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On March 19 2013 09:41 n0ah wrote:Help with PvZ... EVERY time I go FFE, the zerg player always just mass ling/roach/hydras me before I can even get a decent army.. am I supposed to stay on 2 bases and just build up an army? I can't win PvZ at all... 
Do you mean you lose to a ling/roach/hydra bust on 2 bases or that you can't hold a third against ling/roach/hydras? If the former, well, the usual: if you smell a big bust coming, drop more cannons, make more sentries/gates. If the latter, then yeah it seems like you can't take early thirds in HoTS. I usually take mine at like 13-14 mins earliest, after I have some colo and voids out to fend off speed-hydra aggression.
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On March 19 2013 15:56 NotSoHappy wrote:
I'm sick of widow mines. One T even placed 2 each at both of my ramps leading out from my base. : o
Won with 1 base immortal all in. Anyone tried dt+wp all in? I think going stargate while facing T with fast widow mines is risky.
I think MC's fast stargate play is quite safe against widow mine aggression, someone posted the build a bit higher up I believe
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On March 19 2013 10:55 mophideus wrote:
MC's 4Gate Oracle build in PvT
9 Pylon
13 Gateway
2x Gas on ~15
16 Pylon
18 Cybernetics Core
Hide the next pylon in a corner of your base
Warpgate/Stalker (chronoboosted)
Mothership Core
Stalker
Stargate at hidden pylon >:D
Sentry
Start chronoboosting oracles out of the stargate. After the starting the first one build a Nexus at your natural
Keep building oracles and throw down 3 more gateways as you can afford them. MC has been going up to 4 Oracles.
Now from here the idea is to have 4 Oracles and a Mothership Core harassing the main while having gateway units consisting of mostly Stalkers hit the front. Split up Terrans units. If this build is unscouted or they don't have enough turrets and Vikings you will just shit on him. If you want you can also have the gateway and stargate units together and just attack the front using Timewarp to slow the units and let the Oracles melt everything. A lot of Terrans have been opening with widow mines, so be careful of those as they will 1 shot an oracle! Just remember to use the Oracles Detection ability to kill of any widow mines at ramps or in mineral lines so your attack goes smoothly. Also pretty much the whole time you want to be spending your chrono on probes!
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Courtesy of reddit user pourcupinetree3
Thanks for the build- am currently in top silver league and every PVT ive played so far is a 2 base timing that terran does with MMM which can hit in 10 mins tops which I think will be hard to stop as it focusses on divide and conquering?
Some help here please
1. Can some please tell me why isnt the damn MsC selected in your army when you hit f2( default key to choose all army units?) I hit f2 and a move towards the enemy camp when I find my mSc still over my nexus T_T. - Also how do you deal with the observer , it somehow is classified as a amry unit - so when you group units with f2 , the obs u put in the enemy base also leaves and comes to you..wtf
2. Current PVP- Ive no idea how to stop a proxy 3 gate - Do i blind make 3 gates myself in base and defend? If he went normal Gate core am doomed
Thanks
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On March 19 2013 16:47 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Some help here please
1. Can some please tell me why isnt the damn MsC selected in your army when you hit f2( default key to choose all army units?) I hit f2 and a move towards the enemy camp when I find my mSc still over my nexus T_T. - Also how do you deal with the observer , it somehow is classified as a amry unit - so when you group units with f2 , the obs u put in the enemy base also leaves and comes to you..wtf
2. Current PVP- Ive no idea how to stop a proxy 3 gate - Do i blind make 3 gates myself in base and defend? If he went normal Gate core am doomed
Thanks
1. Don't use f2. You won't have those problems with normal control groups. It's like 2 extra key strokes to use control groups instead of these select army hot key.
2. Try to scout it early. If you can hold off until you get a stalker/sentry you should be fine I think.
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On March 19 2013 16:47 vahgar.r24 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 10:55 mophideus wrote:
MC's 4Gate Oracle build in PvT
9 Pylon
13 Gateway
2x Gas on ~15
16 Pylon
18 Cybernetics Core
Hide the next pylon in a corner of your base
Warpgate/Stalker (chronoboosted)
Mothership Core
Stalker
Stargate at hidden pylon >:D
Sentry
Start chronoboosting oracles out of the stargate. After the starting the first one build a Nexus at your natural
Keep building oracles and throw down 3 more gateways as you can afford them. MC has been going up to 4 Oracles.
