EPTReally hard build to pull off i've always fucked it up every time i tried it lol.
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 16
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Really hard build to pull off i've always fucked it up every time i tried it lol. | ||
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
On March 20 2013 00:59 Teoita wrote: JANGBI goddamn it. You kids aren't allowed to misspell that! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2TvM5K9tt4 Really hard build to pull off i've always fucked it up every time i tried it lol. Yeah, I tried it a bit back in WoL as well, really tough stuff to pull off. I abandoned it and that build Parting used to do, the fast 3 base into HT vs terran. | ||
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lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
On March 20 2013 01:25 lorestarcraft wrote: What to do against Speed hydra into swarm hosts? Like, when zerg get a decent number of both by 14 minutes off of 3 bases? It seems pretty safe against all-ins, but I really would like to see how anyone actually plays a macro game against this. It seems like standard FFE into 4g robo + sg and taking a third would do decently well at this, as you have a few colossi out by then. | ||
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Ncinerate
172 Posts
On March 19 2013 20:25 Kinon wrote: I know he used Stargate a lot, but I'm looking for the 1 base oracle all-in, not the expand build. http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/100065-mc-vs-bomber-game-3-quarterfinals-mlg-dallas-2013 There's the VOD. A few things to note... Bomber scouted a gasless expo terran build @ 4:00 and pretty much immediately dropped a stargate and started boosting out a MSC. This build was an all-in as it was played, he pegged his supply at 49/50 and cut probes to 23 with no real intent of going further in the game. That said, I don't think it was what MC initially intended to do, I think this was SPECIFICALLY his response to gasless terran expo play. Up until the scout the build was rather normal - and I imagine MC has a variation if he sees T go with a less greedy build. In short, his flawless victory was a build order roflstomp. I think it's worth remembering this switch because eventually you'll run into a T doing a gasless expo build, and it's a pretty damn strong response. These were the notes I took off it: 9 pylon @ 49 sec 2 chronos on nexus 13 gateway @ 1:40 15 assim @ 2:05 15 assim @ 2:14 chrono nexus 16 pylon @ 2:26 18 cyber core @ 2:52 scout probe @ 2:56 (use cyber core probe) 20 pylon @ 3:26 21 warpgate @ 3:42 21 stalker @ 3:44 Here's where he scouts the gasless expo. He quickly cuts probes and launches into his stargate play. 24 stargate @ 4:07 24 msc @ 4:19 26 stalker @ 4:30 probe - NO MORE PROBES oracle @ 5:07 3 gateways forward pylon # 5:36 35 oracle #2 @ 6:01 6:44 first warpin 7:20 second warpin probe count = 23 49/50 He hit the enemy base with 2 oracles, 9 stalkers, and a MSC @ around the 7:20 range, it was pretty strong and has virtually no room for error. His build was damn tight in terms of timing. I have a really hard time replicating it at my considerably lower skill level  .And I was fiddling around a bit with a similar build using 1 oracle/MSC and a slightly faster front-gate assault: 9/10 pylon 10/18 Chrono Boost Nexus Chrono Boost Nexus 13/18 assimilator (1:35) 14/18 gateway (1:52) 2:05 3 probes to gas Chrono Boost Nexus 17/ 18 Pylon 17/ 18 assimilator (2:35) 18/26 cyber core (2:58) send scouting probe now, don't lose it, it needs to build your forward pylon later 19/ 26 Chrono Boost Nexus 3:00 3 probes to gas HALT ALL PROBE PRODUCTION AT 21 PROBES! 21/26 stalker (3:48) 23/26 research warpgate 23/26 build stargate (3:50) 23/26 build mothership core (4:10) (rally toward enemy base) 25/ 26 pylon Chrono Boost Nexus 25/26 gateway (4:28) 25/34 gateway (4:43) 25/34 Oracle (5:00) (rally toward enemy base) CHRONOBOOST stargate 28/34 stalker (5:10) 30/34 pylon (at a forward position, this is your advance pylon) 30/34 stalker (5:33) Oracle completes here - you want to rally it to enemy base and poke with it. Use MSC time warp/Oracle to kill marine force if it's manageable (6-8 marines). Otherwise, go for a quick poke on scvs using MSC to delay response. Remember to turn OFF the oracle attack after you pull back, to conserve energy. Don't lose the oracle, you need it for the push. 32/42 stalker (5:48) 34/42 stalker (5:55) CHRONOBOOST BOTH GATEWAYS, rally to forward pylon Warpgate transforms @ 6:30 first wave of warps @ 6:40 Attack with 8 stalkers 1 oracle 1 msc @ around 6:50-7:00. