I analyzed the 4 tvt wins of forGG's games in WCS after seeing mass hellions and noticed he was 45 wins - 3 losses in tvt. He used the same build every game so lots of adaptations (and his mindset) i could analyze. I like to share the knowledge that i have obtained from that. The information below gives u his standard buildorders, his harras choices, adaptions and how he engages in tvt.
forGG’s life lessons
1. Never scv-scout 2. Do not use HOTS units or technology before 10 minutes 3. Use the same standard opener and early unitcomposition (phase 1 standard in image below) every game. 4. Build a maximum of 8 marines to harras and do not build tanks before 12 minutes, except if u need them i.e. to break an early contain. 5. Be aggressive and adapt to your opponent in a game.
Aim of the build
Aim for infrastructure : 3 CC’s with 6 gasses 3 factories with techlab 2 factories with reactor 1 starport wth a techlab 1 armory
Aim for unitcompososition is : Alot of Blueflame hellions Some Tanks (but not before 12:00 if u dont need too) Some Vikings 1 Raven
Standard Buildorder & Strategy For his buildorders see "phase 1 Standard" (and "phase 2 standard" of u are not harassed) in the image below. The nice part about phase 1 is that he doesnt need to scout anything because he can stop any form of aggresion with his unitcomposition.
Standard early harras strategy is that forGG tries to drops the 8 marines in the main and tries a runby at the expo with the hellions at the same time.
Adaptions
Adaptions to buildorders and strategy are based opun what he encountered and mostly dependant of the type of 1st early harras by the opponent. It seems he always tries to stick with his aim of the build. But if he adapts, he mostly adapts unitproduction or harras but not his buildorders (except after an early hellbat- or WM-drop), as explained in the image below (red is the adaptation).
forGG's rules of engagements
1. BF-hellions against tanks is fine, so long there inbetween the sieged tanks so that the tanks kill themselves. 2. Against bio+tank u do not allways have too siege tanks, the mass BF hellions do enough AoE damage by themselves. In this way u can still abuse your mobility and the AoE from sieged tanks cant hurt your hellions when there not sieged. 3. Use PDD against marauders and HSM against thors.
Replays (havent checked it yet but communitypointed these out so it must be good) http://www.sc2win.com/players.php?/ForggReplaypack #16, game 4 and maybe others.
What i learned from it as a non-master player
1. Mass Blueflame hellions are still very fun to play with 2. Hellions are still really good units, certainly when u hit critical mass they become really strong. The spare gas u have can go in other buildings, upgrades and airunits. 3. Play adaptive/aggresive to your opponents actions and composition : As this standard build with early armory and techlab on starport gives u the opportunity to do so! I.e. forGG was aggresive at the 7/10/13/16 minutemark in most of those games. 4. The chance is small that u do not have airsuperiority at a certain time, because most terrans will build more medivacs then forgg does. U can allways use pdd in an airbattle and switch the starport to a reactor to get 2x faster production when outnumbered just like forgg.
Howto stop early aggression (TL style not based on forGG games)
Updated thx to the comments till July 13th. 1. Edited pics and why he chose for the 5 banshee semi allin. 2. *phase 3. There were questions about early allins/early aggresion not seen in forgg games. Ive made an extra section (last section) concerning howto defend these types of early aggresion with this build. I wont put them in the content/images of original post because i think we should separate forGG actions/mindset/games with our thoughts. 4. Added 2nd gastiming and edited the images 5. Added replays thx to the efforts of the community! 6. Added WCSEU2 vods of bunny vs forgg.
On May 16 2013 04:13 ErrantKnight wrote: It's interesting but will this style will be enough against one of the Europeans top terran in the person of the Empire.Happy ? I'm not sure.
45 wins 3 losses, i think so (teaja, MMA, strelok and happy mutiple times)
On May 16 2013 04:18 HanSomPa wrote: Reminds me of iEchoic's 2 Fact 2 Port Hellion/Banshee. Solid transition from Fast expand into [Hellion/Banshee or Mech] into late game here imo.
Could be! The fase 1 unitcomposition is really solid, early hellbatdrops etc wont kill u I didnt like mech that much because it was slow, but this masshellionstyle isnt slow, its faster then bio
On May 16 2013 04:13 ErrantKnight wrote: It's interesting but will this style will be enough against one of the Europeans top terran in the person of the Empire.Happy ? I'm not sure.
This build has been around for ages, and was the staple TvT build for so long for anyone doing mech.
15 gas, 2 marines -> reactor, CC, fact, switch after 2 more rounds of marines, starport, add 2nd gas -> medivac or viking/raven/viking, depending on what you want to accomplish.
The build is really old (it's still good though, mind you), what forgg shines at are the small nuances of it. Knowing what can punish what and when, very precisely.
EDIT: I'm also pretty sure that what he did on belshir vs MMA is not something he treats particularly standard. He knew he was really behind and that a macro game would not work out to his favor, so he realized a particular weaknes in this very specific scenario and managed to abuse it to eek out a win where using normal play would almost certainly lead to defeat.
