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On March 21 2013 05:22 rEalGuapo wrote:
So, I lose almost every single game to Queens+Swarm Host play.
I open up with 5Phoenixes and transition into fast Colossi+4 Gates to take my third with MsC and then get VoidRays and Colossi or Templar vs Vipers. (the first Colossus is out at like minute 10 when I start to take my third)
It is totally awesome and I can destroy almost any Zerg on the planet as long as they play some roach or hydra based style.
However, due to the high number of queens in the early game I only get a few Overlord kills and maybe a single Queen.
Then, my Colossi still seem to be too late to deal with mass SH play.
I tried a lot of stuff, getting VRs. Getting a second Robo. Getting a WP and harassing. No matter what I eventually die to mass free units, Observers get killed by queens, units get destroyed by Locust + Queens with mass transfuses.
I really need help, I just NEVER win a single game against this.
Oh and please, PLEASE only answer if you are GM or like high master EU.
The only idea I have is to try and turtle and as soon as I get overwhelmed just take my whole army and basetrade.. Does that even work vs Zerg with free units?
I'm assuming you're going up against 3 base swarm host (if it's swarm host off of 2 base then it's very difficult to win if you open stargate). IMO you need a lot of colossus, I know you said you tried a second robo but maybe you're not getting it fast enough?
On March 21 2013 04:10 LeafBlower wrote:
Do you guys have any thoughts on how to handle big 3-4 base hydra/corruptor pushes? i always ffe --> phoenixes, and I made 3 collosus in response to scouting the hydra den. I saw him make the spire shortly after as well, but I thought i'd be able to blink and take out his corruptors while my collosus tear up the hydras. However, this zerg just made a low amount of hydras, around 18 corruptors, and then pushed. He sacced the corruptors for my collosus, then my army melted to the hydras. If I scout hydra/spire on 3 bases should i just start making voids along with my collosus faster or maybe go to storm really quickly?
It's difficult to say without a replay but it sounds like you just need better army control and management. Forcefields are key here. You need to be able to forcefield off the ground troops, then focus fire the corruptors. Also if he really has something like 18 corruptors and you only have 3 colossus, then you may just be getting out macroed, If the disparity is really that big and you're even on macro, you should be able to ignore the corruptors and just beat the ground with blink/FF. I don't think earlier voids or storm is the answer, it's difficult to afford all of that before late game while still maintaining a good number of colossus, stalkers, and sentries.
On March 21 2013 01:02 Kinon wrote:
I started opening Stargate in PvZ for the first time and have a few problems.
1) What units should I have by the time I get my third? Zealots+sentries?
2) I lost a few times against some mild roach/hydra pushes at around 10-12 min mark, simply because I don't know what kind of units to have then. Any ideas?
3) What would be some good benchmarks for 10 minutes, for ffe-->stargate? I'm talking mainly about how many works, what tech, upgrades etc.
4) I tried doing some 3 base pushes with the remainder of my air units+ a mix of ground units. In platinum league it works pretty decent, but I'm sure I will get stomped by higher level players. What's a good mix of units for a 3 base push(mainly against roach hydra, that's what I'm playing a lot)?
5) The vods/replays from Protoss vs zerg: the guide aren't quite accurate anymore, I would appreciate if anyone posted a recent replay so I can study it.
Thanks in advance.
1. Yep, zealot/sentry and your first 1 or 2 immortals.
2. Against earlier roach/hydra pushes you can stop them with just stalker/sentry/immortal, as long as you have good FF. When the numbers get bigger you should have colossus by then. I highly recommend going double robo for more/faster colossus to stop those attacks on your 3rd.
3. Sorry I don't know off the top of my head.
4. When you go for pushes off of 3 bases you're essentially attacking when you're maxed (you move out a bit before your maxed to secure your 4th behind you and set up proxy pylons, etc. - by the time you engage you should be maxed or near maxed). You shouldn't attack before you're maxed unless the the zerg makes a failed attack and you think you can win immediately. So in other words, 4+ colossus, a lot of stalkers, some sentries, and leftover immortal/zealots for your first wave. As the game progresses you can add things like voids and HTs to your army.
