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[D] TvT forGGeddon strategy (45 wins 3 losses)

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-22 21:54:42
May 15 2013 19:05 GMT
#1
I analyzed the 4 tvt wins of forGG's games in WCS after seeing mass hellions and noticed he was 45 wins - 3 losses in tvt. He used the same build every game so lots of adaptations (and his mindset) i could analyze. I like to share the knowledge that i have obtained from that. The information below gives u his standard buildorders, his harras choices, adaptions and how he engages in tvt.

forGG’s life lessons

1. Never scv-scout
2. Do not use HOTS units or technology before 10 minutes
3. Use the same standard opener and early unitcomposition (phase 1 standard in image below) every game.
4. Build a maximum of 8 marines to harras and do not build tanks before 12 minutes, except if u need them i.e. to break an early contain.
5. Be aggressive and adapt to your opponent in a game.

Aim of the build

Aim for infrastructure :
3 CC’s with 6 gasses
3 factories with techlab
2 factories with reactor
1 starport wth a techlab
1 armory

Aim for unitcompososition is :
Alot of Blueflame hellions
Some Tanks (but not before 12:00 if u dont need too)
Some Vikings
1 Raven

Standard Buildorder & Strategy
For his buildorders see "phase 1 Standard" (and "phase 2 standard" of u are not harassed) in the image below. The nice part about phase 1 is that he doesnt need to scout anything because he can stop any form of aggresion with his unitcomposition.

[image loading]

Standard early harras strategy is that forGG tries to drops the 8 marines in the main and tries a runby at the expo with the hellions at the same time.

Adaptions

Adaptions to buildorders and strategy are based opun what he encountered and mostly dependant of the type of 1st early harras by the opponent. It seems he always tries to stick with his aim of the build. But if he adapts, he mostly adapts unitproduction or harras but not his buildorders (except after an early hellbat- or WM-drop), as explained in the image below (red is the adaptation).

[image loading]

forGG's rules of engagements

1. BF-hellions against tanks is fine, so long there inbetween the sieged tanks so that the tanks kill themselves.
2. Against bio+tank u do not allways have too siege tanks, the mass BF hellions do enough AoE damage by themselves. In this way u can still abuse your mobility and the AoE from sieged tanks cant hurt your hellions when there not sieged.
3. Use PDD against marauders and HSM against thors.

Vods :

WCSEU1 forGG vs Strelok
WCSEU1 forGG vs MMA : time 3:01:00
WCSEU2 (after banshee/hellbatpatch) forGG vs Bunny

Replays (havent checked it yet but communitypointed these out so it must be good)
http://www.sc2win.com/players.php?/Forgg Replaypack #16, game 4 and maybe others.

What i learned from it as a non-master player

1. Mass Blueflame hellions are still very fun to play with
2. Hellions are still really good units, certainly when u hit critical mass they become really strong. The spare gas u have can go in other buildings, upgrades and airunits.
3. Play adaptive/aggresive to your opponents actions and composition : As this standard build with early armory and techlab on starport gives u the opportunity to do so! I.e. forGG was aggresive at the 7/10/13/16 minutemark in most of those games.
4. The chance is small that u do not have airsuperiority at a certain time, because most terrans will build more medivacs then forgg does. U can allways use pdd in an airbattle and switch the starport to a reactor to get 2x faster production when outnumbered just like forgg.


Howto stop early aggression (TL style not based on forGG games)

How to defend early reaper harras (8/8/8 or less aggresive)
How to defend proxy marauderrush