The standard followup that you will see him do most of the time is 3rd expo, add 2nd and 3 fact and after that add your natural gases with armory and fact #4 and #5 following shortly as resources allow.
On May 16 2013 06:18 herMan wrote: ForGGeddon mentioned +1 to you sir. I also like how you bothered to make charts.
Never been a fan of mech but Strelok vs forgg made it look pretty cool. Could be tinkering with this in the next weeks.
Be sure to check the vods. Its his decisionmaking/adaptation that wins him the games, not the build itself (although the pretty standard wol-build gives u the opportunity to do so). U will mostly see (semi)proterrans preforming a build they practised alot. With forgg u see someone adapting to the gameflow more (thx to the opportunity he gave himself, thx to the early armory and techlabbed starport+other addons he has).
On May 16 2013 06:22 gillon wrote: This build has been around for ages, and was the staple TvT build for so long for anyone doing mech.
15 gas, 2 marines -> reactor, CC, fact, switch after 2 more rounds of marines, starport, add 2nd gas -> medivac or viking/raven/viking, depending on what you want to accomplish.
The build is really old (it's still good though, mind you), what forgg shines at are the small nuances of it. Knowing what can punish what and when, very precisely.
EDIT: I'm also pretty sure that what he did on belshir vs MMA is not something he treats particularly standard. He knew he was really behind and that a macro game would not work out to his favor, so he realized a particular weaknes in this very specific scenario and managed to abuse it to eek out a win where using normal play would almost certainly lead to defeat.
The standard followup that you will see him do most of the time is 3rd expo, add 2nd and 3 fact and after that add your natural gases with armory and fact #4 and #5 following shortly as resources allow.
Agreed, nice addon to the OP
Edit : I will edit the OP after the first 24h. So the OP will become more of an community-OP in the end i hope.
On May 16 2013 06:18 herMan wrote: ForGGeddon mentioned +1 to you sir. I also like how you bothered to make charts.
Never been a fan of mech but Strelok vs forgg made it look pretty cool. Could be tinkering with this in the next weeks.
Be sure to check the vods. Its his decisionmaking/adaptation that wins him the games, not the build itself (although the pretty standard wol-build gives u the opportunity to do so). U will mostly see (semi)proterrans preforming a build they practised alot. With forgg u see someone adapting to the gameflow more (thx to the opportunity he gave himself, thx to the early armory and techlabbed starport+other addons he has).
Yeah you're correct, forgg struck gold by making that banshee and keeping it alive. He had no choice but to make tons of hellions since he was starving on gas.
Big ForGG fan and it's nice to see he is making mech look exciting to play. Strelok's games bore me to tears. I couldn't believe how well that mass hellion style was faring against the tanks, quite crazy
The medivac hellion marine timing also allows for a lot of mindgames during a series and can be carried out a number of ways. While dropping marines and doing the hellion runby is probably the most popular way, you can mix it up; simple hellion drop, full elevator if you scout no vision or even just 1a'ing a bunker in the front if you have reason to believe that he keeps most of his army in the main. I've seen forgg and other terrans use all of these to great effect.
All in all, it's a very versatile build that's safe and allows for a decent economy and varying levels of greed.
How does this handle 2-barracks reapers? It is not mentioned in the OP, and with only 2 marines before reactor it might have some issues with it. The hellions will get out fast, but are you ok until then?
On May 16 2013 09:47 BaaL` wrote: How does this handle 2-barracks reapers? It is not mentioned in the OP, and with only 2 marines before reactor it might have some issues with it. The hellions will get out fast, but are you ok until then?
Howto defend 8/8/8 in tvt! and dont forget that building a bunker +factory before your 2nd CC if needed to stop an allin is worth the 25 minerals u loose after salvaging it. This buildorder stops early aggression, i didnt say allins. But after u stop the 8/8/8 or weaker reaperopener, the guidelines/aim of the build stays practically the same (phase 1 and phase 2 when going for late game).
On May 16 2013 09:47 BaaL` wrote: How does this handle 2-barracks reapers? It is not mentioned in the OP, and with only 2 marines before reactor it might have some issues with it. The hellions will get out fast, but are you ok until then?
You will be able to hold it, the 3rd and 4th marine should come out right as 2 reapers reach your base, with some micro you should be able to keep your marines alive.
On May 16 2013 09:47 BaaL` wrote: How does this handle 2-barracks reapers? It is not mentioned in the OP, and with only 2 marines before reactor it might have some issues with it. The hellions will get out fast, but are you ok until then?
Howto defend 8/8/8 in tvt! and dont forget that building a bunker +factory before your 2nd CC if needed to stop an allin is worth the 25 minerals u loose after salvaging it. This buildorder stops early aggression, i didnt say allins. But after u stop the 8/8/8 or weaker reaperopener, the guidelines/aim of the build stays practically the same (phase 1 and phase 2 when going for late game).
I don't mean 8-8-8 though, I mean 12 barracks 14(?) barracks reapers, followed by CC. It is not a cheese by any means, it's a standard macro opening. But like someone else said, you might get 4 marines in time. On certain maps though they will have a hard time vs reapers (Neo Planet for example).