5. As far as a standard game goes with the toss going FFE -> stargate > robo > 3rd and the zerg going 3 base -> roach -> whatever, not much has changed since WoL. A lot of the vods/replays from the guide should still be relevant. The biggest difference is that hydra/roach is more common instead of roach/infestor, but colossus play is good against both of those options (as well as other new HoTS builds like swarm hosts).
On March 20 2013 21:30 Zealot Lord wrote:
First of all, thanks for the reply (to all 3 of you)! Hmm, I may have retaken my natural too late I suppose.
Unfortunately I don't have the replay anymore (accidentally deleted it.. T_T) but looking at the game history build order. He built 10 lings at the start, so I expanded after I got 2 zealots and a MSC at the 6min mark (is that too late?). For reference, he got his second hatch @ 5.20 and started ling speed @ 6.12 (he proceeded to make nothing but lings here on onwards, 20+ of them). I did scout his baneling nest @ 6.40 with my probe, so I reacted by dropping a gateway+forge at my main ramp (perhaps this was a mistake?) because I didn't think I could finish a proper wall on the natural with the map being akilon flats. Afterwards, basically what happened was that, even though I got off photon overcharge on my nexus at the natural, there was just too many lings/banelings to handle, especially since my zealots didn't have +1 attack.
You said you sometimes get 2 gateways, so what triggers your decision on whether you get it or not?
I start my gas before expo but I don't start my cy core until after I put down my nexus. That way I can use it as part of my wall (which you should quickly rebuild). Use cannons/zealots to defend.
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3 base mech pushes seem to give me a lot of trouble...idk what composition to go for/upgrades/etc
it's hellbats/tanks/thor/raven/viking
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I would like to know if someone can explain to be how grubby deals with swarmhosts? I've copied his build and it's 2zealots+msc into 4gate pressure but i cannot grasp when i should add robo and what to look after.
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On March 21 2013 07:06 rsvp wrote:
1) What units should I have by the time I get my third? Zealots+sentries?
1. Yep, zealot/sentry and your first 1 or 2 immortals.
A Protoss isn't supposed to get any stalkers? I mean, if that's true that explains a lot but when I do the stargate/robo/4gate expansion build I never have enough gas, but I am also making a lot stalker too.
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Italy12246 Posts
You cut stalkers for a while; usually people secure their third with a couple of rounds of zealot/sentry and then go into stalker production.
Also there should be benchmarks in the pvz guide.
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On March 21 2013 04:55 Aterons_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 04:13 RageOverdose wrote:On March 21 2013 03:58 Aterons_toss wrote:On March 21 2013 01:02 Kinon wrote:
I started opening Stargate in PvZ for the first time and have a few problems.
1) What units should I have by the time I get my third? Zealots+sentries?
2) I lost a few times against some mild roach/hydra pushes at around 10-12 min mark, simply because I don't know what kind of units to have then. Any ideas?
3) What would be some good benchmarks for 10 minutes, for ffe-->stargate? I'm talking mainly about how many works, what tech, upgrades etc.
4) I tried doing some 3 base pushes with the remainder of my air units+ a mix of ground units. In platinum league it works pretty decent, but I'm sure I will get stomped by higher level players. What's a good mix of units for a 3 base push(mainly against roach hydra, that's what I'm playing a lot)?
5) The vods/replays from Protoss vs zerg: the guide aren't quite accurate anymore, I would appreciate if anyone posted a recent replay so I can study it.
