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I analyzed the 4 tvt wins of forGG's games in WCS after seeing mass hellions and noticed he was 45 wins - 3 losses in tvt. He used the same build every game so lots of adaptations (and his mindset) i could analyze. I like to share the knowledge that i have obtained from that. The information below gives u his standard buildorders, his harras choices, adaptions and how he engages in tvt.
forGG’s life lessons
1. Never scv-scout
2. Do not use HOTS units or technology before 10 minutes
3. Use the same standard opener and early unitcomposition (phase 1 standard in image below) every game.
4. Build a maximum of 8 marines to harras and do not build tanks before 12 minutes, except if u need them i.e. to break an early contain.
5. Be aggressive and adapt to your opponent in a game.
Aim of the build
Aim for infrastructure :
3 CC’s with 6 gasses
3 factories with techlab
2 factories with reactor
1 starport wth a techlab
1 armory
Aim for unitcompososition is :
Alot of Blueflame hellions
Some Tanks (but not before 12:00 if u dont need too)
Some Vikings
1 Raven
Standard Buildorder & Strategy
For his buildorders see "phase 1 Standard" (and "phase 2 standard" of u are not harassed) in the image below. The nice part about phase 1 is that he doesnt need to scout anything because he can stop any form of aggresion with his unitcomposition.
![[image loading]](http://s17.postimg.org/ds65j30rj/forgg2.gif)
Standard early harras strategy is that forGG tries to drops the 8 marines in the main and tries a runby at the expo with the hellions at the same time.
Adaptions
Adaptions to buildorders and strategy are based opun what he encountered and mostly dependant of the type of 1st early harras by the opponent. It seems he always tries to stick with his aim of the build. But if he adapts, he mostly adapts unitproduction or harras but not his buildorders (except after an early hellbat- or WM-drop), as explained in the image below (red is the adaptation).
![[image loading]](http://s1.postimg.org/6piybjtsf/forgg.gif)
forGG's rules of engagements
1. BF-hellions against tanks is fine, so long there inbetween the sieged tanks so that the tanks kill themselves.
2. Against bio+tank u do not allways have too siege tanks, the mass BF hellions do enough AoE damage by themselves. In this way u can still abuse your mobility and the AoE from sieged tanks cant hurt your hellions when there not sieged.
3. Use PDD against marauders and HSM against thors.
Vods :
WCSEU1 forGG vs Strelok
WCSEU1 forGG vs MMA : time 3:01:00
WCSEU2 (after banshee/hellbatpatch) forGG vs Bunny
Replays (havent checked it yet but communitypointed these out so it must be good)
http://www.sc2win.com/players.php?/Forgg Replaypack #16, game 4 and maybe others.
What i learned from it as a non-master player
1. Mass Blueflame hellions are still very fun to play with
2. Hellions are still really good units, certainly when u hit critical mass they become really strong. The spare gas u have can go in other buildings, upgrades and airunits.
3. Play adaptive/aggresive to your opponents actions and composition : As this standard build with early armory and techlab on starport gives u the opportunity to do so! I.e. forGG was aggresive at the 7/10/13/16 minutemark in most of those games.
4. The chance is small that u do not have airsuperiority at a certain time, because most terrans will build more medivacs then forgg does. U can allways use pdd in an airbattle and switch the starport to a reactor to get 2x faster production when outnumbered just like forgg.
Howto stop early aggression (TL style not based on forGG games)
How to defend early reaper harras (8/8/8 or less aggresive)
How to defend proxy marauderrush
Updated thx to the comments till July 13th.
1. Edited pics and why he chose for the 5 banshee semi allin.
2. *phase
3. There were questions about early allins/early aggresion not seen in forgg games. Ive made an extra section (last section) concerning howto defend these types of early aggresion with this build. I wont put them in the content/images of original post because i think we should separate forGG actions/mindset/games with our thoughts.
4. Added 2nd gastiming and edited the images
5. Added replays thx to the efforts of the community!
6. Added WCSEU2 vods of bunny vs forgg.
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It's interesting but will this style will be enough against one of the Europeans top terran in the person of the Empire.Happy ? I'm not sure.
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Reminds me of iEchoic's 2 Fact 2 Port Hellion/Banshee. Solid transition from Fast expand into [Hellion/Banshee or Mech] into late game here imo.
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On May 16 2013 04:18 HanSomPa wrote:
Reminds me of iEchoic's 2 Fact 2 Port Hellion/Banshee. Solid transition from Fast expand into [Hellion/Banshee or Mech] into late game here imo.
Could be! The fase 1 unitcomposition is really solid, early hellbatdrops etc wont kill u I didnt like mech that much because it was slow, but this masshellionstyle isnt slow, its faster then bio
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On May 16 2013 04:13 ErrantKnight wrote:
It's interesting but will this style will be enough against one of the Europeans top terran in the person of the Empire.Happy ? I'm not sure.
45-3 mec.
so yeah I guess it will be enough.
