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[G] ZvT Muta vs. Thor - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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AlienAlias
Profile Joined June 2009
United States324 Posts
August 20 2010 06:41 GMT
#41
wow, this looks great, i can't wait to try this out. i had almost just given up on muta ZvT what with marines, turrets, and thors.
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
August 20 2010 06:43 GMT
#42
This is great, thanks a ton for this post. Didn't know that thors had such small splash radius (although it makes sense because it is TONS of dps if the mutas are stacked incorrectly). Tried it out myself and 18 mutas taking out 6 thors with 5 mutas leftover is CRAZY. Love it! Thanks a ton, and I will definitely be using this in-game!
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
SeaSmoke
Profile Joined July 2010
United States326 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-20 06:53:33
August 20 2010 06:51 GMT
#43
omfg thank you gonna try this immediately.

edit: question...with a large number of mutas, is it better to hit "s" and stop them over the thors or to still target fire one, which may end up bunching a few...?
skindzer
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
Chile5114 Posts
August 20 2010 06:57 GMT
#44
Can someone make a map to test this? Laddering aint too "test friendly".

BTW great find OP
Its not only the rain that brings the thunder
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
August 20 2010 06:59 GMT
#45
On August 20 2010 15:51 SeaSmoke wrote:
omfg thank you gonna try this immediately.

edit: question...with a large number of mutas, is it better to hit "s" and stop them over the thors or to still target fire one, which may end up bunching a few...?


I found that hitting "H" is best cause they won't clump up for sure.
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
me_viet
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia1350 Posts
August 20 2010 07:00 GMT
#46
lol oh god something just occured to me. I hope Blizzard doesn't look at this and go "oh hey, Thor splash isn't really splashing anymore....let's increase aoe"

I will break my sc2 cd if that happens. That or change to P =P
DrivE
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States2554 Posts
August 20 2010 07:01 GMT
#47
wow i tried this on a unit testing map and 10 mutas beat 3 thors O_O (with one muta remaining)

LUCK IS NO EXCUSE
NeoLearner
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Belgium1847 Posts
August 20 2010 07:03 GMT
#48
On August 20 2010 15:57 skindzer wrote:
Can someone make a map to test this? Laddering aint too "test friendly".

BTW great find OP


You can use the unit tester map. I think this is still the one most people use:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124763

Or if you want to make a complete build, YABOT:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128752
and make a custom wave of a few thors with a few marines or something.
Bankai - Correlation does not imply causation
FunkyLich
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States107 Posts
August 20 2010 07:03 GMT
#49
On August 20 2010 15:41 Ouga wrote:
Will have to look into this. I don't see how mutas would avoid all the aoe while moving towards thors though, which is usually the deadly part. Situation likely won't be 12 v 4, if you focus on mutas and if it works to bug out aoe, you'll probably have a lot more. It sounds unlikely that you could totally dodge the aoe if you were attacking with 24mutas from one direction.

I highly doubt this is the reason they haven't nerfed terran If unit has small aoe, it's supposed to do aoe against 24 relatively packed units. I'd like them to make the aoe part of it more clear. Not something you can abuse with tricks, just nerf it altogether.


Moving towards them is the easy part. Moving, parking, and shooting is the hard part. Try it. There is absolutely no reason you should be taking AoE while you're just moving (and using the magic box correctly) unless of course the thors are shooting hunter seeker missiles. (Which I hope Blizzard implements in the next patch)
ZomgTossRush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1041 Posts
August 20 2010 07:15 GMT
#50
Great, OP!

I always knew this, but in the heat of battle i always just wave it off, now i know that this is probably imperative.

1. I think that the clumping is the natural tendency stemming from BW where clumping ur mutas where a do or die tactic.

2. The only problem with this in game application is you have to count in marine fire which is the biggest problem.

3. It also is a pain when harrassing because if u want to target fire a tech lab/scvs/turrets, you have to re split the mutas, possible, but a few more actions to have to do.
Coaching for 1v1 and Team games at Gosucoaching.com
MoNoNauT
Profile Joined April 2010
United States74 Posts
August 20 2010 07:18 GMT
#51
This... Changes... Everything...

Seriously, I just played a game against a Terran that had been talking about how awesome his ZvT was all night during this KOTH we were having... throughout the game I killed at least 12 thors, 2 or 3 at a time, only losing half a dozen or so mutalisks doing so.

Thank you OP, I have a feeling this is going to change a LOT of players' opinions about the matchup... it certainly has for me.
"The best counter to anything in Starcraft is to go fuckin' kill him." - Day[9]
TriniMasta
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1323 Posts
August 20 2010 07:18 GMT
#52
Yeah Thors don't really counter mutalisks by themselves (unless you just mass em), just make sure you don't receive too much splash damage.
정명훈 FIGHTING!!! Play both T and P.
SeaSmoke
Profile Joined July 2010
United States326 Posts
August 20 2010 07:19 GMT
#53
so, from now on when someone asks about mutas vs thors, can we please stop saying "spread your mutas" and start saying "don't clump mutas" please??

i was so confused thinking people were clicking each one and placing them during battles.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-20 07:34:31
August 20 2010 07:32 GMT
#54
ohm, pretty long post, but you could have written instead is:

Select your mutas, move them towards the area behind the thors, hit stop when you reach the Thors.

