On July 13 2013 08:21 mechengineer123 wrote: I wish people would stop quoting that 45-3 ratio, literally over half of those maps were against much weaker players whom he would beat with any build and even any race.
Nevertheless, awesome strategy analysis, thanks man :D
To be honest : ForGG is 54–8 (87%) in games and 30–3 (91%) in matches. (this was after wcs global finals where he lost to mvp, i wrote tis before the final weekend of wcs eu). I dont agree with ur analysis as all these terran opponents are wcs caliber.
Out of that list, at the very least morrow, cloud, dragon, fuzer, goody, illusion are all nowhere near his level. The full stats also include wins against Lau, hG, TiB, MarinLord, Satiini (13-0 against those last guys in total). He would most likely 13-0 them if he played Random, too.
Indeed, but u can judge every good player this way. Stephano and innovation crushes lesser players too, its part of being top pro caliber to fight against lesser players....
To further Govie's point, the real message here is that ForGG is a TvT beast with this strat and enjoys amazing success with it. Apollo and Kaeleris say so much in the WCS vods. Regardless of how people quibble the exact numbers, it doesnt really change things.
What are people doing for army control and hotkeys? It seems to me, that there's a lot to control here. I'd argue that it could be harder than TvP.
For example, last night I was watching ForGG's stream, and there was so much going on. He's doing this dance with vikings, raven maintaining air control, hellions mopping up marine anti-air, banshees munching scvs in turret lines, and then two or three tanks getting positioned to support. It was great to watch, but intimidating at the same time.
On July 16 2013 01:02 Smackzilla wrote: What are people doing for army control and hotkeys? It seems to me, that there's a lot to control here. I'd argue that it could be harder than TvP.
For example, last night I was watching ForGG's stream, and there was so much going on. He's doing this dance with vikings, raven maintaining air control, hellions mopping up marine anti-air, banshees munching scvs in turret lines, and then two or three tanks getting positioned to support. It was great to watch, but intimidating at the same time.
Agreed! It is not the build that wins him games its his control and descecionmaking. But what i do is as follows.
Early game (until tankproduction) 1. Hellions 2. Marine medivac 3. Air (or a single banshee early) 4. extra group which i never really use.
Mid/endgame (when u are building tanks) 1. Ground army 2. Tanks 3. Air 4. extra group which i never really use.
But i am not a particular good terran in execution. I bet a masters could advice u and me better. Most of the time i am allready happy that ive made it to mid/end stage^^ So if a master could enlighten us with unitcontrol forgg style i will edit OP, guide is gettin better everyday
On July 16 2013 01:02 Smackzilla wrote: What are people doing for army control and hotkeys? It seems to me, that there's a lot to control here. I'd argue that it could be harder than TvP.
For example, last night I was watching ForGG's stream, and there was so much going on. He's doing this dance with vikings, raven maintaining air control, hellions mopping up marine anti-air, banshees munching scvs in turret lines, and then two or three tanks getting positioned to support. It was great to watch, but intimidating at the same time.
Agreed! It is not the build that wins him games its his control and descecionmaking. But what i do is as follows.
Early game (until tankproduction) 1. Hellions 2. Marine medivac 3. Air (or a single banshee early) 4. extra group which i never really use.
Mid/endgame (when u are building tanks) 1. Ground army 2. Tanks 3. Air 4. extra group which i never really use.
But i am not a particular good terran in execution. I bet a masters could advice u and me better. Most of the time i am allready happy that ive made it to mid/end stage^^ So if a master could enlighten us with unitcontrol forgg style i will edit OP, guide is gettin better everyday
A few thoughts: 1) I'm concerned with the single air group and tabbing for abilities, e.g. do I want to cloak my banshees or PDD with my raven. Also, what about attacking with air and accidentally suiciding your raven into your enemies? 2) I also wonder if a tank-only group is necessary. For example, if tanks are unseiged, you probably want them moving with your hellions. If you need to siege, no problem, I believe tanks have priority. Once sieged, should can still dart your hellions around with the ground control group; sieged tanks aren't going anywhere.
This may be a question about mech in general since I've only recently started since playing bio/biomech since 2010. But when do you make the switch to air, if ever? It seems extra ambiguous in a mech vs mech game, since it seems you get fewer vikings in this build compared to other mech builds.
On July 16 2013 18:49 halpimcat wrote: This may be a question about mech in general since I've only recently started since playing bio/biomech since 2010. But when do you make the switch to air, if ever? It seems extra ambiguous in a mech vs mech game, since it seems you get fewer vikings in this build compared to other mech builds.
If u play it out right u will allways have more or equal vikings then ur opponent, for sure. After the raven, u can get a reactor on the starport if u see your opponent trying the regain aircontrol. But most terrans go for some medivacs early, that will put them behind in the vikingcount for a long time.
U dont need to switch to air in tvt when playing mech (except vikingsproduction) and facing BC's if u dont want too. Watch fantasy vs flash air vs mech. Fantasy builds alot of mines and they shred BC's like there shitty units
Personally, in my platinum league, when the opponent switch to air it's not a problem, even if I didn't see it coming, I stop making hellions/hellbats and tanks, and I make thors and mass mines instead (with fast burrow). Mines>BC
On July 16 2013 17:28 govie wrote: BTW tonight chances for forgg vs bunny (maybe). Or atleast i hope so. We can see what the patch influenced in forgg's build/tactics.
On July 16 2013 17:28 govie wrote: BTW tonight chances for forgg vs bunny (maybe). Or atleast i hope so. We can see what the patch influenced in forgg's build/tactics.
