EPT[G] ZvT Muta vs. Thor - Page 11
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
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Azar
Colombia66 Posts
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Toobz
United States88 Posts
OP, i love you.  | ||
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Ciddass
Germany149 Posts
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FunkyLich
United States107 Posts
Toobz, I love you too. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On August 22 2010 03:57 Ciddass wrote: magic box ? it`s just that they`re vertically above the thors right, and need basically 0 range to attack since sc2 is 3d so they don`t clutch. all that hhe terran needs to do is move the focused thor a little bit and that`s it. nice nonetheless Spreading thors out is the best way to counter this, having a thor move mid battle lowers its DPS by loads because of its low mobility, and is essentially -1 thor while the rest of your army gets raped. | ||
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Toobz
United States88 Posts
On August 22 2010 03:57 Ciddass wrote: magic box ? it`s just that they`re vertically above the thors right, and need basically 0 range to attack since sc2 is 3d so they don`t clutch. all that hhe terran needs to do is move the focused thor a little bit and that`s it. nice nonetheless It doesn't make Muta's the be-all-end-all against Terran mech. What it does do though is punish a Terran going pure mech. With this threat, Terrans will be forced to use different strategies and tactics. This find basically gives Zerg a little more opportunity to "call the shots" in ZvT, as mutas can really put the hurt on. I don't have a computer at the moment to try this, but I'm really excited to see the possibilities that arise because of this find. | ||
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DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
Mutas hurttttttt mech with this technique, and most meching terrans aren't using a marine-heavy enough comp to deal with this effectively (and the ones that are are bling vulnerable). If this was really as "common knowledge" as all of you claim, and you had been using this to such great effect vs. Terrans, it would have been brought up in balance discussions long ago as a viable response. Even if you all knew about the technique or had the basic idea of it, there's no way in hell you had regularly used it in an effective fashion before now. | ||
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mYfoB
Australia2 Posts
And Idra used this to win against Tarson Mech, omg Im so excited. god bless Idra, cz Dimaga has gone | ||
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Darkn3ss
United States717 Posts
On August 22 2010 04:09 Toobz wrote: It doesn't make Muta's the be-all-end-all against Terran mech. What it does do though is punish a Terran going pure mech. With this threat, Terrans will be forced to use different strategies and tactics. This find basically gives Zerg a little more opportunity to "call the shots" in ZvT, as mutas can really put the hurt on. I don't have a computer at the moment to try this, but I'm really excited to see the possibilities that arise because of this find. Well let me tell you something........ It works awesome! And 6 mutas > 2 thors ezpz (Not at the same time) but you'll also probably have roaches to stop the hellions and they do fairly well against marines too so that will add to the DPS against thors once everything else dies. Problem is... ONE simple misclick and you're FUCKED! I played a ZvT on Kulas yesterday (against my friend, who's B- Iccup... no scrub!) and Terran was as gay as terran can be on Kulas... I held off every little hellion/thor/tank/marine push he threw at me with some roach/muta (you just can't go lings vs upgraded hellions lol). I'm taking my third and fourth. He moves out with ~5 thors and a shitload of M&M... I have a shitload of roach/baneling and like ~12 mutas... since he busted the back door and went up the high ground behind my nat I panicked a bit and did what a lot of people do. 1a2a3a... While trying to fix what I've done and keep my mutas spread out and target fire rines with banelings while roaches tank I totally screwed up by having half of my army chase a couple of his units while the other half died (including my mutas). Game went downhill from there. Moral of the story: Tho it is awesome thing to know/practice... you CANNOT afford to mismicro! If you do - it's GG cuz you'll lose the bulk and the muscle of your army. The problem is still the early game. Securing a fast expo safely in early game and powering drones is almost non-existent in SC2... sole existence of Reapers denies your hatch before pool even if your opponent is not planning on doing it. Free bunkers don't help either... Terran is the perfect race to play atm... Zerg is severely crippled... I give a lot of credit to zergs who consistently win vs terran! ^^ | ||
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koOma
Norway462 Posts
On August 22 2010 03:46 Ghad wrote: I just sat there when Idra played and was thinking so hard that I hope he knew about this, and was so happy when i saw those first mutas fly past Tarsons thors. soon as appollo said he had figured out a new technique i was fistpumping :D | ||
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koOma
Norway462 Posts
