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It's posted above Mackem
9 pylon
13 gate
15 double gas @100% 6 probes [3x in each gas]
17 pylon
17 cyb core (cut probe for a split second)
@ 100% cyb core, stargate
@ 100/100 MSC this is super early for a msc because it gets out in time to stop reapers. if they proxy reapers close to you theres a chance one will get in while this msc is about halfway maybe, but just pull a few probes and micro back. reapers take too long to kill you should survive without taking losses. if they go for a handful of reapers eventually the msc will have the nexus cannon. same goes with early harass like hellions or what not. cannon shuts these early timings down.
@ 50/50 wg research
From there he has a shitload of variation. I'm gonna say about 75% of all MC's builds were variations past this basic build.
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Italy12247 Posts
Looks pretty simple. Not sure of it in detail but it looks like:
13 gate
15 double gas
17 pylon
3x on each gas
Cyber when you can afford it
20ish third pylon, hidden somewhere in your main
Stalker/MSC/WG when cyber completes
Stargate when you can deny scouting at your third pylon
Second stalker when first completes
Nexus at 400 minerals
Oracle/phoenix production depending on what you intend to do. I've seen him do 2x oracle into phoenix and 4-5 oracles.
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Whats the best way to play against proxy stargate in pvp? I'm in plat right now, and actually beating it most of the time but I'm wondering what the most efficient and safe way to defeat it is? Right now if I scout the early 2nd gas and no tech in the main I just 4gate them since they don't have enough units to actually kill me. They usually destroy my worker line with the oracle, but I destroy their base and win. Is there a better way to do things though?
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On March 17 2013 13:15 Ldawg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 12:27 Ben... wrote:On March 17 2013 07:45 Ldawg wrote:On March 16 2013 19:37 recklessfire wrote:On March 16 2013 16:34 Ldawg wrote:So I ran into a build in PvT on ladder quite often that has me very frustrated. They proxy a factory then land in a corner of my base. Basically if I can't get in his base with a probe scout I have no idea this is coming and it seems ridiculous to stop. Here is an excellent TL post by Bronzeknee (GM with Protoss) that describes the build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384139¤tpage=2#29This build seems even worse now that the MSC doesn't have any detection abilities. Has anyone ran into this build and have any suggestions? i dont think there's an answer until blizzard changes something. I ran into a proxy widow mine build but he was rallying marauders from a 2nd rax that i couldnt scout because of the full wall. He just walks into my natural and places mines while pressuring my ramp. Even after getting the robo out, it took a while to fend off his marauders and the three mines he had placed in my natural. By the time i placed my nexus down, he already expanded so I was pretty behind in economy and since robo/colossus tech is so gas dependent i was pretty much screwed from that point. I dont have issues with aggressive options this early in the game. I dont have an issue with the mines themselves but I think they come out way too fast, and it takes so much gas to get out the necessary detection to deal with this. They are more threatening than cloak banshees imo. You hit the nail on the head. For a brief moment of time, I LOVED PvT when the MSC had detection because that at least partially discouraged this play and for once Protoss could confidently go straight into twilight tech without an auto-loss to banshees or mines. I find twilight tech much more enjoyable to play against Terran and was disappointed when they moved detection to MSC because I felt Protoss were essentially confined to build orders except instead of only Robo we have Robo/Stargate. I just want viable twilight tech! Yes, I find this proxy widow mine build super-frustrating and nigh unstoppable. Throw in the fact that a high percentage of Terran players use this against me on ladder and I am at the point where I just sit out until something is changed. Even when I see the proxy factory and deny it in my base they just have a widow mine bury at my natural and expand since the mine will deny my expo for several minutes until I get detection. Stuff like this is why I still wish they left that detection spell on the mothership core. You didn't have to commit so much gas to a tech path to get portable detection. I liked the option of opening fast twilight council too. Plus yeah, with the necessity of mobile detection to deal with mine rushes it makes way more sense to have an easier access detection. I agree, I feel like in PvT Protoss is now confined to BOs again, except rather than just Robo we have Robo/Stargate, which is better. However, I want viable twilight tech and MSC with detection would help!
there is no way they will add detection to MSC
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On March 18 2013 04:21 ronpaul012 wrote:
Whats the best way to play against proxy stargate in pvp? I'm in plat right now, and actually beating it most of the time but I'm wondering what the most efficient and safe way to defeat it is? Right now if I scout the early 2nd gas and no tech in the main I just 4gate them since they don't have enough units to actually kill me. They usually destroy my worker line with the oracle, but I destroy their base and win. Is there a better way to do things though?
