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[G] ZvT Muta vs. Thor

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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FunkyLich
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States107 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-21 17:19:45
August 20 2010 00:42 GMT
#1
Greetings! I am a long time lurker, first time poster, and I have a contribution to you zerg players that will aid you in your ZvT, specifically in making effective use of mutas against thors. I am a terran player who uses a tank/thor mech push in every game vs Zerg, and I beat almost all the platinums I have faced even though proper muta control could have saved them half the games. It’s somewhat disappointing. Anyways, the point of this guide is to show you how to exploit the fact that unlike siege tanks, the thor’s splash radius is EXTREMELY small, and only really takes effect when mutas start to overlap and stack.

The SC2 Magic Box


Before I go further I need to introduce you to the “magic box.” Magic boxes were also in broodwar, and if you want more detailed analysis, see here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=33677

In BW you could use magic boxes for spell spread, among other things. In sc2 we have smart casting so that isn’t important, the application this time will be to maintain a unit spread. The magic box is basically an invisible box that fits around your selected units. If you right click inside the box, your units will try to bunch up at that location. And if you right click outside the box, they will maintain formation and hence retain unit spread.

[image loading]
(it’s actually more of a square but from that angle I had to make it a rectangle.)

What's better is that the unit spread is automatic. You know when you bunch up a group of mutas and they start to diverge on their own? Once they reach THAT spread, THAT is your anti-splash damage formation. The thor’s splash damage is literally that small. See that picture up there? That is all the spread you need to completely eliminate splash damage. And you don’t need insane micro skills to maintain it. Just bunch them up once, wait until they diverge, and move them out, being sure to always click outside the box.

There is more to magic boxes though. In particular they have a maximum size depending on whether air or ground units are selected. If the selected units exceed the maximum size of the box, they will always lose formation no matter where you click. Fortunately the air box is MUCH bigger than the ground box. Mess around with about 4 zerglings and see how much you can spread them and move them while keeping formation. They don’t spread a whole lot. Air units are very different. I have found that I can keep a formation of 36 mutas without them getting outside the box. If you go above that number you’re risking one of them getting outside the box, and the result will be all of them bunching up during a move. It’s safest to keep your numbers lower than 36. So just keep an eye on that.


Application

WHAT NOT TO DO

[image loading]

DO NOT. I REPEAT DO NOT, attack thors by simply right clicking them from a distance, or this is what you will see. I shake my head in shame whenever I see this. (Although as a terran player it does make me a happy camper).

WHAT TO DO

[image loading]

The idea is to move, park, and fire. Let’s say I want to pick off 2 thors with 10 mutas. First I get them in formation. To do this bunch them up and let them diverge into a nice little circular cloud (you should only have to do this once before moving out). Second, once you see the thor, FORCE MOVE to a point past the target thor. Once your mutas have clouded over the thor, attack the target thor, and ideally you will see your mutas get this nice momentum where they do an attack before they come to a complete stop, it’s very important that your mutas are all in range before you attack. Otherwise they could bunch up slightly. As you focus one thor down, watch to see if another thor is accumulating glaive damage. Kill that one next. If he is very close to the other thor you may not even need to force move your mutas. Additionally, you may find it difficult to click on the thor when your mutas are surrounding it. This is actually a very important issue, because if you click on one of your mutas or the ground right next to him on accident, the results will be disastrous. The solution I have found is to just hit “end” on the keyboard or use your mouse scroll to get a better angle. I know it’s awkward and not very pro but it’s much safer. You will find that it gets harder to do this with no bunching as your numbers get bigger. A bit of practice on a unit tester couldn’t hurt you there.

Data

These are by no means proven, but I have found that at about 18 mutas, you’ve reached a critical mass where mutas are even with thors at a 3:1 ratio. So 18 mutas is about even with 6 thors. Do the math: 300/300/6 is even with 300/200/6, even when the latter is supposed to be a counter and the sole AA in a mech army I might add. As you get lower in mutas, the ratio gets bigger. As you get higher, the ratio gets a little smaller. Using this tactic, 4 mutas is basically even with one thor. This does not take into account upgrades but I will discuss them further down. Again I want to stress these are by no means proven. Results have varied tremendously before. Perhaps the mutas bunched sometimes and I missed it. Perhaps the thors were doing an absurd amount of overkill, causing their DPS to plummet. No less, the technique makes a gigantic difference in the LIFESPAN of your mutas while they’re around thors. This enables them to harass more effectively when the terran is using thors as his primary air defence, and much more.

