EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 17
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On March 20 2013 18:54 Zealot Lord wrote: Need some pointers from high level Tosses - even if you haven't played much HOTS its okay because it applies just the same from WoL (but I never really figured it out properly). When a zerg 6~7 pools you on a FFE, I know the proper response such as putting a cannon in your own main mineral line, sacrificing the forge&pylon - but I really am not sure how to play it out from there. I read the original PvZ: The Guide regarding how many gates to get etc. depending if they got gas and such, but I still find it difficult retaking my natural against a good player (masters MMR) if he goes with quite a good amount of speedlings. Is there an optimum amount of sentries that you should be getting to be safe but yet also not set you back too far tech wise due to the heavy gas investment? Thanks in advance for the help, and would be even more grateful if there's a replay or two (none of those links in the guide were against a speedling contain follow up unless I missed it). I'm not sure why speedlings are in the picture when you're tyring to retake your natural after a 6-7 pool. Sounds like you're retaking your natural way too late. You should be chronoing out a few zealots and then taking your natural with those. Sometimes I even get 2 gateways so I can pressure the zerg a little and force out lings instead of drones. | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong748 Posts
On March 20 2013 19:58 rsvp wrote: I'm not sure why speedlings are in the picture when you're tyring to retake your natural after a 6-7 pool. Sounds like you're retaking your natural way too late. You should be chronoing out a few zealots and then taking your natural with those. Sometimes I even get 2 gateways so I can pressure the zerg a little and force out lings instead of drones. First of all, thanks for the reply (to all 3 of you)! Hmm, I may have retaken my natural too late I suppose. Unfortunately I don't have the replay anymore (accidentally deleted it.. T_T) but looking at the game history build order. He built 10 lings at the start, so I expanded after I got 2 zealots and a MSC at the 6min mark (is that too late?). For reference, he got his second hatch @ 5.20 and started ling speed @ 6.12 (he proceeded to make nothing but lings here on onwards, 20+ of them). I did scout his baneling nest @ 6.40 with my probe, so I reacted by dropping a gateway+forge at my main ramp (perhaps this was a mistake?) because I didn't think I could finish a proper wall on the natural with the map being akilon flats. Afterwards, basically what happened was that, even though I got off photon overcharge on my nexus at the natural, there was just too many lings/banelings to handle, especially since my zealots didn't have +1 attack. You said you sometimes get 2 gateways, so what triggers your decision on whether you get it or not? | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
There's no reason to do it if there's no speed ofc. | ||
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On March 20 2013 18:54 Zealot Lord wrote: Need some pointers from high level Tosses - even if you haven't played much HOTS its okay because it applies just the same from WoL (but I never really figured it out properly). When a zerg 6~7 pools you on a FFE, I know the proper response such as putting a cannon in your own main mineral line, sacrificing the forge&pylon - but I really am not sure how to play it out from there. I read the original PvZ: The Guide regarding how many gates to get etc. depending if they got gas and such, but I still find it difficult retaking my natural against a good player (masters MMR) if he goes with quite a good amount of speedlings. Is there an optimum amount of sentries that you should be getting to be safe but yet also not set you back too far tech wise due to the heavy gas investment? Thanks in advance for the help, and would be even more grateful if there's a replay or two (none of those links in the guide were against a speedling contain follow up unless I missed it). That is always a pretty ugly situation and depending on how good zergs followup is it can be very challenging. What I do is chronoing out 3 Zealots, then boost sentrys (to gather ressources for expo) and now with HotS build MSC. You want a lot of units asap to push his zerglings away while building no additional structures so you can plant them at your Natural to get a full Wall asap. Be active with your Probescout, to detect his followup Roaches/Speed/Banes/3rd/more Lings etc. I try to avoid the situation altogether though by going Highground-Forge on 2Player-Maps where I cant wall of my Front with 3 Buildings and scout just after planting the Nexus. So if I see