Updated thx to the comments till July 13th.
1. Edited pics and why he chose for the 5 banshee semi allin.
2. *phase
3. There were questions about early allins/early aggresion not seen in forgg games. Ive made an extra section (last section) concerning howto defend these types of early aggresion with this build. I wont put them in the content/images of original post because i think we should separate forGG actions/mindset/games with our thoughts.
4. Added 2nd gastiming and edited the images
5. Added replays thx to the efforts of the community!
6. Added WCSEU2 vods of bunny vs forgg.
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
ErrantKnight
Profile Joined November 2012
Switzerland186 Posts
May 15 2013 19:13 GMT
#2
It's interesting but will this style will be enough against one of the Europeans top terran in the person of the Empire.Happy ? I'm not sure.
"Quantity is quality by itself"
HanSomPa
Profile Joined December 2012
United States87 Posts
May 15 2013 19:18 GMT
#3
Reminds me of iEchoic's 2 Fact 2 Port Hellion/Banshee. Solid transition from Fast expand into [Hellion/Banshee or Mech] into late game here imo.
He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-15 19:42:30
May 15 2013 19:22 GMT
#4
On May 16 2013 04:13 ErrantKnight wrote:
It's interesting but will this style will be enough against one of the Europeans top terran in the person of the Empire.Happy ? I'm not sure.


45 wins 3 losses, i think so (teaja, MMA, strelok and happy mutiple times)

http://www.aligulac.com/players/34/results/?race=t&nats=all&bo=all&offline=both&game=HotS
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
May 15 2013 20:03 GMT
#5
On May 16 2013 04:18 HanSomPa wrote:
Reminds me of iEchoic's 2 Fact 2 Port Hellion/Banshee. Solid transition from Fast expand into [Hellion/Banshee or Mech] into late game here imo.


Could be! The fase 1 unitcomposition is really solid, early hellbatdrops etc wont kill u I didnt like mech that much because it was slow, but this masshellionstyle isnt slow, its faster then bio
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
Kevin_Sorbo
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada3217 Posts
May 15 2013 20:07 GMT
#6
On May 16 2013 04:13 ErrantKnight wrote:
It's interesting but will this style will be enough against one of the Europeans top terran in the person of the Empire.Happy ? I'm not sure.



45-3 mec.

so yeah I guess it will be enough.
The mind is like a parachute, it doesnt work unless its open. - Zappa
Taefox
Profile Joined March 2010
1533 Posts
May 15 2013 20:36 GMT
#7
Can u add some WCS EU vods recently ? i'd be great for the thread
thanks for the awesome analyzing
@taefoxy
IMplying
Profile Joined August 2012
Germany58 Posts
May 15 2013 20:39 GMT
#8
Hate to be that guy, but it's "phase" not "fase".
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
May 15 2013 20:44 GMT
#9
On May 16 2013 05:36 Porishan wrote:
Can u add some WCS EU vods recently ? i'd be great for the thread
thanks for the awesome analyzing


Thx for the feedback! certainly because there free to watch still^^
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25047 Posts
May 15 2013 21:12 GMT
#10
Enjoyed the layout you used, pretty cool. Will have a real proper read later I think
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
herMan
Profile Joined November 2010
Japan2053 Posts
May 15 2013 21:18 GMT
#11
ForGGeddon mentioned +1 to you sir. I also like how you bothered to make charts.

Never been a fan of mech but Strelok vs forgg made it look pretty cool. Could be tinkering with this in the next weeks.
gillon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden1578 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-15 21:27:25
May 15 2013 21:22 GMT
#12
This build has been around for ages, and was the staple TvT build for so long for anyone doing mech.

15 gas, 2 marines -> reactor, CC, fact, switch after 2 more rounds of marines, starport, add 2nd gas -> medivac or viking/raven/viking, depending on what you want to accomplish.

The build is really old (it's still good though, mind you), what forgg shines at are the small nuances of it. Knowing what can punish what and when, very precisely.

EDIT: I'm also pretty sure that what he did on belshir vs MMA is not something he treats particularly standard. He knew he was really behind and that a macro game would not work out to his favor, so he realized a particular weaknes in this very specific scenario and managed to abuse it to eek out a win where using normal play would almost certainly lead to defeat.

The standard followup that you will see him do most of the time is 3rd expo, add 2nd and 3 fact and after that add your natural gases with armory and fact #4 and #5 following shortly as resources allow.
www.teamproperty.net | "You should hate losing, but you should never fear defeat." - 이윤열
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-15 21:25:06
May 15 2013 21:23 GMT
#13
On May 16 2013 06:18 herMan wrote:
ForGGeddon mentioned +1 to you sir. I also like how you bothered to make charts.

