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[G] MacSed's PvZ build

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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1 2 Next All
JayPower
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands171 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-10 00:30:23
July 24 2013 17:49 GMT
#1
[image loading]

Introduction

This is a guide about a build I saw Macsed do in WCS Amercia season 1 vs Gowser. Your goal with this style is to head up towards a voidray / colossus / HT army. You will have a lot opportunity to put pressure on your opponent and the scouting tools to help you get the tech advantage.

Build overview

You open with a gateway expand but with 2 gasses. This will help you get sentries out in preparation for your first push. After you've put down your nexus, you add 3 more gateways while adding more sentries to your army. Once your warpgate is done, you want to add in a couple of zealots and move out to pressure your opponent.

Even though this build looks a bit like Naniwa's 4gate pressure, you don't want to commit as much as you would with that build. The main things you want to see here is whether the zerg is getting a 3rd and if he's getting roaches to defend the 3rd. If your opponent is relying solely on speedlings to defend the 3rd, you can most likely deny it. This is because he most likely will not have a spine or reinforcements from queens as easily to his 3rd base as oppose to his natural.

Don't use a timewarp with your mothershipcore unless you think it will greatly increase the damage your pressure will do. You absolutely have to save your sentries to take your 3rd later, you can't afford the gas to remake them.

Before this pressure you send out a hallucinated phoenix to scout your opponent. You will mainly be looking for how many units your opponent has and if you can put pressure on him. Next thing you want to take a look at is whether he has evo chambers, if the lair started, how many queens there are on the field and how many gasses your opponent has. This won't change anything in the build order quite yet, but it is a good thing to take a glimpse at what your opponent is doing. For example, if he's staying on 2 bases with 4 gasses and a lair 70-80% done, you know you are dealing with a fast tech build and you know what to scout for later.

During this pressure, you put down 2 stargates and a forge a bit later (this should be around 7:05). You don't start +1 attack quite yet, but it's good to have a forge ready in case your opponent is making a lot of roaches and/or speedlings. I can't stress enough that the 4 sentries you make in the early game is the only gas you spend on gateway units (at least until storm). You cannot afford to make any stalkers or more sentries, you'll have to do it with zealots.

Once your stargates are done, you make a voidray and a oracle. The oracle is to scout and harass and the voidray is to clear overlords around your base and get you ready to take a 3rd base. After that you make the robo after this (should be around 8:25). At this point you should scout around you base with the voidray and msc to see how many units your opponent has. You should use the oracle (which should be around your opponent's base) to scout how many units your opponent is making. Based on this scouting information you decide how fast you should take a 3rd. Usually this should be around 10 minutes. You keep making voidrays during this time and get a robobay when your robo facility is done.

[image loading]

You can try to do some pressure with your first 4-5 voidrays before you switch to colossus. This can catch zergs off guard who go for fast tech without many lair tech units like hydralisks or mutalisks.

[image loading]

From this point in the game you have to scout and react to what your opponent is doing. You have the tools to scout and the infrastructure to react.

Build order

13 gate
15 2x gas (2 probes on each)
21 msc (cut probes)
23 nexus
23 pylon (on the low ground)(continue probe production)
24 sentry
28 3x gateway (~5:00)(3 probes on each gas)
29 sentry
33 pylon
36 sentry
38 sentry
45 3rd gas (6:30)

Warp in zealots and move out with 4 senrties, 3 zealot (1 zealot stays in the wall) and the msc.

55 2x stargate (~7:05)
59 4th gas (~7:22)
60 forge (~7:50)

Stargates finishes up, make a voidray and a orcale.

70 robo (~8:25)
+1 attack & more voidrays

Recommended maps

I recommend this build on maps that don't favor swarmhost play or that aren't small. I do think you can make a transition into a harassment oriented style to battle swarmhosts, I just think opening double stargate and getting the robo later will result in having warp prisms out a bit late. Also make sure to get the best out of your voidrays before the queen count gets too high.

The reason I don't recommend this build on smaller maps (currently only Neo Planet S) is because most responses from zergs will pressure you very heavily in the mid-game. Having a short rush distance to your 3rd base will make it even more difficult.