Zerglings coming my way I cancel the Nexus build a cannon and transition the way I mentioned before. That way I dont lose 250 Minerals per se. This has the additional benefit that this opening is even stronger economicly than Forge First or Nexus First with Lowground-Pylon and scout at 9. So if he doesnt go early pool you got a small advantage over the usual FFE even more if he makes the "mistake" to still open Pool First while seeing no Probescout (keep in mind though that the first round of lings colides with the cannon build time on some maps if you went Nexus First, so you may be forced to pull enough probes to block/delay him and can send them to the just finished nexus afterwards). On 4 Player Maps with open Naturals (like the gone Entombed) I dont FFE at all and go for Gateway expand which got a lot stronger due to MSC-Recall to pressure with your inital Units and a potential Warpgate-Timing. | ||
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Kinon
Romania207 Posts
1) What units should I have by the time I get my third? Zealots+sentries? 2) I lost a few times against some mild roach/hydra pushes at around 10-12 min mark, simply because I don't know what kind of units to have then. Any ideas? 3) What would be some good benchmarks for 10 minutes, for ffe-->stargate? I'm talking mainly about how many works, what tech, upgrades etc. 4) I tried doing some 3 base pushes with the remainder of my air units+ a mix of ground units. In platinum league it works pretty decent, but I'm sure I will get stomped by higher level players. What's a good mix of units for a 3 base push(mainly against roach hydra, that's what I'm playing a lot)? 5) The vods/replays from Protoss vs zerg: the guide aren't quite accurate anymore, I would appreciate if anyone posted a recent replay so I can study it. Thanks in advance. | ||
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blagoonga123
United States2068 Posts
qq time to experiment with builds n see what's good | ||
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TheHansBecker
United States117 Posts
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nunnner
Canada26 Posts
Really enjoy the strategy talk on here, especially while bored at work. I'm in diamond in HotS, though I'm probably a Plat player, was top gold in WoL and haven't been playing that long. Went from Silver to Diamond in like 6 games in HotS, it was shocking. Needless to say, in diamond I'm losing a lot, standard mechanics/macro issues I'm working on. I've lost a lot in PvZ to 2-base bangling busts while I'm doing an FFE, something that was never executed very well in silver and gold against me. I'm curious as to how this is usually handled. Is it better to go FFE - Stargate or FFE - 4 gates +1 (my standard from WoL) with Zealots and Sentries? Or something completely different. I haven't been scouting this well enough, usually if I see the early gas I assume 2-base roach (another thing for me to work on). Cheers | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
On March 21 2013 01:02 Kinon wrote: I started opening Stargate in PvZ for the first time and have a few problems. 1) What units should I have by the time I get my third? Zealots+sentries? 2) I lost a few times against some mild roach/hydra pushes at around 10-12 min mark, simply because I don't know what kind of units to have then. Any ideas? 3) What would be some good benchmarks for 10 minutes, for ffe-->stargate? I'm talking mainly about how many works, what tech, upgrades etc. 4) I tried doing some 3 base pushes with the remainder of my air units+ a mix of ground units. In platinum league it works pretty decent, but I'm sure I will get stomped by higher level players. What's a good mix of units for a 3 base push(mainly against roach hydra, that's what I'm playing a lot)? 5) The vods/replays from Protoss vs zerg: the guide aren't quite accurate anymore, I would appreciate if anyone posted a recent replay so I can study it. Thanks in advance. Personally I go stargate as soon as I can and pump 2 oracles that i use for harassing and a bit of scouting ( generally I could kill a queen even if he has an 1 spore in place, and if he doesn't you can really get him a bit behind ) + detection in case of anything. After that i go into 4 gateways+2nd stargate and build voidrays and the occasional zealot while getting my 3rd. Generally i find that zealot/vr is enough to kill any roach ling and hydra ling push but I must admit i don't think I came up against any good mid-game roach/hydra push until now. After I do said thing I just try to get myself a few more sg and a fb while constantly pumping vr and than transition into carrier ( as long as I don't see mutas, in which case i obviously go for phoenixes as soon as my oracle/phoenix scout sees the spire ). I find that Vr carrier is pretty much best thing i can have atm, maybe a few added tempest but mostly vr carriers are winning the day for me right now. Up until im maxed air i just keep a few zealots in case he tries something like full no hydra attack with no longs/corruptors/roaches. I have to say I won most pvz like this ( 550 points master league right now ) and it seems pretty silly, but I might have just played vs really bad opponents. | ||