On May 16 2013 09:47 BaaL` wrote: How does this handle 2-barracks reapers? It is not mentioned in the OP, and with only 2 marines before reactor it might have some issues with it. The hellions will get out fast, but are you ok until then?
Howto defend 8/8/8 in tvt! and dont forget that building a bunker +factory before your 2nd CC if needed to stop an allin is worth the 25 minerals u loose after salvaging it. This buildorder stops early aggression, i didnt say allins. But after u stop the 8/8/8 or weaker reaperopener, the guidelines/aim of the build stays practically the same (phase 1 and phase 2 when going for late game).
I don't mean 8-8-8 though, I mean 12 barracks 14(?) barracks reapers, followed by CC. It is not a cheese by any means, it's a standard macro opening. But like someone else said, you might get 4 marines in time. On certain maps though they will have a hard time vs reapers (Neo Planet for example).
Not a big deal, but give me a replay were someone doing a forgg similar opening got defeated by late double reapers and ill analyze it!^^
Edit : And ofcourse u will loose some stuff but he loses certainly more then 100 gas and missed out minerals! as forGG uses only gas on buildings and flyers untill very late in the game, u will be way ahead in the tech department and your harras around 7 minutes has got more chances of doing real eco damage. 2nd, i am not a fan of reapers in tvt (im biased), i believe they are loosy gasheavy units that delay everything. That 50 gas early translates to alot more stuff later in midgame and chances are u will loose some reapers. Yes u can scout, but what u want to scout for so early what cant be scouted around 7 minutes with a drop in his main and for the 50 gas it costs the dps really sux.
On May 16 2013 09:47 BaaL` wrote: How does this handle 2-barracks reapers? It is not mentioned in the OP, and with only 2 marines before reactor it might have some issues with it. The hellions will get out fast, but are you ok until then?
Howto defend 8/8/8 in tvt! and dont forget that building a bunker +factory before your 2nd CC if needed to stop an allin is worth the 25 minerals u loose after salvaging it. This buildorder stops early aggression, i didnt say allins. But after u stop the 8/8/8 or weaker reaperopener, the guidelines/aim of the build stays practically the same (phase 1 and phase 2 when going for late game).
I don't mean 8-8-8 though, I mean 12 barracks 14(?) barracks reapers, followed by CC. It is not a cheese by any means, it's a standard macro opening. But like someone else said, you might get 4 marines in time. On certain maps though they will have a hard time vs reapers (Neo Planet for example).
Not a big deal, but give me a replay were someone doing a forgg similar opening got defeated by late double reapers and ill analyze it!^^
Even on Neo Planet S your 3rd and 4th marine will still pop out in time. fought a 12/12 2 rax reaper with one of the rax proxied and still held it off.
Hmm ok well I will try it in some practice games with friends
Beside that very nice OP, only note I would make is that the 5 banshee response to cloak was probably impromptu, I mean at least the number of banshee is.
On May 16 2013 10:33 BaaL` wrote: Hmm ok well I will try it in some practice games with friends
Beside that very nice OP, only note I would make is that the 5 banshee response to cloak was probably impromptu, I mean at least the number of banshee is.
Well im also still fiddling with his style (its more of a style then a build really), but im learning.
And i agree that how i formulated that allin, was a bit clumby. Ill edit the OP tommorow with all the feedback, addons and discussions. The OP will be be a summary of how TL's community has broken forGG's brain up in little tiny segments
To finalize everything. There are some more situations i didnt see forGG handle, but i want to add them in the guide anyway. It would be our gift to forGG
Proxymarauderrush At the time this hits 3:40, u have 2 marines, walloff depot/depot/rax is complete and ur reactor is just building. The aggresor has 1 marauder+1 or more scv's. Howto counter this proxymarauder:
1. Cancel reactor asap (u will loose it anyway) 2. Pull some scv's to tank and the 2 marines and chase the marauders down the ramp. Yes most will die, but thats ok. 3. Immediatly build a bunker at the ramp.Place rax behind it and start building marines.
Can some masterplayer confim this is the best way to handle proxymarauder given the situation at 3:40 (he 1 marauder+1 scv or more : you have 2 marines and scv's)?
Airsuperiority And airsuperiority ill add too. forGG allways wanted/worked too airsuperiority in those 4 games. Because he doesnt build more then 1 medivac, i believe he will allmost allways have airsupiriority. But lets say u dont have it, ill add something about that aswell (switch starport, build extra starport, use pdd to get airsuperiority with less vikings etc.).
His allin with 5 banshees and alot of hellions What was his thoughtproces when he chose for the allin. I ask this because some posters had a different opinion about why he chose for an allin given the situation.
What are your opinions about it? is it the cloaked banshee, that gave him the idea MMA didnt have many tanks or gasheavy units except banshees. or was it he saw he was behind economically and it was too hard to catch up? Or something else? Spam opinions plz, i want to guide to be accurate! Why the f&^% did he chose the allin?