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On March 19 2013 21:22 Bahamuth wrote: But say he opens 2 base muta and you went into Robo. How do you ever take a third from there? You can never leave your base and he can just expand wherever he wants right? The question of whether phoenix or blink/storm is the best response to mutas now is still something I'm trying to answer. The current consensus seems to be that phoenix is better since using storms as base defense is less effective now that mutas can regen quicker. However, I still dislike phoenix as a reactive response because it's difficult to match muta numbers if you don't scout the spire quickly, plus the zerg can easily tech switch back to ground once you get a lot of phoenix up. Blink/ht still works for me, and while mutas are definitely tougher to fight against than before, the changes to mutas also make it tougher to fight with phoenixes as well (phoenix did get +1 range but the speed increase of mutas still make that micro war just as challenging). Also, the MSC really helps the blink/ht play, both in terms of defending early on, and also mid-late game with mass recall - you can now go snipe an expo, then mass recall back to defend the muta counter. On March 19 2013 20:02 LEEKsc wrote: I do something similar in PvZ except I skip the oracle (will try) and go into 5-6 phoenix earlier; what's your 3rd timing? i feel like its hard to get it out before 10 mins which I would very much prefer to be able to, but not sure! I'm starting to really like the stargate into gateway/no-colo play in PvZ. While phoenix into chargelot/archon can work, it gets shut down pretty hard by heavy roach play. My preference now is to skip the phoenixes entirely, and go straight for voids to build up that void ray count so I'll have enough to deal with roaches (of course, if I scout mutas, then I'll make phoenix instead). Also, I go for storm pretty quickly as a counter to hydras and I don't make any pre-emptive archons. As for 3rd timing with this build, feel free to gamble a 3rd early on, but don't be worried if you can't get it up until 12-14 minutes in. The strength of this build is to make cost effective trades, losing only zealots but keeping your air and ht/archon alive so that your army gets bigger and bigger. | ||
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InkCoder
United States10 Posts
I am trying to get back into SC2 after 2 years and so far I can tell I have no clue what to build and when? Are there any just very basic and standard builds in HoTs I should learn until I get better at mechanics and timings? | ||
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Vaporak
70 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On March 20 2013 08:32 Vaporak wrote: So how does PvP work in HotS? I've started laddering again with the expansion and it just doesn't make sense anymore. Stargate -> voidray openings seems to beat just about everything, except gateway aggression with Mothership Core which it dies to. Stargate openers may have more of an edge now against robo openers than before, but there are still a variety of builds that are good against them. Blink is now stronger than before even with the increased 30 second research time since now you don't need obs to blink up (hallucinate or MSC), gateway expand builds are now more popular and viable due to MSC, and DT builds are also good - both DT expand, and DT 4 gate all-in (oracles are NOT a counter to DT builds since the oracle + troops to kill DT can't be in 2 places at once against a DT expand, and stargate units don't provide enough firepower against zealots + archon in a DT all-in). In terms of mid-game, chargelot/blink/archon/storm does great against chargelot/immo/void composition. See MC vs Rain on Akilon from the most recent MLG for an example. | ||
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tEEYOUNEE
Canada13 Posts
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ThinkingsHard
United States3 Posts