I'm not much higher level than you, but I believe you have found a solution.
day9 points out that the answer to a lot of cheeky stuff is "just go kill him". I do the same thing you do if like 7 pheonix destroy my mineral line early game; they don't have energy or other units so I just go win a base race because pheonix don't hurt buildings...
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On March 18 2013 06:22 Phloat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 04:21 ronpaul012 wrote:
Whats the best way to play against proxy stargate in pvp? I'm in plat right now, and actually beating it most of the time but I'm wondering what the most efficient and safe way to defeat it is? Right now if I scout the early 2nd gas and no tech in the main I just 4gate them since they don't have enough units to actually kill me. They usually destroy my worker line with the oracle, but I destroy their base and win. Is there a better way to do things though? I'm not much higher level than you, but I believe you have found a solution. day9 points out that the answer to a lot of cheeky stuff is "just go kill him". I do the same thing you do if like 7 pheonix destroy my mineral line early game; they don't have energy or other units so I just go win a base race because pheonix don't hurt buildings...
Be careful with this, standard PvP 2 gas builds get their tech in their main after they chase away the scouting probe and can defend 4 gates so just because you see 2 gas and no tech in main doesn't mean there's a proxy or stargate. If for some reason you knew a proxy stargate was coming, then the best response would probably be some sort of fast expand into a stalker heavy blink build. However, the problem is that the point of a proxy stargate is that it's difficult to scout, so your best bet is to use builds that can pressure/poke/scout early on after the scouting probe such as stalkers + MSC with fast warpgate, builds that can just go and kill your opponent like blink, or defensively oriented fast expand builds that include stalkers and aren't just mass sentry.
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Hi fellow protoss,
im just curious why the carrier is still in the game. i mean against what composition is it useful? isnt tempest + voidray better in really every occasion?
i dont know but i do not build carriers anymore and just stick to other air if i need it in the match ups.
would be great if sb got any advices.
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I can't say that its is for sure effective, but I want to say last thursday Grubby was streaming and troll-rushed carriers pvz and completely smashed the zerg. Once he got his first carrier out he sent it over to the zergs main and abused the cliffs to target fire down the queens and individual hydras as they came out while picking off drones. It was absurd how well the carrier was killing off the zergs stuff while floating out of reach of the hydras. I think there is a possibility for carriers there
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anyone trying FFE= > 2 double stargates ( 2 oracles, rest voids) + chargelots and storm?
Take third when researching charge.( round 9-10 min ish?)
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On March 18 2013 07:09 Da.Frozzy wrote:
Hi fellow protoss,
im just curious why the carrier is still in the game. i mean against what composition is it useful? isnt tempest + voidray better in really every occasion?
i dont know but i do not build carriers anymore and just stick to other air if i need it in the match ups.
would be great if sb got any advices.
void ray tempest carrier is a better composition imo, With interceptors in the air, the opponent needs to constantly micro his army so they dont auto attack the interceptors. Against zerg, tempests aren't particularly good vs corruptors, you just need them vs any kind of BL's or to keep attacking his army when he is out of range of you. Carriers still do really well vs corruptors and ground based armies as long you have VR and HT support.
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On March 18 2013 07:09 Da.Frozzy wrote:
Hi fellow protoss,
im just curious why the carrier is still in the game. i mean against what composition is it useful? isnt tempest + voidray better in really every occasion?
i dont know but i do not build carriers anymore and just stick to other air if i need it in the match ups.
would be great if sb got any advices.
I think versus mech the carrier might have some use, I'm not sure because I would rather have tempests for the most part, but I think a few carriers could be useful.
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Master toss here, I am a very build order dependent person, and was wandering if anyone knows multiple solid build orders for Hots,mainly the safest way to fast dts in pvp, the new stargate in pvp, solid follow ups in ffe, builds excluding Mc's stargate pvt, and any other build that is good right now
THANK YOU A TON!!!!!!!!
