answer to a lot of cheeky stuff is "just go kill him". I do the same thing you do if like 7 pheonix destroy my mineral line early game; they don't have energy or other units so I just go win a base race because pheonix don't hurt buildings... Be careful with this, standard PvP 2 gas builds get their tech in their main after they chase away the scouting probe and can defend 4 gates so just because you see 2 gas and no tech in main doesn't mean there's a proxy or stargate. If for some reason you knew a proxy stargate was coming, then the best response would probably be some sort of fast expand into a stalker heavy blink build. However, the problem is that the point of a proxy stargate is that it's difficult to scout, so your best bet is to use builds that can pressure/poke/scout early on after the scouting probe such as stalkers + MSC with fast warpgate, builds that can just go and kill your opponent like blink, or defensively oriented fast expand builds that include stalkers and aren't just mass sentry.
Yea i kinda glossed over the proxy part, I was referencing some really weird builds ive seen on ladder recently.
Again im not high level, but i keep seeing people build like... literally only pheonix past the first stalker and i just go kill them. For a proxied single stargate you are definitely correct, I don't see that and I was replying to this guy assuming he was facing the same dumb plat shenanigans I am.
Now if only I didn't die to mines every game >_>
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On March 18 2013 08:56 rsvp wrote:
I have very little experience with tempests in HoTS but I used carriers a lot in WoL against zerg and mech terran so here's my 2 cents:
PvZ - I don't see the usefulness of tempests other than a few to snipe units/buildings here and there and to force engagements. You want the majority of your army to be either void ray or carrier, and I while void rays are better against corruptors, carriers are better against hydras.
PvT - Same thing for tempests - I don't see why you would get more than a few if any at all. As for carriers versus void rays here, late game void rays are better than carriers against vikings but are weaker against everything else - thors (well, maybe not thors, it depends on the mass and how well you can spread out your voids), marines, the new HSM, widow mines, etc. Meanwhile, vikings don't really even counter carriers, so going for carriers seem like the better end game option to me.
I think if you use tempest a little bit you'll see the appeal of them. While they are probably not as good as void or carrier in a straight up fight, they are tremendous at kiting and picking off units from a distance. For example, when I play against mech and I make a lot of tempest you can gain vision, move forward, throw a volley at a thor and move away - you'll one shot the thor and they won't in a position to do any damage to you in return.
Update - So in fact, tempest are better than void ray - by far - when it comes to competing against thor for example. The real problem I find with mech isn't what air unit you get, it seems like carriers or tempests are both completely fine at deal with thor and vikings - it's the widow mines that you need to avoid. They are faster than our air and their damage is insane. Carriers, void rays, and tempests cannot kill them fast enough and they're cheap enough to mass. Storm has been my best idea, or perhaps colossi.
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After watching MC's games using the oracle opening, could it be considered a standard way to open against a 1rax gasless FE from terran? It just seems to me that the oracle opening he did to MVP and to bomber completely shuts down the current WoL gasless FE build. I wonder if terrans will now be forced to change their FE timings slightly.
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On March 18 2013 07:09 Da.Frozzy wrote:
Hi fellow protoss,
im just curious why the carrier is still in the game. i mean against what composition is it useful? isnt tempest + voidray better in really every occasion?
i dont know but i do not build carriers anymore and just stick to other air if i need it in the match ups.
would be great if sb got any advices.
Making terrans eat their own widow mines ^^
I actually think skytoss pvz benefits heavily from a few carriers when your air upgrades are at 2-2 or better. Interceptors do ridiculous damage with upgrades. I actually find that if he's still building hydras I and switch into more heavier carrier production (like 5 or 6+) it makes it really hard for his targeting ai to hit anything meaningful without focus fire, and that makes it easier to land storms. Also the range makes them good for pick offs on a retreating army, better damage for cost than a tempest by far and (if I'm not mistaken) the leash range is only 1 shy of a tempest.
Nostalgia may be clouding my vision, but I think carriers are underused.
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Here's something interesting: Due to the delay before a widow mine shoots its projectile, it is possible to lift one or many widow mines with the phoenix's graviton beam before they shoot. Also, when the widow mines gets back on the ground, they will be unburrowed.
So a harassing squad of one oracle and a few phoenixes can deal with widow mines in the mineral line, if your control is good enough.
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I know swarm hosts are considered underpowered but how do you deal with them? I opened ffe into robo with immortals and transitioning into colossus looking for a 13-15 minute push. I scouted the zerg base with a hallucinated phoenix and didnt see a spire so I was excited. However he just rushed swarm host. i thought I had won the game as I had what I thought was the right composition with several observers. However I could never kill the locusts quickly enough to get to the SH. Eventually he mixed in hydra roach and corrupters and I was overwhelmed. What is the answer to this. I was using everything I had to defend so I didn't feel like I could counter attack.