Now some important figures: with no upgrades on either end, thors kill mutas in 3 hits. Thors with level 1 weapons and mutas with zero armor still kill mutas in three hits. With level 2 weapons, thors kill mutas in two hits unless the mutas have level 1 armor, then it takes 3 again (In this case mutas will have ONE HP left after the second hit due to that instant point of health regen).

Meager Analysis

What can the terran do? Certainly armor for thors will help as the glaives hit multiple times. But a better tactic is just spacing out the thors and taking advantage of their range. This will increase the time it takes for the mutas to get from one to the other, and eliminate glaive damage to an extent. Also, make good use of your SCVs.

What can the zerg do extra? Possibly get corrupters and use corruption to help the thors go down faster. Don’t necessarily target the thors. If you can pick off his tanks, you can pave the way for your ground army to mop the floor with everything else, which leads to the next point. Obviously don’t make ALL mutas unless you can see he’s really short on thors or AA in general.



Questions? Comments? Constructive criticism is welcome, as are data contributions.



EDIT: For the record, this technique has existed, and has been put to use before I ever discovered it for myself. This is evidenced by the fact that in higher diamond level play, terran players have already adapted, and the counter is indeed having marines support your thors. Since the mutas want to cloud directly over the thors, and the marines want to stim directly under the mutas, the solution is to simply surround the thors with marines. That, and the mech army is so vespane heavy, the marines are a great way to sink your minerals. However, with this, more people will also see that the mech army is in fact heavily reliant on a very fragile unit. And it is not so indestructible as many of us had thought.

Another note, I of course do not believe this FIXES ZvT. But if this technique makes you feel more positively about it, all for the better.
Setanta
Profile Joined June 2010
99 Posts
August 20 2010 00:54 GMT
#2
Just tried it.. 12 mutas beat 4 thors with 3 mutas surviving. Pretty surprising!
'Zerg tech very slowly. Zerg has almost no timing pushes. Zerg never use all tier 1 units before reaching tier 2. While it does not look like it, there is a single fact which is responsible for all of this: A Hatchery is too expensive'
_ContempT
Profile Joined August 2010
United States35 Posts
August 20 2010 01:04 GMT
#3
Thanks for taking the time to do the research! Gonna go test some of this out and hopefully rape some Thors!
Biggy is mild and good taste! o_O
Malminos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States321 Posts
August 20 2010 01:08 GMT
#4
mua hahaha, i will have to try this. thanks for all the hard work putting this post together!
"To dream of because become happiness "
RoarMan
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada745 Posts
August 20 2010 01:20 GMT
#5
Great write up! Seeing a lot of Zerg players getting those mutas and fearlessly diving the Thors, this'll probably help me do the same!

Thanks for a very informative and well written post :D
All the pros got dat Ichie.
AssuredVacancy
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1167 Posts
August 20 2010 01:26 GMT
#6
One note though, very rarely do you have vision of all of his thors so that you can casually stroll over them and pick them off. Usually what happens is you're attacking some part of his base(scvs, depots), and a thor walks over and attacks your mutas. When this happens your mutas are in a clumped position already from attacking whatever you were attacking, and it becomes very difficult to engage the thors as even a tiny bit of overlap in the mutas kills them.
We spend our youth attaining wealth, and our wealth attaining youth.
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
August 20 2010 01:30 GMT
#7
This is one of the reasons why Blizzard is taking a bit of time to actually patch things despite the cries of the masses.

Mutas are so disgustingly strong if used well, not only do they make the terran waste minerals on turrets everywhere, take the map and give the zerg opportunity to take a few expos but also in a direct confrontation they can hold their own pretty well as long as you know what you are doing. Mind though that a terran will most likely have marines with his thors and/or turrets if he's slow pushing, but that's still all resources that aren't used against ground units, so massing ground straight after combat should catch the terran offguard.