Thanks in advance. Personally I go stargate as soon as I can and pump 2 oracles that i use for harassing and a bit of scouting ( generally I could kill a queen even if he has an 1 spore in place, and if he doesn't you can really get him a bit behind ) + detection in case of anything. After that i go into 4 gateways+2nd stargate and build voidrays and the occasional zealot while getting my 3rd. Generally i find that zealot/vr is enough to kill any roach ling and hydra ling push but I must admit i don't think I came up against any good mid-game roach/hydra push until now. After I do said thing I just try to get myself a few more sg and a fb while constantly pumping vr and than transition into carrier ( as long as I don't see mutas, in which case i obviously go for phoenixes as soon as my oracle/phoenix scout sees the spire ). I find that Vr carrier is pretty much best thing i can have atm, maybe a few added tempest but mostly vr carriers are winning the day for me right now. Up until im maxed air i just keep a few zealots in case he tries something like full no hydra attack with no longs/corruptors/roaches. I have to say I won most pvz like this ( 550 points master league right now ) and it seems pretty silly, but I might have just played vs really bad opponents. Could you put up some replays of this? I'd love to see what you're doing because I'm totally lost in PvZ right now. I have around 30 reps vs Z to search in and not very much time: I manged to come up with this 3: http://drop.sc/311667http://drop.sc/311668http://drop.sc/311705They showcase the opening pretty well but in 1 of them he goes muta so i go phoenix after some vr, in another i did ( for some reason which I don't remember ) colossus instead of carrier and it was also an earlier match so opponent might be of lower level than my current ranking, and the other one has me going tempest instead of carrier and failing to expand to 4th thus failing... but I do think if I had gone carrier I would have one. So yeah, they showcase the opening and the vr part but non reached the actual carriers :./
Thanks for posting reps! I wish more people would do that  I've been playing a similar style to you but instead of getting a fairly early 3rd like you do I go for a warpgate + stargate timing to harass their 3rd instead. I like your idea much better though, it's a safer play.
Do you have any more replays of holding off roach/hydra attacks on your 3rd? That is what I have the most trouble with. I know that the one rep where you went colossus your opponent did that, but you were ahead by quite a bit and his army seemed really small for some reason.
Also, what's the primary purpose of oracle? The damage you do with them in all 3 games is questionable, have you tried skipping oracle and going straight for VR?
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So it's been a long time since I've played last game was in season 2 sometime. I just have one major question. From reading it sounds like the 4 gate doesn't exist anymore in pvp and I'm wondering why? What has changed? I never 4 gated but most of my pvp builds were built around stopping a 4 gate.
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On March 21 2013 09:50 Steeped wrote:
So it's been a long time since I've played last game was in season 2 sometime. I just have one major question. From reading it sounds like the 4 gate doesn't exist anymore in pvp and I'm wondering why? What has changed? I never 4 gated but most of my pvp builds were built around stopping a 4 gate.
MSC + pylons no longer warp up cliffs. Basically you have to get your pylons inside his base, and this brings your probe in range of his stalkers and MSC.
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On March 21 2013 09:56 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 09:50 Steeped wrote:
So it's been a long time since I've played last game was in season 2 sometime. I just have one major question. From reading it sounds like the 4 gate doesn't exist anymore in pvp and I'm wondering why? What has changed? I never 4 gated but most of my pvp builds were built around stopping a 4 gate. MSC + pylons no longer warp up cliffs. Basically you have to get your pylons inside his base, and this brings your probe in range of his stalkers and MSC.
Ah ok didnt know about the pylon thing thanks, what's popular in pvp now? Stargate play?
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What's the optimal composition vs swarm host+hydra+viper? Practice partner of mine does it all the time and basically opens hydra off 3 base, transitions to swarm host, and then techs to hive while I'm contained and proceeds to get vipers. This kinda rapes the regular stalker+colossus+templar ball because of abducts and blinding cloud rendering my stalkers near useless, so I tried doing colossi+templar+voidray and that gets kinda crushed as well. Locust dps just seems so high, it's actually higher than Hydras which seems kinda crazy to me and it feels really hard to keep pressure off my buildings.
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On March 21 2013 10:01 Steeped wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 09:56 ThaReckoning wrote:On March 21 2013 09:50 Steeped wrote:
So it's been a long time since I've played last game was in season 2 sometime. I just have one major question. From reading it sounds like the 4 gate doesn't exist anymore in pvp and I'm wondering why? What has changed? I never 4 gated but most of my pvp builds were built around stopping a 4 gate. MSC + pylons no longer warp up cliffs. Basically you have to get your pylons inside his base, and this brings your probe in range of his stalkers and MSC. Ah ok didnt know about the pylon thing thanks, what's popular in pvp now? Stargate play?