Never been a fan of mech but Strelok vs forgg made it look pretty cool. Could be tinkering with this in the next weeks.


Be sure to check the vods. Its his decisionmaking/adaptation that wins him the games, not the build itself (although the pretty standard wol-build gives u the opportunity to do so). U will mostly see (semi)proterrans preforming a build they practised alot. With forgg u see someone adapting to the gameflow more (thx to the opportunity he gave himself, thx to the early armory and techlabbed starport+other addons he has).
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-16 00:48:34
May 15 2013 21:41 GMT
#14
On May 16 2013 06:22 gillon wrote:
This build has been around for ages, and was the staple TvT build for so long for anyone doing mech.

15 gas, 2 marines -> reactor, CC, fact, switch after 2 more rounds of marines, starport, add 2nd gas -> medivac or viking/raven/viking, depending on what you want to accomplish.

The build is really old (it's still good though, mind you), what forgg shines at are the small nuances of it. Knowing what can punish what and when, very precisely.

EDIT: I'm also pretty sure that what he did on belshir vs MMA is not something he treats particularly standard. He knew he was really behind and that a macro game would not work out to his favor, so he realized a particular weaknes in this very specific scenario and managed to abuse it to eek out a win where using normal play would almost certainly lead to defeat.

The standard followup that you will see him do most of the time is 3rd expo, add 2nd and 3 fact and after that add your natural gases with armory and fact #4 and #5 following shortly as resources allow.


Agreed, nice addon to the OP

Edit : I will edit the OP after the first 24h. So the OP will become more of an community-OP in the end i hope.
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
herMan
Profile Joined November 2010
Japan2053 Posts
May 15 2013 21:45 GMT
#15
On May 16 2013 06:23 govie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 16 2013 06:18 herMan wrote:
ForGGeddon mentioned +1 to you sir. I also like how you bothered to make charts.

Never been a fan of mech but Strelok vs forgg made it look pretty cool. Could be tinkering with this in the next weeks.


Be sure to check the vods. Its his decisionmaking/adaptation that wins him the games, not the build itself (although the pretty standard wol-build gives u the opportunity to do so). U will mostly see (semi)proterrans preforming a build they practised alot. With forgg u see someone adapting to the gameflow more (thx to the opportunity he gave himself, thx to the early armory and techlabbed starport+other addons he has).


Yeah you're correct, forgg struck gold by making that banshee and keeping it alive. He had no choice but to make tons of hellions since he was starving on gas.
Marathi
Profile Joined July 2011
298 Posts
May 15 2013 21:59 GMT
#16
Big ForGG fan and it's nice to see he is making mech look exciting to play. Strelok's games bore me to tears. I couldn't believe how well that mass hellion style was faring against the tanks, quite crazy
eSports tees designed by me - http://tinyurl.com/bqmexd9
gillon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden1578 Posts
May 15 2013 22:39 GMT
#17
The medivac hellion marine timing also allows for a lot of mindgames during a series and can be carried out a number of ways. While dropping marines and doing the hellion runby is probably the most popular way, you can mix it up; simple hellion drop, full elevator if you scout no vision or even just 1a'ing a bunker in the front if you have reason to believe that he keeps most of his army in the main. I've seen forgg and other terrans use all of these to great effect.

All in all, it's a very versatile build that's safe and allows for a decent economy and varying levels of greed.
www.teamproperty.net | "You should hate losing, but you should never fear defeat." - 이윤열
9-BiT
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States1089 Posts
May 15 2013 22:58 GMT
#18
phase*
good guide, i'll take a look on ladder.
kwark_uk: @father_sc learn to play maybe?
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-15 23:30:10
May 15 2013 23:01 GMT
#19
On May 16 2013 07:58 9-BiT wrote:
phase*
good guide, i'll take a look on ladder.


Lol i guess u now know the dutch word for phase now indeed I edited what i could, but the pics i didnt do (yet).
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
BaaL`
Profile Joined May 2010
297 Posts
May 16 2013 00:47 GMT
#20
How does this handle 2-barracks reapers? It is not mentioned in the OP, and with only 2 marines before reactor it might have some issues with it. The hellions will get out fast, but are you ok until then?
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