On a smaller note should I be building zealots out of my gates or stalkers? I am only silver in hots so I am not sure.
Edit: I meant that SH are under not overpowered
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On March 18 2013 11:22 Dominus143 wrote:
I know swarm hosts are considered overpowered but how do you deal with them? I opened ffe into robo with immortals and transitioning into colossus looking for a 13-15 minute push. I scouted the zerg base with a hallucinated phoenix and didnt see a spire so I was excited. However he just rushed swarm host. i thought I had won the game as I had what I thought was the right composition with several observers. However I could never kill the locusts quickly enough to get to the SH. Eventually he mixed in hydra roach and corrupters and I was overwhelmed. What is the answer to this. I was using everything I had to defend so I didn't feel like I could counter attack.
On a smaller note should I be building zealots out of my gates or stalkers? I am only silver in hots so I am not sure.
Think of them like siege tanks, they must siege up before they can attack. Have you considered using mobility against them, such as going around and flanking? Stargate tech is also nice against them.
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On March 18 2013 11:22 Dominus143 wrote:
I know swarm hosts are considered overpowered but how do you deal with them? I opened ffe into robo with immortals and transitioning into colossus looking for a 13-15 minute push. I scouted the zerg base with a hallucinated phoenix and didnt see a spire so I was excited. However he just rushed swarm host. i thought I had won the game as I had what I thought was the right composition with several observers. However I could never kill the locusts quickly enough to get to the SH. Eventually he mixed in hydra roach and corrupters and I was overwhelmed. What is the answer to this. I was using everything I had to defend so I didn't feel like I could counter attack.
On a smaller note should I be building zealots out of my gates or stalkers? I am only silver in hots so I am not sure.
You did have the right composition, something else is going wrong, maybe you're just getting out macroed. Do you have a replay? As for zealots vs stalkers, you should be making mostly stalkers with zealots as mineral dump. Personally, I avoid zealots in my main army and just use cannons and expansions as my mineral dump.
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How are the higher level players opening up in PvZ now, and what seems to be the most effective of those openings? I've been trying to watch more pro gameplay, and I was able to watch much of MLG, but often I just don't have the time.
I've been trying to open stargate vs zerg, and sometimes it seems to work great, since not only can I get some drone kills, but I can get map control, scouting, and really force the zerg into certain tech paths which I can preemptively counter. However, if the zerg scoutes it, or just suspects it, then stargate can be shut down pretty hard. If possible, I would like to keep on doing soem sort of stargate play, since it's really fun, but I would like for it to be a bit more reliable.
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On March 18 2013 13:54 cwalk wrote:
How are the higher level players opening up in PvZ now, and what seems to be the most effective of those openings? I've been trying to watch more pro gameplay, and I was able to watch much of MLG, but often I just don't have the time.
I've been trying to open stargate vs zerg, and sometimes it seems to work great, since not only can I get some drone kills, but I can get map control, scouting, and really force the zerg into certain tech paths which I can preemptively counter. However, if the zerg scoutes it, or just suspects it, then stargate can be shut down pretty hard. If possible, I would like to keep on doing soem sort of stargate play, since it's really fun, but I would like for it to be a bit more reliable.
If your doing a solid stargate build, it shouldn't matter if the zerg scouts it, it is very uncommon for a zerg to be surprised by a stargate opening. Phoenixes are a greating scouting tool, plus you can kill overlords and lings at the watch tower as well as get drone kills. If i have to, i don't even mind building the stargate in an overlords vision because it is solid and reliable enough that it won't matter. And zerg will most likely scout the stargate anyway someway or another.
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On March 18 2013 13:50 rsvp wrote:
You did have the right composition, something else is going wrong, maybe you're just getting out macroed. Do you have a replay? As for zealots vs stalkers, you should be making mostly stalkers with zealots as mineral dump. Personally, I avoid zealots in my main army and just use cannons and expansions as my mineral dump.
http://drop.sc/311051
Here is the game replay. I was gold in wol and am silver in hots so I have many macro issues. I am more interested in the question in hand unless you see something major that is an easy fix in my general play.
I also didnt really realize how much damage the locusts were doing until the end when I started to stutter step my army from them.
