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On August 22 2010 04:52 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 04:46 Markwerf wrote:
This technique is great but it won't stop thors from countering muta's quite hard.
In the idra vs tarson game it was 31 !! muta vs 5 thors in the critical fight. Thats over twice the amount of minerals and three times the gas cost so it wasn't too weird the thor's lost.
MORE importantly though, tarson didn't have the proper upgrades against muta's.
Thors do 4 * 12 = 48 damage per volley against mutalisks. With 1 attack upgrade thats 56 and with 2 thats 64. 2 attack upgrades is therefore the critical amount against mutalisks who have 120 hitpoints 0 armor.
Tarson had 1-1 upgrades which is much less effective then 2-0. With proper upgrades like 2-1 or so thors still counter mutalisks very hard and with some proper scv backup 5 thors can still take out a huge load of mutalisks (like 20). (unless the muta's have 2 armor upgrades in which case you need 3 attack upgrades for thor).
The only thing this technique changed is that muta's dont get useless the moment 3 thor arrive to the scene but muta massing can still be countered with just thors alone. And this isn't the 'end' of terran mech in a long shot... Read the OP before you post stuff like this. Mutas kill Thors at a 3:1 ratio or better at numbers ~12 and greater. Upgrades do matter obviously but if you're going Mass Mutas there is no reason why you cannot upgrade Air Carapace. A Zerg can and should be able to out-produce a Terran building pure Thors with Mutas, simply because Zerg is usually up one base and Thors require multiple factories/tech labs. But of course, almost nobody builds pure Thors because they do not work once the Zerg spends even a fraction of his minerals on Zerglings. The key to the Muta build is that it stops pure mech, which invests a huge amount of resources in Hellions and Tanks. If it were just Thors or Thors + Hellions Zerg would just go mass Roach.
The OP talks about upgrades but hardly goes into details about it. It's not like mutalisk armor upgrades even out with thor attack upgrades.... Thor attack upgrades give a thor +2 vs light while a armor upgrade only does -1 so if terran upgrades attack and zerg armor the terran will win out. Stating that thors beat muta's in a 3:1 ratio at number great then 12 is just complete nonsense. A terran on 2 bases can easily counter muta's from a zerg on 3 bases with thor's only.
I'm not saying mass muta is a bad strategy and this technique isn't great but people on these boards just overreact way too often. One 'new' technique and people are exclaiming the end of mech and when you try to state that isn't true someone who doesn't know his facts claims you didn't read properly...
Also just like muta micro can make thor splash irrelevant (though the muta's do have to receive 1 volley before getting into position) thor micro can void muta splash as well. Proper usage on both sides and thors still beat muta's easily.
Terran just has to scout better once zerg master this technique and not blindly go some thors and some tanks but rather adjust to muta and roach with thor and tanks respectively. But I don't see the end of terran mech vs zerg in a long shot, upgrades in this game still favor going one 'style' (mech or bio) over a combination and mech is still better then bio against zerg in most cases.
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So now what is a terran supposed to do? Feels like the coin has flipped.
Thors don't cut it versus mutas when you do this. You are forced into stimmed marines. And what does marines die hard to? banelings! banelings punish T bio SO, SO hard, which is why everyone goes mech. Bio play once many blings with speed comes into play is just crazy.
Saw how idra had free reign with mutas. How are you going to defend 2 bases, let alone 3? When people stacked mutas, you could just have a thor guard and repair him, but now? Three marine troops solo against an army of mutas?
Just a little suggestion... what about changing the baneling somehow? currently banelings dominates zvz too and makes it quite tedious... noone really likes ZvZ as it is now. The baneling is also forcing T into mech play.
And mech play in itself is really strong, just not against mutas. So what about a nerf to mech And a nerf to bling?
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On August 22 2010 04:48 Toksec wrote:
idra should thank OP for this insight
oh god, if this thread actually informed idra, my girth would be maxed 200/200, no question. I have my doubts there though.