Do I need to 4gate just to defend against their 4 gate? (Since I have overcharge that wouldn't be able to beat me with just a 4gate, as I'd end up overwhelming their numbers) Should I keep trying to stargate and just abandon the attempt to expand, and spend that 400 minerals on another gateway or two, and only move to 2base once I have more units and can defend the nexus?? I've been trying to get it up ASAP so I can overcharge it, but it gets up when I have like 77 energy. PvZ. I am inconsistent here. I want to go stargate, however if I go voids they get crushed, last game I went everything... at once... because I was just... trying to get rid of my horrible macro minerals, and got a robo and a stargate, then a twilight... lol.. I was researching storm, thermal lance, and getting a collosus as I was also pushing out pheonix (I know this is too much off of the 2 bases I was on... I couldn't decide what I wanted to go... so... I went everything. I'm feeling like getting some pheonix, 5-6, and getting about 5 warpgates, and hitting him with pheonix and zealots as I tech and get my third. PvT I'm solid. I've only lost 1 match using my strategy, and he went 1 base siege tanks raven banshee mass marines, medivacs and mines.... and he got a healthy number of these before I could get out enough to deal with it, I held off his attack, but his siege on me crushed me. I go 9 Pylon 13 Gate 14 Gas 16 Gas 16 Pylon 18 Cyber 20 Pylon @100% Cyber - MSC, Stalker, WG @150 gas Stargate @400 minerals Nexus Pylon Stalker Stalker Oracle x 4 And then I just have fun from there, get 3-4 gateways, get minerals but not gas on the expansion. Attack him when I have 7 stalkers 1 or 2 sentries, 4 zealots and at least 3 oracles, perferably more. I can crush him mineral line with the 4 oracles, and those 4 oracles melt the marines he uses to defend, while he pulls all those marines, I move up the ramp with what I have. Just keep warping in, add gases to natural just in case he can defend. | ||
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
On March 17 2013 18:35 rsvp wrote: Are you talking about mid game or late game? I usually go pure ground and then switch to pure air. In the mid game, my army consists of mostly immortals and colossus, widow mines aren't really effective against robo units. In late game WoL, I was going pure carriers, and I don't think widow mines or thors are good against that either. Now my skytoss has even more flexibility and I might do a slower and safer transition by adding in voids and eventually tempests, and I don't see WM and thors being good against those either as long as you semi spread out your voids. IMO the MSC has strengthened the FFE a lot more rather than the gateway expand, for reasons I mentioned earlier. You keep talking about recall, but I just don't see it being a game changer. If you get into a position where you're forced to use recall, then chances are you're at a big disadvantage in the game. Sure if you didn't have recall you would have instantly lost, but the game is still not going in your favor. I pretty much have 0 experience with gateway expands in HoTS so I could be wrong, feel free to share replays of either yourself or others if you have any. http://drop.sc/311528 This is the style of play I'm talking about. Do you think this could be worked into some sort of timing attack that, instead of denying the zerg's third, does serious damage if they don't prepare for it? | ||
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Gessen
United States19 Posts
Edit** Here is the first time I faced it. Didn't really handle it well but you can see the zergs style. I've faced it several times since and run into trouble with them rolling in with mutas. I get enough phoenix to deal with mutas but can't get a 3rd because of the ling ground army. http://drop.sc/311550 | ||
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
On March 20 2013 16:04 Gessen wrote: Hey All, I'm a Diamond NA toss, having a ton of trouble with a specific Zerg style in PvZ. Roach Hydra I feel like I could have better than even odds of beating all night. But I'm having trouble with zergs who are opening 3 base ling/bane to contain the toss on 2 base while mass expanding / tech'ing. I've been going collossus and eventually storm, but they'll be way ahead on the macro and be able to stomp me. Anyone have a good answer to this? Happy to provide a replay. Is it just better FF micro with Collo or is their a better answer/ Edit** Here is the first time I faced it. Didn't really handle it well but you can see the zergs style. I've faced it several times since and run into trouble with them rolling in with mutas. I get enough phoenix to deal with mutas but can't get a 3rd because of the ling ground army. http://drop.sc/311550 Your third is a little bit late, 10:30 is about the latest you should take it after FFE. Your colossi are also late, you should have 2-3 of them at the time he started denying your third. Had you done these two things and secured your third, I feel you should abandon colossus tech altogether after those, it's too immobile and fragile to deal with ling bling. I'd go immediately into zealot/archon, prioritizing armor and shield upgrades. Hell you could probably make a lot of use out of some oracles, too. With MSC + sim city and a couple of colossi you should have been able to hold the third vs his first push, and transition into zarchon. When you move out, have zealots follow archons, and lead with obs or DT so the banelings don't surprise you. Once he tries to engage, amove archons and split zealots behind them. One of two things will happen: either he'll make a colossal mistake and crash all his banelings into your archons, or he'll micro around them and your archons will soften his army up quite a bit. DT's are essential for stopping runby's, as it's rare he'll have detection with backstabs going at the speed of speedlings. Try it out sometime. | ||