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I think Zerg players are beginning to deal with stargate play more and more effectively, and I don't exactly buy the argument that just having phoenix on the map killing a few overlords is enough to warrant the tech. If your opponent opens with hydralisk, then phoenix can have a hard time. I've also found that just going into colossi void ray isn't as good as it once was. When Zerg players were just going hydra/roach/corrupter then phoenix -> colossi -> void ray was terrific, but I am seeing less of that lately and more viper usage - which makes me wish I had high templar instead of void rays. If you play a game where your phoenix harass doesn't do a lot of damage, and they get a quick forth and go into viper/hydralisk/roach(+swarm host) sometimes - that's pretty rough.
All this is making me consider other options rather than just opening stargate every game - in fact I play against a lot of Zerg players who just make spore crawlers pre-emptively, scouting the stargate or not because they just expect that it's coming. The only thing that makes me hesitant to not make the stargate is that I don't really know what else I would do versus mutalisk play, because the WOL storm + cannon style seems ineffective if the mutalisk are just going to heal back up again. Then again, we have a mothership core for photon overcharge, and maybe it's now possible to just transition into double stargate phoenix if we scout mutalisk? I think this needs consideration.
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Italy12246 Posts
I'm still not sure wether you can reactively throw down stargates vs mutas.
From what little i've seen, robo/blink expand gets destroyed pretty horribly by super greedy muta builds, even more so than in WoL. Having phoenixes flying around just feels really comfortable for me, and you can do a bit of damage unless the Zerg makes a ton of spores per base (like two at each), in which case you are in a good spot anyway.
I haven't faced any kind of fast viper timing yet but i agree that on paper it sounds really scary.
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On March 19 2013 00:03 Teoita wrote:
I'm still not sure wether you can reactively throw down stargates vs mutas.
From what little i've seen, robo/blink expand gets destroyed pretty horribly by super greedy muta builds, even more so than in WoL. Having phoenixes flying around just feels really comfortable for me, and you can do a bit of damage unless the Zerg makes a ton of spores per base (like two at each), in which case you are in a good spot anyway.
I haven't faced any kind of fast viper timing yet but i agree that on paper it sounds really scary.
The problem I see happening in the near future is that right now, phoenix, colossi need the void ray production to defeat corruptors, and you kind of need to make them preemptively because void rays build slowly and you need a certain amount of them to be effective. Even if you don't see corruptors you kind of have to make them because if they spawn 8-10 corruptors at once, and then you start your void ray production, you will be very weak in that timing before your void ray count is up.
So what I am seeing some Zerg players do now is open hydra/roach (sometimes swarm host as well) and wait and see what you do. If you start the void ray production, they'll just make the vipers and then you're in trouble. If you don't make the void rays, they can bank a bit of mineral/gas, pop 8-10 corruptors and hit the timing in between you seeing they have corruptors and trying to produce void ray.
This makes me think the stargate build is simply not going to be viable as a build that can transition between what the Zerg does, I think it's a good build, but I don't think it can be used to defend versus everything effectively. So I want to try non-stargate builds but that's where mutalisks would seem unbeatable. I'm going to play a bunch of PvZ's and see what happens.
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Italy12246 Posts
Well it's been the go to middle of the road pvz build since 2010, i don't think that'll happen.
In the worst case scenario imo zergs will learn timings to punish straight up colossus void ray (which wouldnt be half bad, deathballs are stupid in general) and we'll just go colossus/blink stalker instead.
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I wonder if it would be best to forgo Collasi altogether in PvZ. FFE into Stargate and then Templar might be best now that mutas are so threatening and Vipers essentially 1 shot Collasi. That frees up the robo to churn out observers and immortals.
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Italy12246 Posts
I'm not sure you can get storm in time vs the most aggressive hydra pushes, and more importantly i feel like colossi are needed vs swarm hosts; templar don't cut it unfortunately.
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On March 19 2013 00:41 Teoita wrote:
I'm not sure you can get storm in time vs the most aggressive hydra pushes, and more importantly i feel like colossi are needed vs swarm hosts; templar don't cut it unfortunately.
You can get storm in-time depending on your build order. Especially versus viper/hydra pushes it is very important.
Versus Swarm host i would prefer going for air since then you make less unnecessary loses, though Colossus are an option too.
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How should I respond when a Zerg player sends a dozen Mutas into my expansion's mineral line?
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Could someone point me to a vod where you hold those roach all ins with stargate openings in PvZ? i started again after 2 years of not playing, and i know my macro is so shitty, but i feel that 90% of the time in plat they roach me while i have maybe 1 void ray and some gateway units, and it does sooo much damage every time while my Void is trying to wither them down. :#
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EPT