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LeafBlower
United States115 Posts
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RageOverdose
United States690 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:58 Aterons_toss wrote: Personally I go stargate as soon as I can and pump 2 oracles that i use for harassing and a bit of scouting ( generally I could kill a queen even if he has an 1 spore in place, and if he doesn't you can really get him a bit behind ) + detection in case of anything. After that i go into 4 gateways+2nd stargate and build voidrays and the occasional zealot while getting my 3rd. Generally i find that zealot/vr is enough to kill any roach ling and hydra ling push but I must admit i don't think I came up against any good mid-game roach/hydra push until now. After I do said thing I just try to get myself a few more sg and a fb while constantly pumping vr and than transition into carrier ( as long as I don't see mutas, in which case i obviously go for phoenixes as soon as my oracle/phoenix scout sees the spire ). I find that Vr carrier is pretty much best thing i can have atm, maybe a few added tempest but mostly vr carriers are winning the day for me right now. Up until im maxed air i just keep a few zealots in case he tries something like full no hydra attack with no longs/corruptors/roaches. I have to say I won most pvz like this ( 550 points master league right now ) and it seems pretty silly, but I might have just played vs really bad opponents. Could you put up some replays of this? I'd love to see what you're doing because I'm totally lost in PvZ right now. | ||
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Zechs06
Canada1 Post
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
On March 21 2013 04:13 RageOverdose wrote: Could you put up some replays of this? I'd love to see what you're doing because I'm totally lost in PvZ right now. I have around 30 reps vs Z to search in and not very much time: I manged to come up with this 3: http://drop.sc/311667 http://drop.sc/311668 http://drop.sc/311705 They showcase the opening pretty well but in 1 of them he goes muta so i go phoenix after some vr, in another i did ( for some reason which I don't remember ) colossus instead of carrier and it was also an earlier match so opponent might be of lower level than my current ranking, and the other one has me going tempest instead of carrier and failing to expand to 4th thus failing... but I do think if I had gone carrier I would have one. So yeah, they showcase the opening and the vr part but non reached the actual carriers :./ | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
I open up with 5Phoenixes and transition into fast Colossi+4 Gates to take my third with MsC and then get VoidRays and Colossi or Templar vs Vipers. (the first Colossus is out at like minute 10 when I start to take my third) It is totally awesome and I can destroy almost any Zerg on the planet as long as they play some roach or hydra based style. However, due to the high number of queens in the early game I only get a few Overlord kills and maybe a single Queen. Then, my Colossi still seem to be too late to deal with mass SH play. I tried a lot of stuff, getting VRs. Getting a second Robo. Getting a WP and harassing. No matter what I eventually die to mass free units, Observers get killed by queens, units get destroyed by Locust + Queens with mass transfuses. I really need help, I just NEVER win a single game against this. Oh and please, PLEASE only answer if you are GM or like high master EU. The only idea I have is to try and turtle and as soon as I get overwhelmed just take my whole army and basetrade.. Does that even work vs Zerg with free units? | ||
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probeater
124 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Is this an effective way to play Protoss vs Zerg! Gateway opening into gas, zealot/stalker/mscore, poke zerg Fast nexus. And 4-6gateways now with 2gas, well it varies i have no 100% build. And now you move out again with mscore In general, is this effective? He needs to build units but do he get way ahead in economi to high? I dont wanna go all-in Feel free to talk about agressive style protoss with the new mscore, would be very fun if it worked out to be agressive in a standard way, not all-in | ||
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