Now from here the idea is to have 4 Oracles and a Mothership Core harassing the main while having gateway units consisting of mostly Stalkers hit the front. Split up Terrans units. If this build is unscouted or they don't have enough turrets and Vikings you will just shit on him. If you want you can also have the gateway and stargate units together and just attack the front using Timewarp to slow the units and let the Oracles melt everything. A lot of Terrans have been opening with widow mines, so be careful of those as they will 1 shot an oracle! Just remember to use the Oracles Detection ability to kill of any widow mines at ramps or in mineral lines so your attack goes smoothly. Also pretty much the whole time you want to be spending your chrono on probes!
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Courtesy of reddit user pourcupinetree3 Thanks for the build- am currently in top silver league and every PVT ive played so far is a 2 base timing that terran does with MMM which can hit in 10 mins tops which I think will be hard to stop as it focusses on divide and conquering? Some help here please 1. Can some please tell me why isnt the damn MsC selected in your army when you hit f2( default key to choose all army units?) I hit f2 and a move towards the enemy camp when I find my mSc still over my nexus T_T. - Also how do you deal with the observer , it somehow is classified as a amry unit - so when you group units with f2 , the obs u put in the enemy base also leaves and comes to you..wtf 2. Current PVP- Ive no idea how to stop a proxy 3 gate - Do i blind make 3 gates myself in base and defend? If he went normal Gate core am doomed Thanks
1. I think the best way to deal with that is to not use the "select all army" hotkey, and instead keep everything on a control group like you would in WoL. I personally keep my mothership core on a separate group from everything else.
2. I don't actually know.
Semi-related, I've been having a lot of problems when I try to quickly box-select my units to drop a couple forcefields, then end up with the mothership core on top of my unit stack, where the sentry usually is. Any solutions other than just keeping my entire army hotkeyed?
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On March 19 2013 16:47 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Thanks for the build- am currently in top silver league and every PVT ive played so far is a 2 base timing that terran does with MMM which can hit in 10 mins tops which I think will be hard to stop as it focusses on divide and conquering?
Don't do this build if you are in Silver. Just try to do a solid expand and go into colossi. Something like:
13 Scout
19 Gas, cb Probes
22 Stalker, WG cb stalker
25 pylon
Sentry
Cb Probes
29 Nexus
31 MSC
33 Pylon
34 Robo
2x Sentry
39,40 Gates
@ Robo finish->Oracle scout
Get a Forge and a Robo Bay after that. If you are losing to 2 base timings from Terrans, this will beat that with either cannon on nexus or Colossi and force fields.
On March 19 2013 16:47 vahgar.r24 wrote:Some help here please
1. Can some please tell me why isnt the damn MsC selected in your army when you hit f2( default key to choose all army units?) I hit f2 and a move towards the enemy camp when I find my mSc still over my nexus T_T. - Also how do you deal with the observer , it somehow is classified as a amry unit - so when you group units with f2 , the obs u put in the enemy base also leaves and comes to you..wtf
Just don't use F2. Get used to hotkeying your MSC separately.
On March 19 2013 16:47 vahgar.r24 wrote:2. Current PVP- Ive no idea how to stop a proxy 3 gate - Do i blind make 3 gates myself in base and defend? If he went normal Gate core am doomed
Thanks
Scout around your base and natural at some point early on your build. If you scout the proxy gates, easiest thing to do is to cancel your Gas if it's still building and drop a Forge immediately. Make a cannon, 2 gasses and a Core once you can afford it and go kill him with whatever you want.
What is the correct way to play against Swarmhosts with Stargate/4Gate/Robo? Should I be getting a lot of Void Rays? Go into double Robo Colossi?
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What is the correct way to play against Swarmhosts with Stargate/4Gate/Robo? Should I be getting a lot of Void Rays? Go into double Robo Colossi?
If its two base swarmhosts, VR's will pretty much hard counter it, he shouldnt have enough gas for hydras, but he may have spore crawlers with his hosts (really shouldnt be an issue really). If he tries to go hydra, just switch into colossus and you'll be ok. You may want to delay your third though, i think the timing for the two base version is fairly fast, you should have 2ish void rays assuming you scouted it early enough.