Recommended

Bel'Shir Vestige
Derelict Watcher
Red City
Star Station
Whirlwind

Questionable

Korhal Sky Island

Not recommended

Akilon Wastes
Neo Planet S
Newkirk Precinct

Dealing with certain tech / timings

Fast 1-1 lings into ultras with queen support

Replay: http://drop.sc/351241

Constantly clearing creep from the map in the mid-game is about half the work of dealing with this. The queens help keep the ultralisk alive for so long so you want to engage this army without the queens. Denying the zerg from spreading creep makes your army way more mobile compared to his. Other than that you want to make immortals after you have enough colossi to deal with any lings / roaches / hydras that may come with this. So you won't need a whole lot of them.


Ling hydra flood on medium economy

Replay: http://drop.sc/351239

With ling hydra flood I mean a zerg that reacts passively toward your 3rd base until he's up to 60-70 drones, then tries to end the game by flooding you with ling hydra. This style is very good against stargate openers that involve a fast 3rd base and is designed to hit before you get AoE out in high numbers (storm or colossi). You can recognize this style by it's lack of roaches, lack of extra queens and no signs to tech further than lair (no infestation pit). Usually the zerg only spreads his creep tumors in 1 direction (towards your base). Once you see your opponent making a lot of hydras, you can't afford to have your robo bay delayed, so pay attention to your robo facility and get your robo bay right away. Before you get a large enough number of colossi to comfortably deal with any amount of hydras, you need to focus on zealot production. Zealots in combination with timewarp and forcefields is a very good tool to deal with hydras. Again do NOT produce more than the 4 sentries you made in the early game.


2base hydra timing



Replay: http://drop.sc/351244

For this timing I prefer tech to charge zealot and getting the robo later. The reason for this is because you won't be able to get colossi out fast enough. This means you won't be trying to hold on to a 3rd while colossi are on the way. You have to actually kill the hydras with something more accessible in this situation.


vs maxed viper / hydra / roach



Replay: http://drop.sc/351247

To hold this attack, you need to tech to high templar fast. If your opponent is going for more roaches than hydras, you want to focus more on producing voidrays. If your opponent is going for more hydras than roaches, you want to focus more on producing colossi.


vs endless roach / hydra / corruptor flood

Replay: http://drop.sc/351251

From all pushes, this is probably the ones easiest to hold. You just want to produce as many colossi and voidrays as possible. Don't underestimate the power of zealots, they help a great deal with holding the hydras back from attacking your voidrays. You really need that extra support when your colossus count is low. Once you hit about 150+ supply, you want to add high templars for storm as well. Be aware of viper transitions as well.

Other replays

new replay pack

http://drop.sc/packs/1474


vs JEJUS (CatZ)

Watch this game casted by BelleNOiR:



My analysis:

My opponent played way too passive and let me get 3 bases comfortably. In the late-game tried dealing with my maxed voidray / colossus / high templar army, but was unsuccessful. In some engagement he got good fungals off and damaged my army severely but was never able to finish it. When was already too far ahead in the recourses lost count, he tried a transition to broodlord / swarmhost without proper upgrades. I used my army mobility to secure the resources of 7 bases out of 12 and starve him out. I recommend this game if you're having trouble with army movement in the late-game


http://drop.sc/351253 vs Tyrox

This is another game of the zerg going for the roach / hydra / corruptor flood. After getting up to 140-150 supply you start trading extremely cost effecient and your opponent has choice but to tech to vipers. Most zerg stay with roach / hydra / corruptor though. This game shows well why that doesn't work.

[image loading]


http://drop.sc/351242 vs Moonrise

This game shows very well how far behind you are when you over commit with the gateway pressure and lose your sentries (and have to remake them to hold counter pressure). I was however able to even it out somewhat by being aggressive with my first 4 voidrays by forcing out a lot of hydras and delaying my opponent's broodlord tech. I think this game shows very well how great the double stargate, 1 robo + gateways units (including high templar) are to have as infrastructure.

[image loading]


Replay: http://drop.sc/351243 vs a barcode

In this game my opponent went for the fast +1/+1 style. Even though I didn't kill anything with the 4gate pressure. I was ahead in worker count cause he over commited to speedlings. I had to take my 3rd later though because he had so many lings out. Even though he did some damage to my economy in the mid/late-game (I never really got to be at 70~ workers for too long like I wanted to) I was able to buy so much time to prepare for the ultralisk attack with just a single warp prism. I also got to scout the double spire and knew a air transition was possible.