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On March 18 2013 07:17 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 07:09 Da.Frozzy wrote:
Hi fellow protoss,
im just curious why the carrier is still in the game. i mean against what composition is it useful? isnt tempest + voidray better in really every occasion?
i dont know but i do not build carriers anymore and just stick to other air if i need it in the match ups.
would be great if sb got any advices. I think versus mech the carrier might have some use, I'm not sure because I would rather have tempests for the most part, but I think a few carriers could be useful.
hm yeah thats my point vs mech i would get some tempests voidrays anytime.
so is it just a gimmick that the carrier is still here or will somebody get a use for him? i dont know
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When doing a oracle opening vs. Terran. How are you supposed to go on with tech and timings etc. after you have made two oracles and herassed? I am having a hard time figuring out good timings for beginning collosi and HT tech and at what amount of oracles and/or pheonixes you should stop.
So basically my question is what a good follow up to stargate opening vs. Terran woul be.
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On March 18 2013 07:41 Jawcub wrote:
When doing a oracle opening vs. Terran. How are you supposed to go on with tech and timings etc. after you have made two oracles and herassed? I am having a hard time figuring out good timings for beginning collosi and HT tech and at what amount of oracles and/or pheonixes you should stop.
So basically my question is what a good follow up to stargate opening vs. Terran woul be.
Did you watch MC's games vs Bomber? He was able to tech to colosi ( game 1) and charge + storm ( game 2) pretty easily.
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On March 18 2013 07:49 iLevitate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 07:41 Jawcub wrote:
When doing a oracle opening vs. Terran. How are you supposed to go on with tech and timings etc. after you have made two oracles and herassed? I am having a hard time figuring out good timings for beginning collosi and HT tech and at what amount of oracles and/or pheonixes you should stop.
So basically my question is what a good follow up to stargate opening vs. Terran woul be. Did you watch MC's games vs Bomber? He was able to tech to colosi ( game 1) and charge + storm ( game 2) pretty easily.
Nope I've only seen the ones where he two base all-ins and wins.
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On March 18 2013 07:37 Da.Frozzy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 07:17 Salv wrote:On March 18 2013 07:09 Da.Frozzy wrote:
Hi fellow protoss,
im just curious why the carrier is still in the game. i mean against what composition is it useful? isnt tempest + voidray better in really every occasion?
i dont know but i do not build carriers anymore and just stick to other air if i need it in the match ups.
would be great if sb got any advices. I think versus mech the carrier might have some use, I'm not sure because I would rather have tempests for the most part, but I think a few carriers could be useful. hm yeah thats my point vs mech i would get some tempests voidrays anytime. so is it just a gimmick that the carrier is still here or will somebody get a use for him? i dont know
I have very little experience with tempests in HoTS but I used carriers a lot in WoL against zerg and mech terran so here's my 2 cents:
PvZ - I don't see the usefulness of tempests other than a few to snipe units/buildings here and there and to force engagements. You want the majority of your army to be either void ray or carrier, and I while void rays are better against corruptors, carriers are better against hydras.
PvT - Same thing for tempests - I don't see why you would get more than a few if any at all. As for carriers versus void rays here, late game void rays are better than carriers against vikings but are weaker against everything else - thors (well, maybe not thors, it depends on the mass and how well you can spread out your voids), marines, the new HSM, widow mines, etc. Meanwhile, vikings don't really even counter carriers, so going for carriers seem like the better end game option to me.
On March 18 2013 07:15 iLevitate wrote:
anyone trying FFE= > 2 double stargates ( 2 oracles, rest voids) + chargelots and storm?
Take third when researching charge.( round 9-10 min ish?)
I did this build a lot in WoL with moderate success, and I'm definitely experimenting more with it now. It seems like it's really good and less gimmicky than before, and I'll keep you up to date as I play with it more. It's a great build especially on the new maps with hard to secure 3rds since you don't have to rely on fighting in chokes and using FFs with this build.
The biggest challenge I've faced so far is getting storm in time against the first roach/hydra attack, if you don't have storm ready then you're not going to win. Another thing that can mess you up is if the zerg surprises you with mutas and catch your voids - if you lose your voids, you've pretty much lost the game even though you have dual stargate to quickly make phoenixes to counter the mutas. In WoL the best response against this build was to actually go heavy queen to defend the air while massing roach/ling to deny the 3rd and threaten counters, while teching up to infestor play. Theoretically this is still a good counter even though infestors are weaker, but zergs don't use infestors anymore so I can't say for sure.