3 base swarmhosts is a bit different. Let's assume he's going to siege your third. He's going to have a method of killing your observers (hydras surrounding his hosts with overseers/spores so you need to either turtle until you have a force that will just completely smash through his locusts, so you going to need to spend a ton of your gas on just colossus. Or use your robo for prisms and counter attack. Or if you can, move your army around his army and counter attack. It's really difficult to burn through the locust, so you need to be absolutely sure your army will melt them and then catch his hosts in between the cooldowns for the locust respawn. I personally dont like going double robo, it feels too much of an commitment, so i often go VR colossus stalker sentry and use the msc and power my way through. Just make sure to focus fire colossus on hydra, and VR on hosts.
take note: Always be constantly scouting for additional expos and his tech switch. If your going to make 5+ colossus, he will most likely be aware of this and save up resources for a tech switch like mutas.
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On March 19 2013 17:16 recklessfire wrote:Show nested quote +What is the correct way to play against Swarmhosts with Stargate/4Gate/Robo? Should I be getting a lot of Void Rays? Go into double Robo Colossi? If its two base swarmhosts, VR's will pretty much hard counter it, he shouldnt have enough gas for hydras, but he may have spore crawlers with his hosts (really shouldnt be an issue really). If he tries to go hydra, just switch into colossus and you'll be ok. You may want to delay your third though, i think the timing for the two base version is fairly fast, you should have 2ish void rays assuming you scouted it early enough. 3 base swarmhosts is a bit different. Let's assume he's going to siege your third. He's going to have a method of killing your observers (hydras surrounding his hosts with overseers/spores so you need to either turtle until you have a force that will just completely smash through his locusts, so you going to need to spend a ton of your gas on just colossus. Or use your robo for prisms and counter attack. Or if you can, move your army around his army and counter attack. It's really difficult to burn through the locust, so you need to be absolutely sure your army will melt them and then catch his hosts in between the cooldowns for the locust respawn. I personally dont like going double robo, it feels too much of an commitment, so i often go VR colossus stalker sentry and use the msc and power my way through. Just make sure to focus fire colossus on hydra, and VR on hosts. take note: Always be constantly scouting for additional expos and his tech switch. If your going to make 5+ colossus, he will most likely be aware of this and save up resources for a tech switch like mutas.
VR doesn't hard counter 2 base swarm host, every time I run into 2 base swarm host it's been accompanied with queens and spores (i.e. nydus outside your base). Personally I don't go stargate against 2 base zerg because of the threat of swarm host or hydra, in which case I'll need colossus. Stargate or not, you definitely want to get colossus asap. If you don't scout a 3rd base but you can't verify what 2 base tech he's going for yet, I'd start a robo bay for colossus blindly - if he ends up doing something else like muta you can always cancel or just not make colo.
On March 19 2013 16:47 vahgar.r24 wrote:
2. Current PVP- Ive no idea how to stop a proxy 3 gate - Do i blind make 3 gates myself in base and defend? If he went normal Gate core am doomed
Thanks
Proxy gates are much easier to stop now that the MSC is available early on. Stall and try not to lose any probes as you chrono out your MSC asap. The only way he'll be able to kill your before a MSC is if he manages to proxy inside your main, in which case that's just something you need to scout before it's too late.
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I lost the other day to someone who sieged my third with 5-6 swarm hosts, a handful of hydras and an overseer (which killed my obs). This was on daybreak and it was super hard to get out of. My composition was blink stalkers, one colossus, handful of sentries and zealots. He teched up to hive real quick got hella bases, and just whooped. My 4th was the base near the watch tower and it was even closer to all his stuff. After wave and wave of attacks i couldn't hold anymore.
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Which maps should I be vetoing?
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I'm sure this question was posted and answered a gazillion times but i can't find a good source so.. apologies in advance anyway im your basic silver nab and i want to learn some toss mechanics. Does any one know of a good low-threshold video that gives me a few tools for practicing? Thanks!
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So far in PvZ I go FFE into Stargate, build an Oracle to scout, maybe sniping a queen and for detection against Burrow. I then transition right into +2 Speedlot/Archon while building 4 Phoenix for Harassment, continued scouting and Insurance against initial Hydra or Muta-Switches while balancing Stargateproduction against what he is doing (more Phoenix against Air, Voids against Groundcompositions). I feel that Speedlot/Archon/Storm accompanied by some Air-Units deals much better against Swarmhost play than Stalker/Colossi based compositions because you can get out a lot more Units (more HP, more Dmg) faster to scotch Zerg before he can gather momentum.