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On August 22 2010 04:08 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 03:57 Ciddass wrote:
magic box ? it`s just that they`re vertically above the thors right, and need basically 0 range to attack since sc2 is 3d so they don`t clutch. all that hhe terran needs to do is move the focused thor a little bit and that`s it. nice nonetheless Spreading thors out is the best way to counter this, having a thor move mid battle lowers its DPS by loads because of its low mobility, and is essentially -1 thor while the rest of your army gets raped.
spreading your thors has no impact on the damage that mutas get. when they are spread thors won`t do splash damge to them no matter from what angle the thors attack. this will only reduce the cleave dmg mutas do and force the Z to micro properly when the 1st thor is down => move above the next thor and regain spread.
microing away the focused unit is the best way.
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On August 22 2010 06:00 freezeframe wrote:oh god, if this thread actually informed idra, my girth would be maxed 200/200, no question. I have my doubts there though.
-utterly without reference-
i heard artosis actually did tell idra about this thread, so grats. 
apologies if it's later found to bullshit, but him using the technique literally the day after the thread was posted would be coincidental.
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how stupid some people on here are reacting is just rediculous. Idra beats tarson with muta's in 1 game where tarson just underestimated the muta's and didn't have the proper upgrades & spacing and suddenly mech is useless? Without thor splash 1 thor still beats 3 to 4 mutalisks and with scv repair this gets a lot better.
The more upgrades on both sides the more the thor vs muta balance shifts towards the terran, offcourse muta's give map control so it's hard to balance that vs thor immobility as it depends a lot on the map etc. but mech can still do fine.
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On August 22 2010 05:27 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 04:52 Azarkon wrote:On August 22 2010 04:46 Markwerf wrote:
This technique is great but it won't stop thors from countering muta's quite hard.
In the idra vs tarson game it was 31 !! muta vs 5 thors in the critical fight. Thats over twice the amount of minerals and three times the gas cost so it wasn't too weird the thor's lost.
MORE importantly though, tarson didn't have the proper upgrades against muta's.
Thors do 4 * 12 = 48 damage per volley against mutalisks. With 1 attack upgrade thats 56 and with 2 thats 64. 2 attack upgrades is therefore the critical amount against mutalisks who have 120 hitpoints 0 armor.
Tarson had 1-1 upgrades which is much less effective then 2-0. With proper upgrades like 2-1 or so thors still counter mutalisks very hard and with some proper scv backup 5 thors can still take out a huge load of mutalisks (like 20). (unless the muta's have 2 armor upgrades in which case you need 3 attack upgrades for thor).
The only thing this technique changed is that muta's dont get useless the moment 3 thor arrive to the scene but muta massing can still be countered with just thors alone. And this isn't the 'end' of terran mech in a long shot... Read the OP before you post stuff like this. Mutas kill Thors at a 3:1 ratio or better at numbers ~12 and greater. Upgrades do matter obviously but if you're going Mass Mutas there is no reason why you cannot upgrade Air Carapace. A Zerg can and should be able to out-produce a Terran building pure Thors with Mutas, simply because Zerg is usually up one base and Thors require multiple factories/tech labs. But of course, almost nobody builds pure Thors because they do not work once the Zerg spends even a fraction of his minerals on Zerglings. The key to the Muta build is that it stops pure mech, which invests a huge amount of resources in Hellions and Tanks. If it were just Thors or Thors + Hellions Zerg would just go mass Roach. Thor attack upgrades give a thor +2 vs light
No, they don't.
Not since Patch 15 anyway: http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/news/12115-starcraft-2-beta-patch-15
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I have a question, As a mid-level player I feel like this "spread affect" also applies to other ranged units, albeit differently though.
Here's what my idea is:
Say, for instance, you have a sizeable (ground )army and need to break down some rocks. Lets say you have 20 roaches. If you select all the roaches and simply press attack, then the roaches will automatically spread into a firing line. However, from what I've seen, this line is formation puts the ranged attackers at their maximum range, normally a good thing, right?
Well a problem with this is the units stuck behind the line cannot attack and cannot add to the overall DPS.
How I remedy this-
I move my ranged attackers closer to the rocks. This allows ALL of the roaches to attack at once, since it puts the previously out of range roaches (or any unit) into range.
Is this practical in army fights?
I find that if I mass corrupter and pit them against an enemy's air army this "thor muta splash" also takes affect. Units not on the front line will take any splash damage (be it from any source,) however they cannot attack back until the units on the front die.