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Can u add some WCS EU vods recently ? i'd be great for the thread
thanks for the awesome analyzing
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Hate to be that guy, but it's "phase" not "fase".
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On May 16 2013 05:36 Porishan wrote:
Can u add some WCS EU vods recently ? i'd be great for the thread
thanks for the awesome analyzing
Thx for the feedback! certainly because there free to watch still^^
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Northern Ireland27479 Posts
Enjoyed the layout you used, pretty cool. Will have a real proper read later I think
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ForGGeddon mentioned +1 to you sir. I also like how you bothered to make charts.
Never been a fan of mech but Strelok vs forgg made it look pretty cool. Could be tinkering with this in the next weeks.
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This build has been around for ages, and was the staple TvT build for so long for anyone doing mech.
15 gas, 2 marines -> reactor, CC, fact, switch after 2 more rounds of marines, starport, add 2nd gas -> medivac or viking/raven/viking, depending on what you want to accomplish.
The build is really old (it's still good though, mind you), what forgg shines at are the small nuances of it. Knowing what can punish what and when, very precisely.
EDIT: I'm also pretty sure that what he did on belshir vs MMA is not something he treats particularly standard. He knew he was really behind and that a macro game would not work out to his favor, so he realized a particular weaknes in this very specific scenario and managed to abuse it to eek out a win where using normal play would almost certainly lead to defeat.
The standard followup that you will see him do most of the time is 3rd expo, add 2nd and 3 fact and after that add your natural gases with armory and fact #4 and #5 following shortly as resources allow.
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On May 16 2013 06:18 herMan wrote:
ForGGeddon mentioned +1 to you sir. I also like how you bothered to make charts.
Never been a fan of mech but Strelok vs forgg made it look pretty cool. Could be tinkering with this in the next weeks.
Be sure to check the vods. Its his decisionmaking/adaptation that wins him the games, not the build itself (although the pretty standard wol-build gives u the opportunity to do so). U will mostly see (semi)proterrans preforming a build they practised alot. With forgg u see someone adapting to the gameflow more (thx to the opportunity he gave himself, thx to the early armory and techlabbed starport+other addons he has).
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On May 16 2013 06:22 gillon wrote:
This build has been around for ages, and was the staple TvT build for so long for anyone doing mech.
15 gas, 2 marines -> reactor, CC, fact, switch after 2 more rounds of marines, starport, add 2nd gas -> medivac or viking/raven/viking, depending on what you want to accomplish.
The build is really old (it's still good though, mind you), what forgg shines at are the small nuances of it. Knowing what can punish what and when, very precisely.
EDIT: I'm also pretty sure that what he did on belshir vs MMA is not something he treats particularly standard. He knew he was really behind and that a macro game would not work out to his favor, so he realized a particular weaknes in this very specific scenario and managed to abuse it to eek out a win where using normal play would almost certainly lead to defeat.
The standard followup that you will see him do most of the time is 3rd expo, add 2nd and 3 fact and after that add your natural gases with armory and fact #4 and #5 following shortly as resources allow.
Agreed, nice addon to the OP
Edit : I will edit the OP after the first 24h. So the OP will become more of an community-OP in the end i hope.
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On May 16 2013 06:23 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 06:18 herMan wrote:
ForGGeddon mentioned +1 to you sir. I also like how you bothered to make charts.
Never been a fan of mech but Strelok vs forgg made it look pretty cool. Could be tinkering with this in the next weeks. Be sure to check the vods. Its his decisionmaking/adaptation that wins him the games, not the build itself (although the pretty standard wol-build gives u the opportunity to do so). U will mostly see (semi)proterrans preforming a build they practised alot. With forgg u see someone adapting to the gameflow more (thx to the opportunity he gave himself, thx to the early armory and techlabbed starport+other addons he has).
Yeah you're correct, forgg struck gold by making that banshee and keeping it alive. He had no choice but to make tons of hellions since he was starving on gas.
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Big ForGG fan and it's nice to see he is making mech look exciting to play. Strelok's games bore me to tears. I couldn't believe how well that mass hellion style was faring against the tanks, quite crazy
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The medivac hellion marine timing also allows for a lot of mindgames during a series and can be carried out a number of ways. While dropping marines and doing the hellion runby is probably the most popular way, you can mix it up; simple hellion drop, full elevator if you scout no vision or even just 1a'ing a bunker in the front if you have reason to believe that he keeps most of his army in the main. I've seen forgg and other terrans use all of these to great effect.
All in all, it's a very versatile build that's safe and allows for a decent economy and varying levels of greed.
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phase*
good guide, i'll take a look on ladder.
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On May 16 2013 07:58 9-BiT wrote:
phase*
good guide, i'll take a look on ladder.
Lol i guess u now know the dutch word for phase now indeed I edited what i could, but the pics i didnt do (yet).
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How does this handle 2-barracks reapers? It is not mentioned in the OP, and with only 2 marines before reactor it might have some issues with it. The hellions will get out fast, but are you ok until then?
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EPT