I think the 5 banshees was at least in part because he felt he was behind (he was). It is very risky to do otherwise, you could easily get caught out if your opponent made more vikings than you and/or a raven.
Thank you for breaking down ForGGs decision making and reactions. This build is actually the same opener that's been used quite often since WOL and HoTS beta. I recall MVP using this quite often in IEM. It's really great though how you broke down the composition and reactions. Will be very helpful.
On May 16 2013 22:34 govie wrote: Proxymarauderrush At the time this hits 3:40, u have 2 marines, walloff depot/depot/rax is complete and ur reactor is just building. The aggresor has 1 marauder+1 or more scv's. Howto counter this proxymarauder:
1. Cancel reactor asap (u will loose it anyway) 2. Pull some scv's to tank and the 2 marines and chase the marauders down the ramp. Yes most will die, but thats ok. 3. Immediatly build a bunker at the ramp.Place rax behind it and start building marines.
Can some masterplayer confim this is the best way to handle proxymarauder given the situation at 3:40 (he 1 marauder+1 scv or more : you have 2 marines and scv's)?
Confirmed, except moving back the rax is unnecessary.
On May 16 2013 22:34 govie wrote: His allin with 5 banshees and alot of hellions What was his thoughtproces when he chose for the allin. I ask this because some posters had a different opinion about why he chose for an allin given the situation.
What are your opinions about it? is it the cloaked banshee, that gave him the idea MMA didnt have many tanks or gasheavy units except banshees. or was it he saw he was behind economically and it was too hard to catch up? Or something else? Spam opinions plz, i want to guide to be accurate! Why the f&^% did he chose the allin?
He went this all-in because he was impossibly behind in a normal game due to the econ damage he had suffered from MMA's Cloak Banshees, so he chose to exploit MMA's low Marine count (since he was also producing Marauders and Tanks) and his gamble worked due to MMA not having a Bunker + having a drop with 8 Marines in movement towards ForGG's main when ForGG arrived in his natural.
On May 17 2013 20:27 Algis wrote: I can't find when he takes his 2nd main gas in your bo.
On May 16 2013 22:34 govie wrote: Proxymarauderrush At the time this hits 3:40, u have 2 marines, walloff depot/depot/rax is complete and ur reactor is just building. The aggresor has 1 marauder+1 or more scv's. Howto counter this proxymarauder:
1. Cancel reactor asap (u will loose it anyway) 2. Pull some scv's to tank and the 2 marines and chase the marauders down the ramp. Yes most will die, but thats ok. 3. Immediatly build a bunker at the ramp.Place rax behind it and start building marines.
Can some masterplayer confim this is the best way to handle proxymarauder given the situation at 3:40 (he 1 marauder+1 scv or more : you have 2 marines and scv's)?
Confirmed, except moving back the rax is unnecessary.
On May 16 2013 22:34 govie wrote: His allin with 5 banshees and alot of hellions What was his thoughtproces when he chose for the allin. I ask this because some posters had a different opinion about why he chose for an allin given the situation.
What are your opinions about it? is it the cloaked banshee, that gave him the idea MMA didnt have many tanks or gasheavy units except banshees. or was it he saw he was behind economically and it was too hard to catch up? Or something else? Spam opinions plz, i want to guide to be accurate! Why the f&^% did he chose the allin?
He went this all-in because he was impossibly behind in a normal game due to the econ damage he had suffered from MMA's Cloak Banshees, so he chose to exploit MMA's low Marine count (since he was also producing Marauders and Tanks) and his gamble worked due to MMA not having a Bunker + having a drop with 8 Marines in movement towards ForGG's main when ForGG arrived in his natural.
Seems forGG is gonna try and crush Lucifron next! This is an epic matchup. One of EU best allready established terrans against the semi EU/KR tvt-king I will update the OP after his wins and/or losses.
On May 18 2013 21:47 Grovbolle wrote: Please give credit to me for coining the term ForGGeddon :D
Lol so how was the term ForGGeddon invented, I keep on wondering. Even the commentators have adopted it now! Although khaleris seems to think its ForGGmageddon xD
I'm really looking forward for the LucifroN ForGG match in WCS ro8, ForGG's win ratio is incredible but on the other hand LucifroN is 6-0 in ATC TvT's and he 2-0'd Happy and MVP at WCS.
On May 20 2013 03:05 [7x]laV wrote: u forget about 2nd gas
Indeed my apologies. Ill put that in there aswell when i update it today/tomorrow Seems he takes it after he starts his first flyer (medivac). I think first flyer is a better marker then supply as an indicator. This is logical and times out pretty well as approx 1 gas is needed for continious starportproduction (factory/rax is minerals only) and the 2nd gas is for producing 2 more factories
On May 20 2013 02:25 SmoNKa wrote: I'm really looking forward for the LucifroN ForGG match in WCS ro8, ForGG's win ratio is incredible but on the other hand LucifroN is 6-0 in ATC TvT's and he 2-0'd Happy and MVP at WCS.