On August 22 2010 03:57 Ciddass wrote: magic box ? it`s just that they`re vertically above the thors right, and need basically 0 range to attack since sc2 is 3d so they don`t clutch. all that hhe terran needs to do is move the focused thor a little bit and that`s it. nice nonetheless yeah this is actually awesome cuz it'll make for some interesting muta vs thor micro | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
In the idra vs tarson game it was 31 !! muta vs 5 thors in the critical fight. Thats over twice the amount of minerals and three times the gas cost so it wasn't too weird the thor's lost. MORE importantly though, tarson didn't have the proper upgrades against muta's. Thors do 4 * 12 = 48 damage per volley against mutalisks. With 1 attack upgrade thats 56 and with 2 thats 64. 2 attack upgrades is therefore the critical amount against mutalisks who have 120 hitpoints 0 armor. Tarson had 1-1 upgrades which is much less effective then 2-0. With proper upgrades like 2-1 or so thors still counter mutalisks very hard and with some proper scv backup 5 thors can still take out a huge load of mutalisks (like 20). (unless the muta's have 2 armor upgrades in which case you need 3 attack upgrades for thor). The only thing this technique changed is that muta's dont get useless the moment 3 thor arrive to the scene but muta massing can still be countered with just thors alone. And this isn't the 'end' of terran mech in a long shot... | ||
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Toksec
8 Posts
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On August 22 2010 04:46 Markwerf wrote: This technique is great but it won't stop thors from countering muta's quite hard. In the idra vs tarson game it was 31 !! muta vs 5 thors in the critical fight. Thats over twice the amount of minerals and three times the gas cost so it wasn't too weird the thor's lost. MORE importantly though, tarson didn't have the proper upgrades against muta's. Thors do 4 * 12 = 48 damage per volley against mutalisks. With 1 attack upgrade thats 56 and with 2 thats 64. 2 attack upgrades is therefore the critical amount against mutalisks who have 120 hitpoints 0 armor. Tarson had 1-1 upgrades which is much less effective then 2-0. With proper upgrades like 2-1 or so thors still counter mutalisks very hard and with some proper scv backup 5 thors can still take out a huge load of mutalisks (like 20). (unless the muta's have 2 armor upgrades in which case you need 3 attack upgrades for thor). The only thing this technique changed is that muta's dont get useless the moment 3 thor arrive to the scene but muta massing can still be countered with just thors alone. And this isn't the 'end' of terran mech in a long shot... Read the OP before you post stuff like this. Mutas kill Thors at a 3:1 ratio or better at numbers ~12 and greater. Upgrades do matter obviously but if you're going Mass Mutas there is no reason why you cannot upgrade Air Carapace. A Zerg can and should be able to out-produce a Terran building pure Thors with Mutas, simply because Zerg is usually up one base and Thors require multiple factories/tech labs. But of course, almost nobody builds pure Thors because they do not work once the Zerg spends even a fraction of his minerals on Zerglings. The key to the Muta build is that it stops pure mech, which invests a huge amount of resources in Hellions and Tanks. If it were just Thors or Thors + Hellions Zerg would just go mass Roach. | ||
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RxN
United States255 Posts
On August 22 2010 04:28 RampancyTW wrote: All the people claiming "LOL NO BIG DEAL KNOWN THIS FOREVER" are pretty hilarious. Mutas hurttttttt mech with this technique, and most meching terrans aren't using a marine-heavy enough comp to deal with this effectively (and the ones that are are bling vulnerable). If this was really as "common knowledge" as all of you claim, and you had been using this to such great effect vs. Terrans, it would have been brought up in balance discussions long ago as a viable response. Even if you all knew about the technique or had the basic idea of it, there's no way in hell you had regularly used it in an effective fashion before now. It was mentioned on here a few times during the beta. I pretty much just brushed it off as hearsay and never really gave it a second thought. What a mistake that was. Great thread, op. | ||
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Gamidragon
United States45 Posts
Thanks OP! | ||
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Bull-Demon
United States582 Posts
On August 22 2010 04:28 RampancyTW wrote: All the people claiming "LOL NO BIG DEAL KNOWN THIS FOREVER" are pretty hilarious. Mutas hurttttttt mech with this technique, and most meching terrans aren't using a marine-heavy enough comp to deal with this effectively (and the ones that are are bling vulnerable). If this was really as "common knowledge" as all of you claim, and you had been using this to such great effect vs. Terrans, it would have been brought up in balance discussions long ago as a viable response. Even if you all knew about the technique or had the basic idea of it, there's no way in hell you had regularly used it in an effective fashion before now. Pretty sure I saw people everyday saying mutas were the answer. The problem with the majority of people on this forum is people can't/won't think for themselves. Every strat is newb silver/gold league shit until a pro does it in a tournament. People need to be more open to new strategies instead of instantly writing it off until they see it on some well known stream. | ||
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