The last thing I want to say about it is that it may actually be better to just go single stargate just so you can tech to storm faster. Again I'm still experimenting so we'll see.
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rsvp, you mentioned 1gate DT - can you link to a replay or BO? I'm interested in what options I have for putting on pressure first earlygame then midgame in PvZ with a 1gate expo. The ones I've seen (zealot MSC pressure, 1gate into SG pressure) don't seem to have a crisp transition into a midgame push.
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Gotta repeat my question from this morning, cause it has gotten completely ignored, even the detailed BO that MC does.
On March 17 2013 17:07 animagne wrote:
I really love this build (haven't played it exactly like mc yet though). Has anyone tested it? I would like to know how to deal with early bio aggression (like 2 rax or something like that, I feel reaper pressure and proxy raxes aren't as scary due to MsC and early stalkers). It's hard to know if terran is doing anything like that with a probe scout, since most terrans are taking early refinery now. It's obviously possible to scout that with MsC and stalkers, but it is likely that energy will be spent for recall and will be unable to photon overcharge the natural. Do you just concede your natural and turtle in the base with sentries and hope that your opponent can't deal with oracles? Or is there a better transition that might allow you to keep your natural?
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On March 18 2013 08:56 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 07:37 Da.Frozzy wrote:On March 18 2013 07:17 Salv wrote:On March 18 2013 07:09 Da.Frozzy wrote:
Hi fellow protoss,
im just curious why the carrier is still in the game. i mean against what composition is it useful? isnt tempest + voidray better in really every occasion?
i dont know but i do not build carriers anymore and just stick to other air if i need it in the match ups.
would be great if sb got any advices. I think versus mech the carrier might have some use, I'm not sure because I would rather have tempests for the most part, but I think a few carriers could be useful. hm yeah thats my point vs mech i would get some tempests voidrays anytime. so is it just a gimmick that the carrier is still here or will somebody get a use for him? i dont know I have very little experience with tempests in HoTS but I used carriers a lot in WoL against zerg and mech terran so here's my 2 cents: PvZ - I don't see the usefulness of tempests other than a few to snipe units/buildings here and there and to force engagements. You want the majority of your army to be either void ray or carrier, and I while void rays are better against corruptors, carriers are better against hydras. PvT - Same thing for tempests - I don't see why you would get more than a few if any at all. As for carriers versus void rays here, late game void rays are better than carriers against vikings but are weaker against everything else - thors (well, maybe not thors, it depends on the mass and how well you can spread out your voids), marines, the new HSM, widow mines, etc. Meanwhile, vikings don't really even counter carriers, so going for carriers seem like the better end game option to me. Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 07:15 iLevitate wrote:
anyone trying FFE= > 2 double stargates ( 2 oracles, rest voids) + chargelots and storm?
Take third when researching charge.( round 9-10 min ish?) I did this build a lot in WoL with moderate success, and I'm definitely experimenting more with it now. It seems like it's really good and less gimmicky than before, and I'll keep you up to date as I play with it more. It's a great build especially on the new maps with hard to secure 3rds since you don't have to rely on fighting in chokes and using FFs with this build. The biggest challenge I've faced so far is getting storm in time against the first roach/hydra attack, if you don't have storm ready then you're not going to win. Another thing that can mess you up is if the zerg surprises you with mutas and catch your voids - if you lose your voids, you've pretty much lost the game even though you have dual stargate to quickly make phoenixes to counter the mutas. In WoL the best response against this build was to actually go heavy queen to defend the air while massing roach/ling to deny the 3rd and threaten counters, while teching up to infestor play. Theoretically this is still a good counter even though infestors are weaker, but zergs don't use infestors anymore so I can't say for sure. The last thing I want to say about it is that it may actually be better to just go single stargate just so you can tech to storm faster. Again I'm still experimenting so we'll see.
I did take mutas in consideration. I think we should scout with oracles to check for them and then follow up w/ phoenixes.
With 1st push of roaches/hydras, I did vs it only ladder ( only plat) and successful destroyed and counter attack. However, my opponent was on like 46 drones vs my 60 probes.
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EPT
