My friends and I (new C+/B- playes) are having troubles with PvT. I've heard that Protoss can in theory max out around the12 min mark. I understand that requires some skill, but we'd like some detailed advice for improving our macro in PvT since I haven't been able to find info anywhere else :/ We are mainly interested in being able to bust terran when he tries to take their third and/or defend against a 2/1 bust
Case 1. Terran siege expands and protoss goes 21/28 nexus. When to take second gas? How many gates before third nexus? Third nexus before or after citadel? How many gates in total at three bases? How many gates before Stargate?
Case 2. Protoss opens with gate robo gate (afraid of 2fact, maybe a noob build but pretty safe) Is this build too bad? What changes in this situation? Is it still possible to bust terran's third?
Thanks!
Ps. I'm translating this thread to my friends since most of them don't understand English.
I assume you're talking about Arbiter builds with gateway units and no reaver. So:
Case 1. Terran siege expands and protoss goes 21/28 nexus. When to take second gas? After 3rd Nexus
How many gates before third nexus? 2
Third nexus before or after citadel? Before
How many gates in total at three bases? At least 10
How many gates before Stargate? 4
Case 2. Protoss opens with gate robo gate (afraid of 2fact, maybe a noob build but pretty safe) Is this build too bad? At B rank, probably. You can defend 2 Fac with a Nexus, don't be afraid.
What changes in this situation? Is it still possible to bust terran's third? If they fast expand, you're so far behind in economy, so probably not.
This channel has very good high level protoss guides with english sub.
I think the following build order advice is applicable to most openings. Assuming terran didn't go 2 fac and the opening proceeds normally, you want to get the first obs out quickly to scout for things like starport or fac cc fac. Usually the terran player will often let the obs live and you can keep it in their main. The main thing to look for afterwards is factory count, armory and third cc timing. If you didn't make reavers, you probably need 5-6 gates against 4 fac and 7-8 against 5 fac. If you did, make 5 gates against 4 fac and 6 against 5 fac. In most standard games, 4 gates is usually enough to take a 4th base at around 9 minutes (before or after depends on situation but roughly speaking). Sometimes you'll lose the first obs or they'll make a turret ring and you'll have to play more carefully in this situation.
At around the same time as you send out first obs, it's a good time to take a third (around 6 minutes into the game and at 50s to 60s supply). Generally, it's safe to take your third with just 2 gate production and 7 dragoons but if you are not confident in your dragoon micro, I recommend 3 gate dragoon into third base. After this, you should get natural assimilator then citadel and forge and also make a pylon wall at your third. The stargate timing is around the time citadel is done and templar archive timing should be soon after stargate since it builds a couple seconds faster. Also get +1 weapons from your forge when it's done.
Keep in mind usually you should not cut worker production in PvT before around 9:00 to 9:30. I don't know exact timing but a good time to stop probe production is at around 60 something workers (I prefer 65 but some make more/less). This timing might be delayed if terran plays aggressively. Often players have poor max timings because they make army production buildings too early and have too few probes. Also, when you're done producing probes, you should start adding up to 10-12 gates in total.
Edit: Also, above post is mostly accurate but it says you need at least 10 gates off 3 bases. I do not recommend this because this is basically all-in and it is not popular.
On August 10 2022 17:42 TMNT wrote: Case 2. Protoss opens with gate robo gate (afraid of 2fact, maybe a noob build but pretty safe) Is this build too bad?
Almost Protoss players (pro gamers) played this in 2003-2005
I played with my friend. He always uses 2 gates into robo or 2 gates into nexus, and I never can win him. This build just sure survival early game and then beating Terran by marco from 2 to 10 bases, it depends on specific situation.
@Ap3ir0n You should figure out by time instead of units or building.
Only thing you need to know is the number of bases that Terran has early game. One base means 2 or factories allin, mass drop, 1 tank + siege upgrade into CC fly to nature base. Two bases means marco game.
Only thing you need to do is never attack, except to A-move to sure win.
Let's sit at your home, taking all the maps, defend some waves attack from Terran. That's it.
Edit: Also, above post is mostly accurate but it says you need at least 10 gates off 3 bases. I do not recommend this because this is basically all-in and it is not popular.
Yeah true. I should have added that 10 gates off 3 bases only when he wants to max around 12 min and bust the Terran's 3rd with a stasis and end the game immediately. It's kinda all-in-ish.
You must know there is no single answer to your questions it all depends on what you wanna do and your opponent. But if you wanna play like a computer fine.
I've been putting in practice all the advice and I'vd noted a HUGE difference in my macro. My only problem is 2 fact, which is still for me hard to stop after a 28 nexus. I usually do: 28 nexus gate goon robo
What is the safest response after 28 nexus if I don't know what the terran is doing? Should I build a third gate? That'd help me a lot. Thanks!
On August 14 2022 01:20 Ap3ir0n wrote: Thank you everyone!
I've been putting in practice all the advice and I'vd noted a HUGE difference in my macro. My only problem is 2 fact, which is still for me hard to stop after a 28 nexus. I usually do: 28 nexus gate goon robo
What is the safest response after 28 nexus if I don't know what the terran is doing? Should I build a third gate? That'd help me a lot. Thanks!
If terran does not have natural cc at 4 minutes (even 3:40-3 :50 tbh), you should be very suspicious of 2 fac. It can be fast drop or speed vultures though. Against 2 fac, you should move your goons forward to have room to kite terran army but not so far that you can't intercept vulture runby effectively. You can add gates up 3-4 but just be aware that the extra gates probably will not kick in by the time they are at your natural. Shuttle + reaver is very good in this situation.
In terms of micro advice, do not pounce for tanks immediately. That is an easy way to lose everything really fast because their army is much stronger than yours initially. Instead, you should kite defensively back to your natural so you don't take too much damage from tanks and you can get some damage on the marines, mines and vultures. This slows down good terrans because they will try to keep their army clumped together so their tanks can protect their other units. Anyway, you want to stall them until your next two goons are out to fight the remainder of their army. If the initial fighting did not go well (lost a goon and didn't kill much for example), you might have to pull probes.
I probably left out a lot of important details because a lot of battle micro or control comes from experience and is hard to describe so it is fine to lose a lot to 2 fac.
EPT