For some reason though, I made the wrong army and decided to attack. I lost pretty much everything for free, due to my harass I was able to scout his mutalisk transition (which was pretty weak though for a late-game mutalisk transition (only 15~ mutalisk at first)). After I dealt with the mutalisk harass I was able to get the appropriate army to deal with the ultralisks.

[image loading]


http://drop.sc/351241 vs EviL

In this game my opponent went for the fast +1/+1 style too. My gateway pressure, oracle harass and voidray pressure set him behind in economy. I don't think I did a good job denying his creep spread, but it was enough to keep him from attacking me. I think there were moments in the game where I was vulnerable. My opponent stayed on 2 bases for a very long which made it hard for me to harass his economy. I got lucky a couple of times in engagements where my opponent didn't transfuse his ultra's even thought he had 15+ queens in his army. The game ended eventually with the zerg trying to do a switch to mass muta but made the mistake of using the mutas in his army rather than harassing with them.


http://drop.sc/351248 vs [BriT]boubi

In this game I committed with the gateway pressure and killed the 3rd because my opponent's roaches were late. My opponent expand to a new 3rd really fast so I'm not sure if it was worth it to delay my tech for it. Especially with my 3rd being late, I was set up very poorly for the mid-game and had to play defensively. Due to my opponent attacking way too late with his hydra/viper army (I already had ranged colossi and more than enough storms) and having terrible micro, I was still able to win the game.

[image loading]


http://drop.sc/351252 vs Aicy

Even though my opponent went for a early pool and didn't do much damage, I think the game ended up pretty even going into the mid-game. He even was able to pull off a runby killing 20 probes. He made the mistake not capitalizing on his lead by not pressuring with vipers. This game shows really well how good revelation is in the late-game.

[image loading]


vs speedling all-in: http://drop.sc/351249
vs baneling all-in: http://drop.sc/351250

To hold hold these 2 all-ins, you need to not get caught outside your base doing the pressure. With the fast 4 sentries and 4 gateways, it's vey easy to hold if you pay attention to your ramp. On some maps you may have to reinforce your ramp with extra buildings.


Download all replays in this guide in 1 pack: http://drop.sc/packs/1471

VOD



FAQ

Q: Why do so many zergs play like it's 2010?
A: Even though roach / hydra pushes can be good to punish a protoss going for a 3rd off 2 stargates, they never make the transition to viper fast enough to keep up the pressure.

Q: Why didn't you include a part on how to deal with swarmhosts?
A: Because I don't recommend this army composition vs swarmhosts. Once you realise your opponent is going for swarmhost play, you have to be out on the map harassing and pulling the swarmhosts out of position rather than sitting at home making voidrays and colossi.

Mod-rater

+ Show Spoiler +
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8/10 - Be aware of angry zergs on ladder

Previous guide

Opening stargate in PvZ

[image loading]

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420782

About me

I’m JayPower. 20 years old and from the Netherlands. I play Protoss at a grandmaster level.
My stream: http://www.twitch.tv/jaypower/. I stream my ladder games with commentary over there. I interact a lot with viewers and try to maintain a positive atmosphere that focuses on improving.

My twitter: https://twitter.com/JayPowerSC2. I don't tweet a whole lot. I mostly use it to update my followers on the content that I make and when I stream.

My website: http://jaypowersc2.com/. You can find my other guides organized on there and lots of other content.

Please give me feedback on the guide. I really do appreciate any feedback, so please give me suggestions on how I can improve. Any questions about the guide are welcome too, I will try to answer them as soon as possible.
Jaypowersc2.com for Guides, Videos, Replays and Coaching
foRGe02
Profile Joined July 2011
United States14 Posts
July 24 2013 18:49 GMT
#2
Looks like a nice thorough guide. I'll give it a read when I get home. Well done ^^.
krutopatkin
Profile Joined July 2012
Germany2612 Posts
July 24 2013 18:50 GMT
#3
Wow, extremely nice guide, thanks for the effort.

To hold this attack, you need to tech to high templar fast. If your opponent is going for more roaches than hydras, you want to focus more on producing voidrays. If your opponent is going for more hydras than roaches, you want to focus more on producing voidrays.


I guess you wanted to insert another unit for the second "voidrays"
JayPower
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands171 Posts
July 24 2013 19:56 GMT
#4
On July 25 2013 03:50 krutopatkin wrote:
Wow, extremely nice guide, thanks for the effort.