Anyway good post.
roronoe
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada1527 Posts
August 20 2010 01:37 GMT
#8
I like the big red letters, they actually help a lot, lol
The Purgatory of Endless Depths
fishball232
Profile Joined May 2010
United States90 Posts
August 20 2010 01:43 GMT
#9
omg i won with mutas first time ever. (actually not on some horrible peopel) but i actually killed 2 thors and a couple marines with 8 mutas impressive
"You really have to detach yourself and accept that you suck at StarCraft. Like I suck at StarCraft and it's all I've done for 15 years"-Artosis 2013
Deathfate
Profile Joined November 2008
Spain555 Posts
August 20 2010 01:52 GMT
#10
This seems amazing. I really need to try this to stop that marauder hellion thor push, this could be the perfect counter. Thank you very much for your effort.
Feel the power of the zerg swarm.
Toobz
Profile Joined May 2010
United States88 Posts
August 20 2010 01:54 GMT
#11
Good stuff! Mutas are so awesome. I almost always get them in every matchup. I would just be careful of getting too muta happy, because they are still pretty situational units and will get whipped if you're not careful. Awesome analysis on Muta vs Thor though. It's all about that little bit of extra direct move passed the Thors so you are dead overhead.
Its pretty alright
FunkyLich
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States107 Posts
August 20 2010 01:57 GMT
#12
On August 20 2010 10:37 roronoe wrote:
I like the big red letters, they actually help a lot, lol


They are for positive reinforcement.

On August 20 2010 10:30 Zarahtra wrote:
This is one of the reasons why Blizzard is taking a bit of time to actually patch things despite the cries of the masses.

Mutas are so disgustingly strong if used well, not only do they make the terran waste minerals on turrets everywhere, take the map and give the zerg opportunity to take a few expos but also in a direct confrontation they can hold their own pretty well as long as you know what you are doing. Mind though that a terran will most likely have marines with his thors and/or turrets if he's slow pushing, but that's still all resources that aren't used against ground units, so massing ground straight after combat should catch the terran offguard.

Anyway good post.


One disadvantage, is that since you park right over them, you've already done half the work for the supporting marines (if they exist) because marines just want to get under them and stim. It's not exactly fool proof, especially vs. rines, I will admit that.

And also, it's really awesome that you guys are already getting results! Good stuff.
Piousflea
Profile Joined February 2010
United States259 Posts
August 20 2010 02:00 GMT
#13
Rines + thor are a hard counter to mutas, but if the terran goes straight marine+thor you can easily overwhelm him with ling/bane.
Seek, behold, and reveal the truth
dudeman001
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2412 Posts
August 20 2010 02:23 GMT
#14
As a Terran player I cringe at this write up, but well done! Really good information for Zerg players to deal with mech.

And welcome to TL :D
Sup.
Iron_
Profile Joined April 2010
United States389 Posts
August 20 2010 02:28 GMT
#15
Funny enough, I got beat by a zerg that did this. We chatted for a while, played a couple more games, then they showed me this method in a unit tester map. It also works with banchees. I also cringe as a terran player since taking muta out of the game was the only reason to build thors. I will be modifying my strategy as this gets more common.
TheAngelofDeath
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2033 Posts
August 20 2010 02:33 GMT
#16
Thanks much! :D Will have to use this.
"Infestors are the suck" - LzGamer
SeeDLiNg
Profile Joined January 2010
United States690 Posts
August 20 2010 02:34 GMT
#17
i had no idea their splash was so tiny! this is so sick!
sikyon
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada1045 Posts
August 20 2010 02:34 GMT
#18
You really need to mix marines in to counter mutas. Stim is essential. It then becomes a race to see how many marines you can save against mass bling.

I think seeker missile might be a decent buy here too. I believe it one shots mutas and has a much larger splash radius than the thor. It could probably force a zerg player in-out-in-out of a fight. Probably deserves testing.
eH
Profile Joined May 2010
88 Posts
August 20 2010 02:35 GMT
#19
Problem is that you almost never find thors alone like this, and if you're focusing on keeping your mutas tight together in order to pick off tanks and other stuff and 2 or 3 thors walk up you just splat

Good info though.
MattDamon
Profile Joined May 2010
United States59 Posts
August 20 2010 02:42 GMT
#20
I have no idea why more zergs don't do this, I played a zerg that had about 12 mutas that destroyed 3 thors doing this and I was like... wtf.


http://beta-us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/62116/1/
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