Any thoughts?
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Its not a magic box you silly forum goers, it's called moving and holding above to keep line of movement straight. See martijn's video on pathing during the KotB tourny. I believe he even uses muta/Thor; the opening demonstration with two spread apart marines maintaining their distance from each other while being told to mmove compared to coming together when being told to a-move is what is being demonstrated...
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On August 22 2010 06:32 Daedie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 05:27 Markwerf wrote:On August 22 2010 04:52 Azarkon wrote:On August 22 2010 04:46 Markwerf wrote:
This technique is great but it won't stop thors from countering muta's quite hard.
In the idra vs tarson game it was 31 !! muta vs 5 thors in the critical fight. Thats over twice the amount of minerals and three times the gas cost so it wasn't too weird the thor's lost.
MORE importantly though, tarson didn't have the proper upgrades against muta's.
Thors do 4 * 12 = 48 damage per volley against mutalisks. With 1 attack upgrade thats 56 and with 2 thats 64. 2 attack upgrades is therefore the critical amount against mutalisks who have 120 hitpoints 0 armor.
Tarson had 1-1 upgrades which is much less effective then 2-0. With proper upgrades like 2-1 or so thors still counter mutalisks very hard and with some proper scv backup 5 thors can still take out a huge load of mutalisks (like 20). (unless the muta's have 2 armor upgrades in which case you need 3 attack upgrades for thor).
The only thing this technique changed is that muta's dont get useless the moment 3 thor arrive to the scene but muta massing can still be countered with just thors alone. And this isn't the 'end' of terran mech in a long shot... Read the OP before you post stuff like this. Mutas kill Thors at a 3:1 ratio or better at numbers ~12 and greater. Upgrades do matter obviously but if you're going Mass Mutas there is no reason why you cannot upgrade Air Carapace. A Zerg can and should be able to out-produce a Terran building pure Thors with Mutas, simply because Zerg is usually up one base and Thors require multiple factories/tech labs. But of course, almost nobody builds pure Thors because they do not work once the Zerg spends even a fraction of his minerals on Zerglings. The key to the Muta build is that it stops pure mech, which invests a huge amount of resources in Hellions and Tanks. If it were just Thors or Thors + Hellions Zerg would just go mass Roach. Thor attack upgrades give a thor +2 vs light No, they don't. Not since Patch 15 anyway: http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/news/12115-starcraft-2-beta-patch-15
This beta patch was reversed on release I think. Thors do get +2 vs light from one attack upgrade, check in game stats and look at a replay and you will see.
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tarson is gonna rage if he sees this.
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This seems to be what Idra used against Tarson in the semi-finals, I didn't know about this before and when I saw Idra do it I almost shat my pants.
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On August 22 2010 06:16 Markwerf wrote:
how stupid some people on here are reacting is just rediculous. Idra beats tarson with muta's in 1 game where tarson just underestimated the muta's and didn't have the proper upgrades & spacing and suddenly mech is useless? Without thor splash 1 thor still beats 3 to 4 mutalisks and with scv repair this gets a lot better.
The more upgrades on both sides the more the thor vs muta balance shifts towards the terran, offcourse muta's give map control so it's hard to balance that vs thor immobility as it depends a lot on the map etc. but mech can still do fine.
Uh, there are dozens of pro games just not on the IdrA level of Zergs using this vs Terran mech and it completely demolishing them.
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On August 22 2010 06:16 Markwerf wrote:
how stupid some people on here are reacting is just rediculous. Idra beats tarson with muta's in 1 game where tarson just underestimated the muta's and didn't have the proper upgrades & spacing and suddenly mech is useless?
"mech" as in only/almost only mech is...not optimal, no. The top Terrans already knew that, which is why they all use biomech.
Without thor splash 1 thor still beats 3 to 4 mutalisks and with scv repair this gets a lot better.
The more upgrades on both sides the more the thor vs muta balance shifts towards the terran, offcourse muta's give map control so it's hard to balance that vs thor immobility as it depends a lot on the map etc. but mech can still do fine.
Repair isn't going to do much to bouncing-glave mutalisks. At lower numbers of mutas sure, but not massed ones. The SCVs just melt.