Show nested quote +
To hold this attack, you need to tech to high templar fast. If your opponent is going for more roaches than hydras, you want to focus more on producing voidrays. If your opponent is going for more hydras than roaches, you want to focus more on producing voidrays.


I guess you wanted to insert another unit for the second "voidrays"


Voidrays is all you need :D
Nah you're right, my mistake. I'll edit it.
Jaypowersc2.com for Guides, Videos, Replays and Coaching
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
July 24 2013 23:07 GMT
#5
On July 25 2013 04:56 JayPower wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2013 03:50 krutopatkin wrote:
Wow, extremely nice guide, thanks for the effort.

To hold this attack, you need to tech to high templar fast. If your opponent is going for more roaches than hydras, you want to focus more on producing voidrays. If your opponent is going for more hydras than roaches, you want to focus more on producing voidrays.


I guess you wanted to insert another unit for the second "voidrays"


Voidrays is all you need :D
Nah you're right, my mistake. I'll edit it.


I mean, it's pretty safe to say that void rays + anything = good protoss army these days.... Nice guide, good formatting. I might try this out some, although I honestly dislike the big void ray/colossus armies, preferring more templar-based armies.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
ARze
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia45 Posts
July 24 2013 23:45 GMT
#6
very nice by jaypower as usual, a pleasure! will be trying for sure.
Chrumo
Profile Joined February 2011
Poland9 Posts
July 26 2013 15:08 GMT
#7
Great guide, Iove how you briefly covered the replays instead of simply posting them. I have some questions though, I hope that you wil find time to respond to at least some of them:

1. What is the importance of sentries and forcefields during an ultraless mid-late game when going for this composition ? It might be difficult to keep the initial 4 alive for the entire game, so should I replenish them if need be, or are the forcefields unnecessary later on and I can spend that gas on HTs and other fancy shiny stuff?

2.How should I time my secondary upgrades (which I think considers all the upgrades besides Ground Attack)? Should I even consider getting them before my army is maxed out? I'm asking this, because again, this composition seems to be extremely gas dependent, and every bit of that gas I can preserve appears to be a sheer bliss. On the other hand, early +1 for Void Rays seems very tempting.

3.Another upgrade question - do you prefer upgrading Shields , Ground Armor or Air Armor in the mid/late game? I've noticed that you tend to opt for Shields first in some of the games and I found that very interesting.

Thanks again for the awesome guide, I'm sure I'll be using it a lot in my PvZs
JayPower
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands171 Posts
July 26 2013 20:55 GMT
#8
On July 27 2013 00:08 Chrumo wrote:
Great guide, Iove how you briefly covered the replays instead of simply posting them. I have some questions though, I hope that you wil find time to respond to at least some of them:

1. What is the importance of sentries and forcefields during an ultraless mid-late game when going for this composition ? It might be difficult to keep the initial 4 alive for the entire game, so should I replenish them if need be, or are the forcefields unnecessary later on and I can spend that gas on HTs and other fancy shiny stuff?

2.How should I time my secondary upgrades (which I think considers all the upgrades besides Ground Attack)? Should I even consider getting them before my army is maxed out? I'm asking this, because again, this composition seems to be extremely gas dependent, and every bit of that gas I can preserve appears to be a sheer bliss. On the other hand, early +1 for Void Rays seems very tempting.

3.Another upgrade question - do you prefer upgrading Shields , Ground Armor or Air Armor in the mid/late game? I've noticed that you tend to opt for Shields first in some of the games and I found that very interesting.

Thanks again for the awesome guide, I'm sure I'll be using it a lot in my PvZs


1. Oh my bad. I meant for them to stay alive to take your 3rd base. Also when your opponent is going for any type of ground push and you're just getting your first or second colossi, you could use some forcefields. You can decide later in the game if some forcefields would increase your army strength.

2. I think that depends on how you see your late-game army. Personally I never like to go full air toss if it's possible. That's why I usually don't upgrade air. I only use my voidrays to deal with roaches in the early/mid game and help vs corruptors. I think getting +1 air is definitely something you can get after your 3rd is up for a little bit, but I'm not too sure.