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Gessen
United States19 Posts
On March 20 2013 16:43 ThaReckoning wrote: Your third is a little bit late, 10:30 is about the latest you should take it after FFE. Your colossi are also late, you should have 2-3 of them at the time he started denying your third. Had you done these two things and secured your third, I feel you should abandon colossus tech altogether after those, it's too immobile and fragile to deal with ling bling. I'd go immediately into zealot/archon, prioritizing armor and shield upgrades. Hell you could probably make a lot of use out of some oracles, too. With MSC + sim city and a couple of colossi you should have been able to hold the third vs his first push, and transition into zarchon. When you move out, have zealots follow archons, and lead with obs or DT so the banelings don't surprise you. Once he tries to engage, amove archons and split zealots behind them. One of two things will happen: either he'll make a colossal mistake and crash all his banelings into your archons, or he'll micro around them and your archons will soften his army up quite a bit. DT's are essential for stopping runby's, as it's rare he'll have detection with backstabs going at the speed of speedlings. Try it out sometime. Awesome, thanks for checking out the replay. Yeah I'm not the best at paying attention to the clock and timings. Something I need to work on if I want to get better. Thanks for the timing / unit comp advice. May get a friend to help me try taking control of that replay and working towards that. | ||
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acidstormy
United States191 Posts
Army value!!! http://imgur.com/RMnLg2i,Cs2bBe1,PQuF9D0,SF4JYim#1 | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On March 20 2013 17:11 acidstormy wrote: This is how some of my PvZ ends up going... -_- viper hydra roach, -_- Army value!!! http://imgur.com/RMnLg2i,Cs2bBe1,PQuF9D0,SF4JYim#1 That's the workers active tab  Nevermind, nice snipe edit :D What composition did you have and how did you engage? | ||
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acidstormy
United States191 Posts
He had: 5-7 vipers, shit load of hydras, assortment of roaches and zlings *2 missile 1 melle 2 carap I had: 1 msc, 2 void rays, 1 colossus (i left another at my 3rd -_-), assortment of stalkers and chargelots (no blink which is probably why i died so bad), 2 oracles, 5-6 sentries (FF guard and 2 hallc colossus) *2 weap 1 armor I watched the replay again, and i had no business staying in the middle of the map. A few more minutes my way and i would have had it in the bag. I wanted his army to stay away from his 4th because i cannoned it while it was morphing, and all my shit died!  | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Mixing in chargelots in Colossus armies vs roach/hydra isn't very effective for the most part; you can go gateway/immortal/templar but that's a completely different style and it's looking weaker than Colossus play in HotS because of Swarm hosts | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong747 Posts
When a zerg 6~7 pools you on a FFE, I know the proper response such as putting a cannon in your own main mineral line, sacrificing the forge&pylon - but I really am not sure how to play it out from there. I read the original PvZ: The Guide regarding how many gates to get etc. depending if they got gas and such, but I still find it difficult retaking my natural against a good player (masters MMR) if he goes with quite a good amount of speedlings. Is there an optimum amount of sentries that you should be getting to be safe but yet also not set you back too far tech wise due to the heavy gas investment? Thanks in advance for the help, and would be even more grateful if there's a replay or two (none of those links in the guide were against a speedling contain follow up unless I missed it). | ||
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