I see a lot of SG/DT, and aggressive 2 gate + MSC builds.
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On March 21 2013 10:01 Drowsy wrote:
What's the optimal composition vs swarm host+hydra+viper? Practice partner of mine does it all the time and basically opens hydra off 3 base, transitions to swarm host, and then techs to hive while I'm contained and proceeds to get vipers. This kinda rapes the regular stalker+colossus+templar ball because of abducts and blinding cloud rendering my stalkers near useless, so I tried doing colossi+templar+voidray and that gets kinda crushed as well. Locust dps just seems so high, it's actually higher than Hydras which seems kinda crazy to me and it feels really hard to keep pressure off my buildings.
I'd have to see a replay, that's a ton of gas for the zerg.
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On March 21 2013 10:01 Drowsy wrote:
What's the optimal composition vs swarm host+hydra+viper? Practice partner of mine does it all the time and basically opens hydra off 3 base, transitions to swarm host, and then techs to hive while I'm contained and proceeds to get vipers. This kinda rapes the regular stalker+colossus+templar ball because of abducts and blinding cloud rendering my stalkers near useless, so I tried doing colossi+templar+voidray and that gets kinda crushed as well. Locust dps just seems so high, it's actually higher than Hydras which seems kinda crazy to me and it feels really hard to keep pressure off my buildings.
I haven't played against this yet, but theoretically with should be able to feedback his viper just as easily as your zerg opponent can blinding cloud or abduct.
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Does anyone have a solid macro 1gate fe build order for PvZ? It was the great hope for the MSC in PvZ, but i didn't find/see any in use by any programer (not that i usually watch tons of vods, T_T)
I'd love to have something different to do instead of the old boring FFE in Master's PvZ
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On March 21 2013 12:02 Skirmjan wrote:
Does anyone have a solid macro 1gate fe build order for PvZ? It was the great hope for the MSC in PvZ, but i didn't find/see any in use by any programer (not that i usually watch tons of vods, T_T)
I'd love to have something different to do instead of the old boring FFE in Master's PvZ
9 pylon
13 gate
14 gas
17 pylon
18 cyber
20 zealot
23 pylon on low ground
24 stalker
24/25 second gas
28 second stalker
30 nexus on low ground
30 two gates to wall of well pressuring with the units you made early
30 after gates make a sentry and a MSC
now you just add another pylon and a forge, as long as he didnt rush ling speed you can force a lot of lings and not die.
usually when wg finished i get 3 sentries for defending the eventual counter aggression and use them to scout with hallu and choose my tech path from there.
gl hf
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On March 21 2013 04:55 Aterons_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 04:13 RageOverdose wrote:On March 21 2013 03:58 Aterons_toss wrote:On March 21 2013 01:02 Kinon wrote:
I started opening Stargate in PvZ for the first time and have a few problems.
1) What units should I have by the time I get my third? Zealots+sentries?
2) I lost a few times against some mild roach/hydra pushes at around 10-12 min mark, simply because I don't know what kind of units to have then. Any ideas?
3) What would be some good benchmarks for 10 minutes, for ffe-->stargate? I'm talking mainly about how many works, what tech, upgrades etc.
4) I tried doing some 3 base pushes with the remainder of my air units+ a mix of ground units. In platinum league it works pretty decent, but I'm sure I will get stomped by higher level players. What's a good mix of units for a 3 base push(mainly against roach hydra, that's what I'm playing a lot)?
5) The vods/replays from Protoss vs zerg: the guide aren't quite accurate anymore, I would appreciate if anyone posted a recent replay so I can study it.