Indeed. I hope lucifron does that proxy thor allin with or without scv-pull that hits around 7:00 minute mark. I havent seen forGG scout very much around his base in those 4 wins, so it could be succesfull against him (if he sticks to his compositions and build early, which i suspect he will do).. But then again forGG knowes lucifron and probably will scout for proxies against him. and forgg has insane micro.. will be fun to watch!
Killer guide, been having huge success with this style on ladder. This is the safest feeling macro mech that I have played. Not only are you able to be a little aggressive with your hellions but the followup is solid and establishes you really well on 3 bases. I've also been crushing cheeses and reaper builds with this, thanks govie!
On May 20 2013 08:39 Soldier92 wrote: Killer guide, been having huge success with this style on ladder. This is the safest feeling macro mech that I have played. Not only are you able to be a little aggressive with your hellions but the followup is solid and establishes you really well on 3 bases. I've also been crushing cheeses and reaper builds with this, thanks govie!
Thank TL community, as alot of peeps contributed in there posts to the OP!
I havent had much succes with it myself yet. But i know its because the constant harras/pressure that you need to do (or the build is less effective), damages my macro more then the opponent and im new to mech! It seems my mechanics aint good enough yet and need to practise more multitasking! But that doesnt keep me from updating this thread
1 question : Have u with this build in a game got thordropped-allin lucifronstyle (marines/scv's/thor around 7:00 minutes and could u hold that and how? Its the only cheese i cant confirm that is holdable without scouting it, that is why i ask this question.
On May 20 2013 10:05 Soldier92 wrote: It's embarassing to admit but I've lost to the lucifron thor rush every time I've encountered it on ladder so far, haha.
Yes thought so. Looks like a good allin. Did u scout it or no?
How do you deal with hellbat drops doing this build? I was just producing vikings and making hellions and trying to outmicro my opponent but the problem is that you can be very spread out when you are on 2 bases.. They just seem to keep dropping hellbats until I mess up and lose scvs... It is getting very frustrating.
If they really insist on dropping again and again, you should put a bunker and a turret per mineral line, + some hellions. You should be pretty safe and be able to kill him on a counter if he really goes all out on this I think?
On July 11 2013 23:37 Bojas wrote: How do you deal with hellbat drops doing this build? I was just producing vikings and making hellions and trying to outmicro my opponent but the problem is that you can be very spread out when you are on 2 bases.. They just seem to keep dropping hellbats until I mess up and lose scvs... It is getting very frustrating.
Thanks to the new nerf/buff patch hellbats needs 1 more shot to kill scv's. It should make things easier for u to fend off. Also see less hellbats and more mines/banshees from ur opponent. I think banshee + 2 mines is a great way to keep harrasing at ur opponents base or fending of some drop at your main, u will be less spreadout. I cant predict whats gonna happen after the patch but i do know this build gives u every unit except thors and BC's early., basically says it all Keep the buildorder and just go with the unitcompositionflow when on ladder, 1 cycle of 2 mines instead of 2 hellions or 1 banshee instead of 1 raven can change alot in the damage dealt (offensively and defensively), but they dont change the general build, buildorder and unitcomposition that much solong there not massed..
On July 09 2013 23:02 sorrowptoss wrote: Considering my winrate in TvT is like 40%, I don't have much to lose and I'll give this a shot. Cool build and guide.
U can follow it strictly but u can also just take the buildorder and change the unitcomposition slowly. Patches change unitcompositions much. After mastering the basic buildorder and playstyle try mixing it up a bit with 2 widowmines and 1 banshee (with or without cloak) depending on what u scout. 2 less hellions wont change that much in the overal build and the banshee is nice to have too. Certainly with the new nerf and buff patch, banshees, hellions and mines are just as nice as hellbats atm for harrasment. U can mix things up if ya want to. Many possibilities u can utilize, certainly if u can do micro, multitask and scouting fairly well.
On July 09 2013 21:35 Incognoto wrote: This is a great and well-written guide!
I wish people would stop quoting that 45-3 ratio, literally over half of those maps were against much weaker players whom he would beat with any build and even any race.
Nevertheless, awesome strategy analysis, thanks man :D
On July 13 2013 08:21 mechengineer123 wrote: I wish people would stop quoting that 45-3 ratio, literally over half of those maps were against much weaker players whom he would beat with any build and even any race.
Nevertheless, awesome strategy analysis, thanks man :D
To be honest : ForGG is 54–8 (87%) in games and 30–3 (91%) in matches. (this was after wcs global finals where he lost to mvp, i wrote tis before the final weekend of wcs eu). I dont agree with ur analysis as all these terran opponents are wcs caliber.
On July 13 2013 08:21 mechengineer123 wrote: I wish people would stop quoting that 45-3 ratio, literally over half of those maps were against much weaker players whom he would beat with any build and even any race.
Nevertheless, awesome strategy analysis, thanks man :D
To be honest : ForGG is 54–8 (87%) in games and 30–3 (91%) in matches. (this was after wcs global finals where he lost to mvp, i wrote tis before the final weekend of wcs eu). I dont agree with ur analysis as all these terran opponents are wcs caliber.