I have added the vods to the OP. Thx m8 That 2nd game was bull from bunny. But the first one was ok although bansheemicro from bunny was a bit poor.
Seems like forgg does go banshees+cloak, if he spots one and i guess to pick of tanks and stuff if they follow the bansheeharras up (because he doesnt scout so he doesnt know). To bad we didnt saw a strong banshee expand against forgg, as we all know we see that alot on ladder. But still.. when seeing banshee get one yourself seems logical when u dont scout
Hopefully we can see his tvt some more here and there.
So I finally got around to checking out ForGG vs Bunny @ WCS2. In the first game, the tank pushes looked so scary. It seems like you'd need great control to hold it off. Since I don't have great control, has anyone considered incorporating a little earlier gas into the build to get a tank of your own out?
Also, I noticed that he also skipped the medivac and went straight to viking and then raven. I also believe I've seen that in his stream. Does the represent a fundamental change in his build as a response to the banshee buff?
On July 29 2013 04:06 Smackzilla wrote: So I finally got around to checking out ForGG vs Bunny @ WCS2. In the first game, the tank pushes looked so scary. It seems like you'd need great control to hold it off. Since I don't have great control, has anyone considered incorporating a little earlier gas into the build to get a tank of your own out?
Also, I noticed that he also skipped the medivac and went straight to viking and then raven. I also believe I've seen that in his stream. Does the represent a fundamental change in his build as a response to the banshee buff?
In my experiences with facing cloaked banshee using this build(I use it almost every game) banshees are easy to hold off. Scan the main once your 2nd OC finishes, and if you scout or feel that he's going cloaked banshee, you start your eng bay, get your viking, 2 widow mines and then a raven. The build actually times out perfectly where you can start your 2 widow mines and then you still have enough gas to get your raven. So usually the banshee is completely shut down. As for the tank push, that's the hard part, and what I'd recommend is just to keep producing helions. Try and get a good engagement where you get a good shot off on the marines, pulling SCVS along with landing vikings and auto turrets since he's one basing should do the trick. You won't have enough time to get a tank to defend, and even if you switch the factory on to the tech lab, you just won't have enough units to defend. Edit:If I scout that he's going bio, I get the medivac, if I scout that he's going for some time of 1 base build, I'll skip the medivac in favor of the viking and raven for the defense.
On July 29 2013 04:06 Smackzilla wrote: So I finally got around to checking out ForGG vs Bunny @ WCS2. In the first game, the tank pushes looked so scary. It seems like you'd need great control to hold it off. Since I don't have great control, has anyone considered incorporating a little earlier gas into the build to get a tank of your own out?
Also, I noticed that he also skipped the medivac and went straight to viking and then raven. I also believe I've seen that in his stream. Does the represent a fundamental change in his build as a response to the banshee buff?
In my experiences with facing cloaked banshee using this build(I use it almost every game) banshees are easy to hold off. Scan the main once your 2nd OC finishes, and if you scout or feel that he's going cloaked banshee, you start your eng bay, get your viking, 2 widow mines and then a raven. The build actually times out perfectly where you can start your 2 widow mines and then you still have enough gas to get your raven. So usually the banshee is completely shut down. As for the tank push, that's the hard part, and what I'd recommend is just to keep producing helions. Try and get a good engagement where you get a good shot off on the marines, pulling SCVS along with landing vikings and auto turrets since he's one basing should do the trick. You won't have enough time to get a tank to defend, and even if you switch the factory on to the tech lab, you just won't have enough units to defend. Edit:If I scout that he's going bio, I get the medivac, if I scout that he's going for some time of 1 base build, I'll skip the medivac in favor of the viking and raven for the defense.
When they push early with tanks. Build a banshee and kill the marines with the hellions. Thin the marinecount so your bansjee can deal with the tanks.
Also the raven is pretty powerfull against early pushes. If u can drop 2 turrets (10 dps a piece is 20 dps extra in total with a bigger healthbar then marines) against an early push u got alot of extra dps.. next to the AOE of the hellions it will mean u can hold off much more and loose less. Ravens are worth it in tvt, certainly with the newpatch and the importance of airsuperiority..Demuslim on his stream said he lost against avilo just because he forgot to use the 2 turrets at the right time. Certainly earlygame two turrets can save your life.
@LilSighKoh Those adjustments seem to make a lot of sense. I'll try them out.
@Govie So what adjustments are you making nowadays given the banshee buff? Are you skipping the medivac (e.g. viking > raven > viking), and if so, what sort of early game aggression are you doing?
On July 30 2013 01:29 Smackzilla wrote: @LilSighKoh Those adjustments seem to make a lot of sense. I'll try them out.
@Govie So what adjustments are you making nowadays given the banshee buff? Are you skipping the medivac (e.g. viking > raven > viking), and if so, what sort of early game aggression are you doing?
Im not high level enough yet to fully get most out of the unitcomp.. so no, i dont do anything different since the patch. Im no pro, just an amateur
1. If i see a 2nd CC i will certainly build a medivac and try to harras with marines and hellions. This because the banshee will allways hit later then marine/hellion drop/elevator when both players go for 2nd CC.
2. Banshee hits around the same time and cloakresearch takes just as long as it used to, prepatch. 1 medivac 1 viking and 1 raven would surfice as i see it. After the raven u could go for a banshee if u spotted a banshee, because a banshee will help against any followup aggression off 1 basebanshee like tankpushes etc. Most players try to overextend the harras when they have invested so much in it (late 2nd cc). So a banshee of your own helps negaiting that 2nd strong harras i.e. tankmarinepush.
EPT
So if a master could enlighten us with unitcontrol forgg style i will edit OP, guide is gettin better everyday