Thanks in advance. Personally I go stargate as soon as I can and pump 2 oracles that i use for harassing and a bit of scouting ( generally I could kill a queen even if he has an 1 spore in place, and if he doesn't you can really get him a bit behind ) + detection in case of anything. After that i go into 4 gateways+2nd stargate and build voidrays and the occasional zealot while getting my 3rd. Generally i find that zealot/vr is enough to kill any roach ling and hydra ling push but I must admit i don't think I came up against any good mid-game roach/hydra push until now. After I do said thing I just try to get myself a few more sg and a fb while constantly pumping vr and than transition into carrier ( as long as I don't see mutas, in which case i obviously go for phoenixes as soon as my oracle/phoenix scout sees the spire ). I find that Vr carrier is pretty much best thing i can have atm, maybe a few added tempest but mostly vr carriers are winning the day for me right now. Up until im maxed air i just keep a few zealots in case he tries something like full no hydra attack with no longs/corruptors/roaches. I have to say I won most pvz like this ( 550 points master league right now ) and it seems pretty silly, but I might have just played vs really bad opponents. Could you put up some replays of this? I'd love to see what you're doing because I'm totally lost in PvZ right now. I have around 30 reps vs Z to search in and not very much time: I manged to come up with this 3: http://drop.sc/311667http://drop.sc/311668http://drop.sc/311705They showcase the opening pretty well but in 1 of them he goes muta so i go phoenix after some vr, in another i did ( for some reason which I don't remember ) colossus instead of carrier and it was also an earlier match so opponent might be of lower level than my current ranking, and the other one has me going tempest instead of carrier and failing to expand to 4th thus failing... but I do think if I had gone carrier I would have one. So yeah, they showcase the opening and the vr part but non reached the actual carriers :./
Thanks, I really appreciate those replays. I've been having a difficult time finding a solid opener and my own experimentation just isn't working. Not that I'm really good enough for that but this should help me out PvZ a lot.
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any of you got a replay vs 2 base widow mine play, one base widow mine all in or drop play?
I'm having trouble playing PvT right now.
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Here is a good opening off of maps with big ramps and if they get slow speed.
http://drop.sc/311849
I put on some early pressure --> stargate. I always get oracles now and not phoenixes just because they can be used against ground units so i can fight for map. I expand pretty early and just get my probe count up, keep an eye on his tech and try to get a good comp. I can definitely work on this, i need to be supply blocked at lot less and be able to warp in structures/take care of home while microing. Any thoughts/criticisms on this one??
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On March 21 2013 12:02 Skirmjan wrote:
Does anyone have a solid macro 1gate fe build order for PvZ? It was the great hope for the MSC in PvZ, but i didn't find/see any in use by any programer (not that i usually watch tons of vods, T_T)
I'd love to have something different to do instead of the old boring FFE in Master's PvZ
I hate to just toot my own horn but....
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395527
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Northern Ireland25079 Posts
On March 21 2013 10:01 Drowsy wrote:
What's the optimal composition vs swarm host+hydra+viper? Practice partner of mine does it all the time and basically opens hydra off 3 base, transitions to swarm host, and then techs to hive while I'm contained and proceeds to get vipers. This kinda rapes the regular stalker+colossus+templar ball because of abducts and blinding cloud rendering my stalkers near useless, so I tried doing colossi+templar+voidray and that gets kinda crushed as well. Locust dps just seems so high, it's actually higher than Hydras which seems kinda crazy to me and it feels really hard to keep pressure off my buildings.
I haven't really figured out a reliable counter-composition to this that I can get out in time. If I suspect that kind of path is being pursued I make sure I rush storm instead of Collosi for the reasons you outlined. Templar have certain advantages, their AoE is a bit more reliable because they're harder physically to abduct due to their size, they have feedback and there tends to be more of them.
Really it's a game of positioning and flanking. I've had some success with rushing a more chargelot archon/templar mix with sprinkling of immortals and sentries and hitting before that composition is super strong, but I don't think it's a reliable approach.
My only other semi-consistent strat is continually delaying the engagement until his swarm hosts aren't covered by the hydras, and sending my phoenixes to their likely deaths to lift the Hosts. From my limited experience, the problems with that army is that the DPS is massive once the locusts get in range of your stuff, the hydras still pack a big punch but their numbers thin really quickly if you hit a few storms. If he's not terrible he'll snipe your observers so I try to use hallucinations to get that kind of positional information.
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EPT