Out of that list, at the very least morrow, cloud, dragon, fuzer, goody, illusion are all nowhere near his level. The full stats also include wins against Lau, hG, TiB, MarinLord, Satiini (13-0 against those last guys in total). He would most likely 13-0 them if he played Random, too.
On July 13 2013 08:21 mechengineer123 wrote: I wish people would stop quoting that 45-3 ratio, literally over half of those maps were against much weaker players whom he would beat with any build and even any race.
Nevertheless, awesome strategy analysis, thanks man :D
To be honest : ForGG is 54–8 (87%) in games and 30–3 (91%) in matches. (this was after wcs global finals where he lost to mvp, i wrote tis before the final weekend of wcs eu). I dont agree with ur analysis as all these terran opponents are wcs caliber.
Out of that list, at the very least morrow, cloud, dragon, fuzer, goody, illusion are all nowhere near his level. The full stats also include wins against Lau, hG, TiB, MarinLord, Satiini (13-0 against those last guys in total). He would most likely 13-0 them if he played Random, too.
Indeed, but u can judge every good player this way. Stephano and innovation crushes lesser players too, its part of being top pro caliber to fight against lesser players....
On July 13 2013 08:21 mechengineer123 wrote: I wish people would stop quoting that 45-3 ratio, literally over half of those maps were against much weaker players whom he would beat with any build and even any race.
Nevertheless, awesome strategy analysis, thanks man :D
To be honest : ForGG is 54–8 (87%) in games and 30–3 (91%) in matches. (this was after wcs global finals where he lost to mvp, i wrote tis before the final weekend of wcs eu). I dont agree with ur analysis as all these terran opponents are wcs caliber.
Out of that list, at the very least morrow, cloud, dragon, fuzer, goody, illusion are all nowhere near his level. The full stats also include wins against Lau, hG, TiB, MarinLord, Satiini (13-0 against those last guys in total). He would most likely 13-0 them if he played Random, too.
Indeed, but u can judge every good player this way. Stephano and innovation crushes lesser players too, its part of being top pro caliber to fight against lesser players....
To further Govie's point, the real message here is that ForGG is a TvT beast with this strat and enjoys amazing success with it. Apollo and Kaeleris say so much in the WCS vods. Regardless of how people quibble the exact numbers, it doesnt really change things.
What are people doing for army control and hotkeys? It seems to me, that there's a lot to control here. I'd argue that it could be harder than TvP.
For example, last night I was watching ForGG's stream, and there was so much going on. He's doing this dance with vikings, raven maintaining air control, hellions mopping up marine anti-air, banshees munching scvs in turret lines, and then two or three tanks getting positioned to support. It was great to watch, but intimidating at the same time.
On July 16 2013 01:02 Smackzilla wrote: What are people doing for army control and hotkeys? It seems to me, that there's a lot to control here. I'd argue that it could be harder than TvP.
For example, last night I was watching ForGG's stream, and there was so much going on. He's doing this dance with vikings, raven maintaining air control, hellions mopping up marine anti-air, banshees munching scvs in turret lines, and then two or three tanks getting positioned to support. It was great to watch, but intimidating at the same time.
Agreed! It is not the build that wins him games its his control and descecionmaking. But what i do is as follows.
Early game (until tankproduction) 1. Hellions 2. Marine medivac 3. Air (or a single banshee early) 4. extra group which i never really use.
Mid/endgame (when u are building tanks) 1. Ground army 2. Tanks 3. Air 4. extra group which i never really use.
But i am not a particular good terran in execution. I bet a masters could advice u and me better. Most of the time i am allready happy that ive made it to mid/end stage^^ So if a master could enlighten us with unitcontrol forgg style i will edit OP, guide is gettin better everyday
On July 16 2013 01:02 Smackzilla wrote: What are people doing for army control and hotkeys? It seems to me, that there's a lot to control here. I'd argue that it could be harder than TvP.
For example, last night I was watching ForGG's stream, and there was so much going on. He's doing this dance with vikings, raven maintaining air control, hellions mopping up marine anti-air, banshees munching scvs in turret lines, and then two or three tanks getting positioned to support. It was great to watch, but intimidating at the same time.
Agreed! It is not the build that wins him games its his control and descecionmaking. But what i do is as follows.
Early game (until tankproduction) 1. Hellions 2. Marine medivac 3. Air (or a single banshee early) 4. extra group which i never really use.
Mid/endgame (when u are building tanks) 1. Ground army 2. Tanks 3. Air 4. extra group which i never really use.
But i am not a particular good terran in execution. I bet a masters could advice u and me better. Most of the time i am allready happy that ive made it to mid/end stage^^ So if a master could enlighten us with unitcontrol forgg style i will edit OP, guide is gettin better everyday
A few thoughts: 1) I'm concerned with the single air group and tabbing for abilities, e.g. do I want to cloak my banshees or PDD with my raven. Also, what about attacking with air and accidentally suiciding your raven into your enemies? 2) I also wonder if a tank-only group is necessary. For example, if tanks are unseiged, you probably want them moving with your hellions. If you need to siege, no problem, I believe tanks have priority. Once sieged, should can still dart your hellions around with the ground control group; sieged tanks aren't going anywhere.
