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On August 22 2010 04:28 RampancyTW wrote:
All the people claiming "LOL NO BIG DEAL KNOWN THIS FOREVER" are pretty hilarious.
Mutas hurttttttt mech with this technique, and most meching terrans aren't using a marine-heavy enough comp to deal with this effectively (and the ones that are are bling vulnerable). If this was really as "common knowledge" as all of you claim, and you had been using this to such great effect vs. Terrans, it would have been brought up in balance discussions long ago as a viable response.
Even if you all knew about the technique or had the basic idea of it, there's no way in hell you had regularly used it in an effective fashion before now.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125003#12 look at the dates
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I thought everyone knew this for several weeks now.
Its not really the problem with the MU.
Exactly how many of the points/issues in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144149
is solved by this?
Yes is great news if you didn't know mutas could take on thors but its not something that will change the MU.
This is not a response to OP (good post) but to the ppl claiming that ZvT will be a breeze now. Its still a tricky MU and while it might not be imba it still has its issues.
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I've tried explaining this to many zerg players, you did it much more thoroughly.
I hope this getting further and further out there, will stop a lot of the crying about T.
People need to realize that in different times in scbw different races controlled the top of the ladders.
Much of this has to do with "trends", which will change the game significantly without changing any actual data in the game.
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On August 22 2010 09:52 Jermstuddog wrote:
On the other side, glaive does terribly vs armor upgrades.
0 vs 0, mutalisks do 8+2+0 to thors. 50 shots to kill 1 thor +bounce damage
0 vs 1, 7+1+0. 57 hits to kill 1 thor and bounces are 1/2 as effective.
So by default, to counter mutalisks, the first thing you should look at is their armor upgrades, if they have 0: +2 weapons, anything else: +1 is fine. After that, pumping armor ups will at a minimum, reduce glaive bounce damage by 50%
And to counter the thors, its the opposite direction get +2 armor, its always useful. After that, go to weapon ups.
I don't believe the third bounce is 0 in either case. In BW all attacks did a minimum of 0.5 damage IIRC, and I think there's a nonzero minimum in SC2 but I haven't tested what it is (but I think you can, for example, damage a 5-armor Ultra or Planetary Fortress with unupgraded Zerglings).
This doesn't affect at all that armor is a much better upgrade vs mutas of course.
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sweet post!! Finally Zerg has a small chance at TvZ (not complaining about imba's or anything, just saying zerg have a really tough time).
Just tried it out against my terran partner and i am currently 3-1 in the favor of me :D
this new muta usage causes my partner to switch to a bioball in order to combat my mutas, thus allowing ling/bane play to emerge to squash his ground forces. Stimming/medivacs still cause a lot of trouble for bane/lings but this is definitely an improvement in the TvZ matchup!!!
Thank you so much
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Not able to try this out at home (traveling at the moment), but I was wondering since Vikings stack up at times, would this strat work on keeping Vikings from taking a lot of AoE damage in TvTs?
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On August 23 2010 16:34 ziggymondais wrote:
Not able to try this out at home (traveling at the moment), but I was wondering since Vikings stack up at times, would this strat work on keeping Vikings from taking a lot of AoE damage in TvTs?
I would imagine in air vs air battles the vikings would bunch up again anyways when they start shooting.
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On August 23 2010 16:34 ziggymondais wrote:
Not able to try this out at home (traveling at the moment), but I was wondering since Vikings stack up at times, would this strat work on keeping Vikings from taking a lot of AoE damage in TvTs?
Yes, it would. Same premise but different unit.
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On August 23 2010 23:04 Scorcher2k wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 16:34 ziggymondais wrote:
Not able to try this out at home (traveling at the moment), but I was wondering since Vikings stack up at times, would this strat work on keeping Vikings from taking a lot of AoE damage in TvTs? Yes, it would. Same premise but different unit.
No, it would not. Remember, the mutalisk attack is a bounce attack, not an AoE attack. The automatic distance is not enough to avoid bounces. So mutalisk attacks will still do maximum damage. In fact, if you autospread your vikings, only the front ones will take damage. When you bunch your vikings the damage will be spread better over all your vikings, so it will take a little longer before vikings start dropping due to bounce damage.
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On August 23 2010 23:07 marcusklaas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 23:04 Scorcher2k wrote:On August 23 2010 16:34 ziggymondais wrote:
Not able to try this out at home (traveling at the moment), but I was wondering since Vikings stack up at times, would this strat work on keeping Vikings from taking a lot of AoE damage in TvTs? Yes, it would. Same premise but different unit. No, it would not. Remember, the mutalisk attack is a bounce attack, not an AoE attack. The automatic distance is not enough to avoid bounces. So mutalisk attacks will still do maximum damage. In fact, if you autospread your vikings, only the front ones will take damage. When you bunch your vikings the damage will be spread better over all your vikings, so it will take a little longer before vikings start dropping due to bounce damage.
He said in TvT
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What can the terran do? Certainly armor for thors will help as the glaives hit multiple times. But a better tactic is just spacing out the thors and taking advantage of their range. This will increase the time it takes for the mutas to get from one to the other, and eliminate glaive damage to an extent. Also, make good use of your SCVs.
I would actually get attack upgrades and just a couple of marines, when the terran is 2 ahead with the vehicle upgrades mutas get 2 shotted by thors, else they get to really low hp which some marines can finish of
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let´s thank idra for using this tactic @ IEM
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thanks for researching this, was a good read and some nice info
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Holy... thank you so much for this post. Everytime I complained about thors wiping out my muta, people just say 'lolnoobspreadoutmuta' but they never could tell you HOW to to it. This is greatness and thx.
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Lol @ "idra did it"
34 mutas vs 5 thors.
3400/3400 vs 1500/1000
I believe 8 mutas died (?). I'd say thors did better than they should when outmassed in such manner. Notice how there were absolutely no other antiair units soaking hits from mutas.
I feel IEM as overall only made balance worse. 5rax start is so much easier to pull off decently than to counter it. I couldn't see close to any mistakes on idra's play on finals, yet he was beat pretty convincingly. Now mutas may work against thors slightly better, but you usually can't get TO mutas 
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i really hope blizzard doesn't patch the magic box or increase thor splash or anything. this has really helped zvt, and is encouraging strategies that require more skill than an unstoppable 1a thor/racecar push (such as morrow's micro intensive reaper build). i don't think that zvt is fixed yet, but by god that magic box has helped so much.
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On August 24 2010 05:10 universalwill wrote:
i really hope blizzard doesn't patch the magic box or increase thor splash or anything. this has really helped zvt, and is encouraging strategies that require more skill than an unstoppable 1a thor/racecar push (such as morrow's micro intensive reaper build). i don't think that zvt is fixed yet, but by god that magic box has helped so much.
I wouldn't be suprised if blizzard knew exactly how the spacing of mutas when they are not stacked is what they based thor splash on. It just took people a while to figure it out.
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Now do a test and show me how many speedlings it takes to rip down 4 thors. I'm guessing under 500 minerals worth?
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On August 24 2010 06:45 captive411 wrote:
Now do a test and show me how many speedlings it takes to rip down 4 thors. I'm guessing under 500 minerals worth?
Now do a test and see how many hellions it takes to take down 500 minerals worth of zerglings..... or 1000... or 5000?
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On August 24 2010 06:45 captive411 wrote:
Now do a test and show me how many speedlings it takes to rip down 4 thors. I'm guessing under 500 minerals worth?
You're pretty bad at guessing, then. 
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EPT