I suppose you could mass thors. Pity about giving up so much map control you get macrod to death, but at least you'd have lots of thors.
Mech simply isn't very good at AA. People got tricked into thinking it was by zergs clumping their mutalisks and attacking a splash damage unit.
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Ok you guys, people are interested in upgrades. So I'm going to edit that section with this later:
Sweet spot upgrade situations for...
TERRAN
Thor weapons 2
Muta Carapace 0
2-hit kill
Thor weapons 3
Muta Carapace 1
2-hit kill
2-hit also happens when they are at 3-0 obviously
ZERG
Thor weapons 0
Muta carapace 2
4-hit kill
obviously the same is true with 0-3
All other upgrade situations make it three hits.
I tested by having the critical number of thors attack all at once so we wouldn't see any long term health regen.
Quick analysis:
As soon as thor hit level 1 weapons it is impossible to get 4-hit. Once the mutas get level 2 carapace it's impossible to get 2-hit.
Just taking a numerical analysis, which is theoretical and could easily be wrong when applied: thors can potentially do 33% better against mutas or 33% worse. so in these sweet spot situations the ratio could change from 3:1 to 4:1 or 2:1. Which actually still looks pretty damn good for the zerg if you ask me.
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Is S for Stop or H for Hold recommended?
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On the other side, glaive does terribly vs armor upgrades.
0 vs 0, mutalisks do 8+2+0 to thors. 50 shots to kill 1 thor +bounce damage
0 vs 1, 7+1+0. 57 hits to kill 1 thor and bounces are 1/2 as effective.
So by default, to counter mutalisks, the first thing you should look at is their armor upgrades, if they have 0: +2 weapons, anything else: +1 is fine. After that, pumping armor ups will at a minimum, reduce glaive bounce damage by 50%
And to counter the thors, its the opposite direction get +2 armor, its always useful. After that, go to weapon ups.
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On August 22 2010 09:33 Gigaudas wrote:
Is S for Stop or H for Hold recommended?
S is more recommended because mutas have such short range, clumping to clean up the last few thors is ok, you just need to make sure your muta army doesn't evaporate immediately.
Edit: lol phone.
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On August 22 2010 09:52 Jermstuddog wrote:
On the other side, glaive does terribly vs armor upgrades.
0 vs 0, mutalisks do 8+2+0 to thors. 50 shots to kill 1 thor +bounce damage
0 vs 1, 7+1+0. 57 hits to kill 1 thor and bounces are 1/2 as effective.
So by default, to counter mutalisks, the first thing you should look at is their armor upgrades, if they have 0: +2 weapons, anything else: +1 is fine. After that, pumping armor ups will at a minimum, reduce glaive bounce damage by 50%
And to counter the thors, its the opposite direction get +2 armor, its always useful. After that, go to weapon ups.
Thanks, I will add this in the next edit too.
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On August 22 2010 06:01 Ciddass wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 04:08 Dalavita wrote:On August 22 2010 03:57 Ciddass wrote:
magic box ? it`s just that they`re vertically above the thors right, and need basically 0 range to attack since sc2 is 3d so they don`t clutch. all that hhe terran needs to do is move the focused thor a little bit and that`s it. nice nonetheless Spreading thors out is the best way to counter this, having a thor move mid battle lowers its DPS by loads because of its low mobility, and is essentially -1 thor while the rest of your army gets raped. spreading your thors has no impact on the damage that mutas get. when they are spread thors won`t do splash damge to them no matter from what angle the thors attack. this will only reduce the cleave dmg mutas do and force the Z to micro properly when the 1st thor is down => move above the next thor and regain spread. microing away the focused unit is the best way.
There is no focus tho... once you hit stop, mutas attack targets closest to them. If you target fire they'll clump up again or AT BEST form a ring around that target (depends on the number of mutas)... which will still cause some stacking and unnecessary splash damage... Best thing for terran to do is to target fire one muta after another so you get rid of them faster. If you start moving away individual thors mutas will just have free shots since one of the thors won't be attacking while it's walking away. All the zerg has to do in response is move-"S", move-"S" in the same direction the thor is going.
Disclaimer: Using common sense here as I haven't tested it myself...
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EPT