This may be a question about mech in general since I've only recently started since playing bio/biomech since 2010. But when do you make the switch to air, if ever? It seems extra ambiguous in a mech vs mech game, since it seems you get fewer vikings in this build compared to other mech builds.
On July 16 2013 18:49 halpimcat wrote: This may be a question about mech in general since I've only recently started since playing bio/biomech since 2010. But when do you make the switch to air, if ever? It seems extra ambiguous in a mech vs mech game, since it seems you get fewer vikings in this build compared to other mech builds.
If u play it out right u will allways have more or equal vikings then ur opponent, for sure. After the raven, u can get a reactor on the starport if u see your opponent trying the regain aircontrol. But most terrans go for some medivacs early, that will put them behind in the vikingcount for a long time.
U dont need to switch to air in tvt when playing mech (except vikingsproduction) and facing BC's if u dont want too. Watch fantasy vs flash air vs mech. Fantasy builds alot of mines and they shred BC's like there shitty units
Personally, in my platinum league, when the opponent switch to air it's not a problem, even if I didn't see it coming, I stop making hellions/hellbats and tanks, and I make thors and mass mines instead (with fast burrow). Mines>BC
On July 16 2013 17:28 govie wrote: BTW tonight chances for forgg vs bunny (maybe). Or atleast i hope so. We can see what the patch influenced in forgg's build/tactics.
On July 16 2013 17:28 govie wrote: BTW tonight chances for forgg vs bunny (maybe). Or atleast i hope so. We can see what the patch influenced in forgg's build/tactics.
I have added the vods to the OP. Thx m8 That 2nd game was bull from bunny. But the first one was ok although bansheemicro from bunny was a bit poor.
Seems like forgg does go banshees+cloak, if he spots one and i guess to pick of tanks and stuff if they follow the bansheeharras up (because he doesnt scout so he doesnt know). To bad we didnt saw a strong banshee expand against forgg, as we all know we see that alot on ladder. But still.. when seeing banshee get one yourself seems logical when u dont scout
Hopefully we can see his tvt some more here and there.
So I finally got around to checking out ForGG vs Bunny @ WCS2. In the first game, the tank pushes looked so scary. It seems like you'd need great control to hold it off. Since I don't have great control, has anyone considered incorporating a little earlier gas into the build to get a tank of your own out?
Also, I noticed that he also skipped the medivac and went straight to viking and then raven. I also believe I've seen that in his stream. Does the represent a fundamental change in his build as a response to the banshee buff?
On July 29 2013 04:06 Smackzilla wrote: So I finally got around to checking out ForGG vs Bunny @ WCS2. In the first game, the tank pushes looked so scary. It seems like you'd need great control to hold it off. Since I don't have great control, has anyone considered incorporating a little earlier gas into the build to get a tank of your own out?
Also, I noticed that he also skipped the medivac and went straight to viking and then raven. I also believe I've seen that in his stream. Does the represent a fundamental change in his build as a response to the banshee buff?
In my experiences with facing cloaked banshee using this build(I use it almost every game) banshees are easy to hold off. Scan the main once your 2nd OC finishes, and if you scout or feel that he's going cloaked banshee, you start your eng bay, get your viking, 2 widow mines and then a raven. The build actually times out perfectly where you can start your 2 widow mines and then you still have enough gas to get your raven. So usually the banshee is completely shut down. As for the tank push, that's the hard part, and what I'd recommend is just to keep producing helions. Try and get a good engagement where you get a good shot off on the marines, pulling SCVS along with landing vikings and auto turrets since he's one basing should do the trick. You won't have enough time to get a tank to defend, and even if you switch the factory on to the tech lab, you just won't have enough units to defend. Edit:If I scout that he's going bio, I get the medivac, if I scout that he's going for some time of 1 base build, I'll skip the medivac in favor of the viking and raven for the defense.
On July 29 2013 04:06 Smackzilla wrote: So I finally got around to checking out ForGG vs Bunny @ WCS2. In the first game, the tank pushes looked so scary. It seems like you'd need great control to hold it off. Since I don't have great control, has anyone considered incorporating a little earlier gas into the build to get a tank of your own out?
Also, I noticed that he also skipped the medivac and went straight to viking and then raven. I also believe I've seen that in his stream. Does the represent a fundamental change in his build as a response to the banshee buff?
In my experiences with facing cloaked banshee using this build(I use it almost every game) banshees are easy to hold off. Scan the main once your 2nd OC finishes, and if you scout or feel that he's going cloaked banshee, you start your eng bay, get your viking, 2 widow mines and then a raven. The build actually times out perfectly where you can start your 2 widow mines and then you still have enough gas to get your raven. So usually the banshee is completely shut down. As for the tank push, that's the hard part, and what I'd recommend is just to keep producing helions. Try and get a good engagement where you get a good shot off on the marines, pulling SCVS along with landing vikings and auto turrets since he's one basing should do the trick. You won't have enough time to get a tank to defend, and even if you switch the factory on to the tech lab, you just won't have enough units to defend. Edit:If I scout that he's going bio, I get the medivac, if I scout that he's going for some time of 1 base build, I'll skip the medivac in favor of the viking and raven for the defense.