3. I prefer shield upgrades after I get +3 attack because I don't think your army is supposed to lose any health in engagements. When you have expensive units in your army like colossi and voidrays, you want your zealots to tank the damage and the colossi and voidrays to deal damage. Storms help you control where your opponent's army moves and when the shields of your valuable units are gone, you need to retreat. Either with recall or with defensive storms. This is of course just the theory and it almost never happens like that, but it kind of gives me a reason to do it this way. I don't actually know if it's better.
Jaypowersc2.com for Guides, Videos, Replays and Coaching
aldochillbro
Profile Joined July 2012
187 Posts
July 28 2013 04:05 GMT
#9
nice guide. I like how it incorporates ways to keep the game honest with the pressure and deals with a lot of common problems in the lategame
JayPower
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands171 Posts
August 10 2013 00:31 GMT
#10
I also update this guide with a new replay pack:

http://drop.sc/packs/1474
Jaypowersc2.com for Guides, Videos, Replays and Coaching
bertu
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Brazil871 Posts
August 10 2013 02:05 GMT
#11
On August 10 2013 09:31 JayPower wrote:
I also update this guide with a new replay pack:

http://drop.sc/packs/1474


Thank you so much for all of your guides, they've been immensely helpful.
SEKO SEKO SEKO
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-10 19:59:29
August 10 2013 19:57 GMT
#12
What an awesome guide, thanks JayPower.

I still feel uncomfortable with Colossus vs Hydra/Roach/Viper timing though. It is tough to feedback the Vipers before the pulls. Even in the video I feel like it was really close. Any tips for feedbacking them?
JayPower
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands171 Posts
August 11 2013 14:38 GMT
#13
On August 11 2013 04:57 BronzeKnee wrote:
What an awesome guide, thanks JayPower.

I still feel uncomfortable with Colossus vs Hydra/Roach/Viper timing though. It is tough to feedback the Vipers before the pulls. Even in the video I feel like it was really close. Any tips for feedbacking them?


It is indeed hard to do so. Having good map vision helps a ton. In the video I was lucky enough to have a observer over his army so I could see the vipers coming. Having storm can help a lot too. The zerg will have his roach / hydra near his vipers when he's about to pull a unit in. so even if you couldn't get a feedback off, you can force him to stand in the storm if he wants to attack the unit he pulled in.
Jaypowersc2.com for Guides, Videos, Replays and Coaching
FLiP491
Profile Joined November 2010
United States124 Posts
August 15 2013 01:42 GMT
#14
I think you forgot the cybcore timing in the guide. Odd it's been up so long without anyone pointing it out? I mean common sense puts it between the gasses and the msc, but it's not actually stated. (I think?)
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-15 06:18:58
August 15 2013 06:12 GMT
#15
On August 15 2013 10:42 FLiP491 wrote:
I think you forgot the cybcore timing in the guide. Odd it's been up so long without anyone pointing it out? I mean common sense puts it between the gasses and the msc, but it's not actually stated. (I think?)

EDIT: Okay, I used pro addition and subtraction so I think I got this. 16 Pylon, 17 Core. Basically, standard.
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
August 15 2013 23:21 GMT
#16
beautiful guide
TL+ Member
Vardaine
Profile Joined June 2013
Netherlands5 Posts
September 01 2013 10:14 GMT
#17
I tried this build a couple of times and it works like a charm. The only thing that I couldn't find is what to do versus mass mutalisks. This has murdered me a couple of times now as the void rays die so fast to mutas.

The obvious response is phoenixes, of course, but for some reason I am always a step or 20 behind when a zerg is keeping me pinned down with mass speedling and then suddenly shos up with 20 or 30 muta's. Do you have any replays vs that?
NewEyes
Profile Joined March 2012
Germany113 Posts
September 01 2013 11:38 GMT
#18
Really good job!
aldochillbro
Profile Joined July 2012
187 Posts
September 01 2013 14:24 GMT
#19
you should be scouting mutas with hallucinated pheonix and the oracle you made vardaine.
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
September 17 2013 03:20 GMT
#20
Great guide. Used it in some low level games, and the two attacks really work wonders; I've won every PvZ I've played with it so far, and all but one of them was over when the Void pressure concluded. The last one I was able to use the Void pressure to keep him on 3 bases and won with a maxed out attack. I haven't even been playing very well; the build's just really good at putting the Zerg in difficult spots.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
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