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On March 19 2013 19:54 Xanatoss wrote:
So far in PvZ I go FFE into Stargate, build an Oracle to scout, maybe sniping a queen and for detection against Burrow. I then transition right into +2 Speedlot/Archon while building 4 Phoenix for Harassment, continued scouting and Insurance against initial Hydra or Muta-Switches while balancing Stargateproduction against what he is doing (more Phoenix against Air, Voids against Groundcompositions). I feel that Speedlot/Archon/Storm accompanied by some Air-Units deals much better against Swarmhost play than Stalker/Colossi based compositions because you can get out a lot more Units (more HP, more Dmg) faster to scotch Zerg before he can gather momentum.
I do something similar in PvZ except I skip the oracle (will try) and go into 5-6 phoenix earlier; what's your 3rd timing? i feel like its hard to get it out before 10 mins which I would very much prefer to be able to, but not sure!
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On March 19 2013 10:55 mophideus wrote:
MC's 4Gate Oracle build in PvT
9 Pylon
13 Gateway
2x Gas on ~15
16 Pylon
18 Cybernetics Core
Hide the next pylon in a corner of your base
Warpgate/Stalker (chronoboosted)
Mothership Core
Stalker
Stargate at hidden pylon >:D
Sentry
Start chronoboosting oracles out of the stargate. After the starting the first one build a Nexus at your natural
Keep building oracles and throw down 3 more gateways as you can afford them. MC has been going up to 4 Oracles.
Now from here the idea is to have 4 Oracles and a Mothership Core harassing the main while having gateway units consisting of mostly Stalkers hit the front. Split up Terrans units. If this build is unscouted or they don't have enough turrets and Vikings you will just shit on him. If you want you can also have the gateway and stargate units together and just attack the front using Timewarp to slow the units and let the Oracles melt everything. A lot of Terrans have been opening with widow mines, so be careful of those as they will 1 shot an oracle! Just remember to use the Oracles Detection ability to kill of any widow mines at ramps or in mineral lines so your attack goes smoothly. Also pretty much the whole time you want to be spending your chrono on probes!
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Courtesy of reddit user pourcupinetree3
Could you tell me in what game he used this build? I would like to see it on the MLG.tv vods, would make it clear.
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Italy12247 Posts
He went Stargate in pretty much every game and never proxied his stargate afaik; his go to build was 1gate stargate expand.
The units he got out of the stargate were pretty different, from 2 oracles into phoenix, to 4-5 oracles, to just fast phoenix.
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I know he used Stargate a lot, but I'm looking for the 1 base oracle all-in, not the expand build.
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On March 19 2013 20:25 Kinon wrote:
I know he used Stargate a lot, but I'm looking for the 1 base oracle all-in, not the expand build.
There is no 1base all-in.
He used 2base all-ins vs MVP (Game 1), Bomber (Game 3) and Innovation(Game 2) though vs Bomber he only made 1 Oracle which he used to clean up and bait some marines while going all-in with 4gates and basically 1base economy, while in the other 2 he went up to 5(4?) Oracles and 5gates with a better economy.
Game 2 vs MVP was also slightly all-inish, but different (he made and hid 4 Oracles which then stormed in and basically killed MVP).
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Italy12247 Posts
His 2base oracle bust was with 5 oracles.
Game 2 vs MVP was odd. His first oracle got spotted so he just hid 4 of them and then rolled over the marines. It was pretty funny actually.
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On March 19 2013 17:35 rsvp wrote:
VR doesn't hard counter 2 base swarm host, every time I run into 2 base swarm host it's been accompanied with queens and spores (i.e. nydus outside your base). Personally I don't go stargate against 2 base zerg because of the threat of swarm host or hydra, in which case I'll need colossus. Stargate or not, you definitely want to get colossus asap. If you don't scout a 3rd base but you can't verify what 2 base tech he's going for yet, I'd start a robo bay for colossus blindly - if he ends up doing something else like muta you can always cancel or just not make colo.
But say he opens 2 base muta and you went into Robo. How do you ever take a third from there? You can never leave your base and he can just expand wherever he wants right?
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On March 19 2013 15:19 TheRealFluid wrote:
Does anyone remember a somewhat old PvZ build on TL that consisted of FFE'ing into abusing early stalker gateway pressure to potentially deny a fast third? It was based off a build used by a KESPA protoss (i think Rain). Thanks.
It was something like FFE > 1 gate constant stalker chrono > fast third into X tech. I think it was Jambi?
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EPT