You could have saved a lot of time, and btw this was posted already in 2-3 topic starting posts iirc


Btw nobody uses Thors on their own, maybe in large enough numbers, but really, there's always support, so it's not this easy, actually it's really hard
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Sealteam
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia296 Posts
August 20 2010 07:37 GMT
#55
This is a great post, thanks for the info it's very useful!
Ignore any naysayers they're just bitter and mean.
Malminos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States321 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-20 08:06:38
August 20 2010 08:03 GMT
#56

Only a gold player here :p Yeah lets just let the naysayers say their nays. I just tried this on a terran pumping thors/mauraders.
I went mass muta, saw his thors, and remembered what i saw in this thread earlier today and decided "might as well give it a shot"and it worked like a charm.

Much to my opponent's amazement my mutas were neither afraid of his thors, nor took very many losses at all. Pretty funny to watch his reaction when i kill his first 2 thors. "omg" is all he can say.

Hopefully this replay illustrates decent execution of this tactic, it worked well for me.

[image loading]
"To dream of because become happiness "
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-20 08:28:33
August 20 2010 08:23 GMT
#57
Surprised that this is being treated as new info.

Thors beat mutas in both gas and supply. They are plenty sufficient and I'm not going to agree that mutas are OP simply because your 3 Thors can't kill 30 mutalisks unassisted. The thing that is OP as fuck about Thors in TvZ is that they are a soft counter to EVERYTHING. The perfect embodiment of TvZ right there: you would only get thors to stop mutas, its already been stated in this thread several times, it just so happens that they're pretty damn good against everything else Z has too.

Marines are an even better counter to mutas. 0 gas vs 100 gas? yes please. Again, also good against everything Zerg except banelings and ultras, still 0 gas vs 100+


Not knocking OPs post, because he has good pictures and such, but how is everybody acting like this is a new thing for Zerg? Mutas being able to take Thors roughly 4:1 is the only thing keeping ZvT not completely laughable right now.

Even with smooth moves like this, I lost a game today which came down to 23 mutas and about 4 roaches vs 5 thors, 16 marines, 3 hellions, and 5 SCVs, you know who won? The guy who right-clicked an auto heal ability, and 1a'd his way through 4 bases off of 2. For the record, 0 Thors died in the process.

Please stop acting like mutas are OMG OP...
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-20 08:50:19
August 20 2010 08:46 GMT
#58
On August 20 2010 17:03 Malminos wrote:

Only a gold player here :p Yeah lets just let the naysayers say their nays. I just tried this on a terran pumping thors/mauraders.
I went mass muta, saw his thors, and remembered what i saw in this thread earlier today and decided "might as well give it a shot"and it worked like a charm.

Much to my opponent's amazement my mutas were neither afraid of his thors, nor took very many losses at all. Pretty funny to watch his reaction when i kill his first 2 thors. "omg" is all he can say.

Hopefully this replay illustrates decent execution of this tactic, it worked well for me.

[image loading]

so he went marauders as support unit vs mutas? Yes, that rep must be a legit example how well mutas work against well built thor-based Terran armies

Btw i'm simply amazed so many people treat this as sg new, this has been discussed in topics, used by pros etc...
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Armsved
Profile Joined May 2010
Denmark642 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-20 08:48:07
August 20 2010 08:47 GMT
#59
On August 20 2010 17:23 Jermstuddog wrote:
Surprised that this is being treated as new info.

Thors beat mutas in both gas and supply. They are plenty sufficient and I'm not going to agree that mutas are OP simply because your 3 Thors can't kill 30 mutalisks unassisted. The thing that is OP as fuck about Thors in TvZ is that they are a soft counter to EVERYTHING. The perfect embodiment of TvZ right there: you would only get thors to stop mutas, its already been stated in this thread several times, it just so happens that they're pretty damn good against everything else Z has too.

Marines are an even better counter to mutas. 0 gas vs 100 gas? yes please. Again, also good against everything Zerg except banelings and ultras, still 0 gas vs 100+


Not knocking OPs post, because he has good pictures and such, but how is everybody acting like this is a new thing for Zerg? Mutas being able to take Thors roughly 4:1 is the only thing keeping ZvT not completely laughable right now.

Even with smooth moves like this, I lost a game today which came down to 23 mutas and about 4 roaches vs 5 thors, 16 marines, 3 hellions, and 5 SCVs, you know who won? The guy who right-clicked an auto heal ability, and 1a'd his way through 4 bases off of 2. For the record, 0 Thors died in the process.

Please stop acting like mutas are OMG OP...


You are right, however in all these "ZvT is unbalanced" threads we see a lot of plat/low diamond, hell even mid diamond, complaining that T is OP simply based on "marauders are OP", "Thors are too strong vs muta", "tanks are too strong" etc. etc. And this is simply because people at this level do not understand how to work around these units. This thread is great at making Z players atleast understand how to work around Thors.

Players like Idra are not complaining about the individual units are too strong, but simply that T has too many opening that are simply too hard to scout which makes the matchup somewhat a coinflip for Z.

Muta linx Banling would had done great in the sitiuation you descriped. Also yeah marines do very well against any air, but they also die hard from baneling and fungal or pretty much any AOE.

What im basicly saying is the people acting "OMG OP" are the people who arent high level and are complaining about all kind of jazz which they really shouldnt complaing about. (thor vs muta etc.)
YOOO
link0
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1071 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-20 08:54:44
August 20 2010 08:54 GMT
#60
On August 20 2010 17:47 Armsved wrote:

Players like Idra are not complaining about the individual units are too strong, but simply that T has too many opening that are simply too hard to scout which makes the matchup somewhat a coinflip for Z.


Exactly. People need to actually understand the matchup before crying about the wrong thing. T v Z is imbalanced, but not for the things more people cry about.



To OP: good post.
http://www.justin.tv/link0 - Gosu.Linko - http://www.facebook.com/link0
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