When they push early with tanks. Build a banshee and kill the marines with the hellions. Thin the marinecount so your bansjee can deal with the tanks.
Also the raven is pretty powerfull against early pushes. If u can drop 2 turrets (10 dps a piece is 20 dps extra in total with a bigger healthbar then marines) against an early push u got alot of extra dps.. next to the AOE of the hellions it will mean u can hold off much more and loose less. Ravens are worth it in tvt, certainly with the newpatch and the importance of airsuperiority..Demuslim on his stream said he lost against avilo just because he forgot to use the 2 turrets at the right time. Certainly earlygame two turrets can save your life.
@LilSighKoh Those adjustments seem to make a lot of sense. I'll try them out.
@Govie So what adjustments are you making nowadays given the banshee buff? Are you skipping the medivac (e.g. viking > raven > viking), and if so, what sort of early game aggression are you doing?
On July 30 2013 01:29 Smackzilla wrote: @LilSighKoh Those adjustments seem to make a lot of sense. I'll try them out.
@Govie So what adjustments are you making nowadays given the banshee buff? Are you skipping the medivac (e.g. viking > raven > viking), and if so, what sort of early game aggression are you doing?
Im not high level enough yet to fully get most out of the unitcomp.. so no, i dont do anything different since the patch. Im no pro, just an amateur
1. If i see a 2nd CC i will certainly build a medivac and try to harras with marines and hellions. This because the banshee will allways hit later then marine/hellion drop/elevator when both players go for 2nd CC.
2. Banshee hits around the same time and cloakresearch takes just as long as it used to, prepatch. 1 medivac 1 viking and 1 raven would surfice as i see it. After the raven u could go for a banshee if u spotted a banshee, because a banshee will help against any followup aggression off 1 basebanshee like tankpushes etc. Most players try to overextend the harras when they have invested so much in it (late 2nd cc). So a banshee of your own helps negaiting that 2nd strong harras i.e. tankmarinepush.
On July 30 2013 01:56 Smackzilla wrote: @Govie How/when/where are you scouting the 2nd CC?
As stated im not good enough to get most out of unitcomp, so i scv-scout. Not that it gives alot of info, but i do it.. im sorry. its just that im not a nextterranbonja.. just a amove kinda noob, so i need some sort of scouting right? I go slow.. slow for oldies
Using this build, I've been scanning around 5:30 - 6 min (I think, before my port is done anyway). If I see their tech is faster than mine (faster port or whatever) I pull my forces into the main and prepare for drops, and get viking instead of medivac. If I see banshee tech, I throw down an engy and turrets. I haven't had any real troubles with banshees using this build. The tank push / tank drops can be a pain though. As govie said, make good use of your raven, it can be really strong in the early game.
I was SCV scouting for a while but I find usually it is just walled off and impossible to tell if they are 1-base attacking or expanding in their main, so now I just scan instead.
It was amazing to see forgg break a contain and destroy strelok with it. So, I adopted the build, and it was pretty amazing. Plus it was a really fun midgame transition. But the build kept failing in weird ways. Probably because it is so gimmicky.
In this first replay, I easily defend the reaper harass, and do some economic damage to his nat, but then he continuously rallies bio to my base and after a really frustrating back and forth, takes me out.
In the third replay, I modify the build to try and get a raven out quicker. I guess this puts me behind a little though, and even though I kill a bunch of his scvs with a runby, my bad macro means I don't have enought to defend his response push (though I probably could have done a better job of it).
So, any comments? Is there something I should be doing to make it work, or should I just switch to a different build? BF hellions seem so much fun and a nice break from hellbat-tank monotony.
On July 30 2013 03:14 teuthida wrote: Using this build, I've been scanning around 5:30 - 6 min (I think, before my port is done anyway). If I see their tech is faster than mine (faster port or whatever) I pull my forces into the main and prepare for drops, and get viking instead of medivac. If I see banshee tech, I throw down an engy and turrets. I haven't had any real troubles with banshees using this build. The tank push / tank drops can be a pain though. As govie said, make good use of your raven, it can be really strong in the early game.
I was SCV scouting for a while but I find usually it is just walled off and impossible to tell if they are 1-base attacking or expanding in their main, so now I just scan instead.
I'm not sure if I should still SCV scout. On one hand, it helps me play greedier (low ground CC if I see marine first, high ground if reaper first) and by counting gas, I can determine if they are playing a mirror build or not.
If it's a mirror build (at least, if it's 15 gas) I have to determine what he does after his CC. I played a barcode who was playing random, and all he did was mass hellion marine and even got an extra rax (or was it a fac? can't remember, this game was a few days ago) and just facerolled me.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://s17.postimg.org/ds65j30rj/forgg2.gif)
![[image loading]](http://s1.postimg.org/6piybjtsf/forgg.gif)
