• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:13
CET 02:13
KST 10:13
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win42025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!9BSL21 Open Qualifiers Week & CONFIRM PARTICIPATION1Crank Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams10Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest3
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win Could we add "Avoid Matchup" Feature for rankgame RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" The New Patch Killed Mech! Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou
Tourneys
Crank Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship $3,500 WardiTV Korean Royale S4
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment
Brood War
General
Ladder Map Matchup Stats BW General Discussion BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals The Casual Games of the Week Thread BSL21 Open Qualifiers Week & CONFIRM PARTICIPATION ASL final tickets help
Strategy
How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread The Chess Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
MLB/Baseball 2023 2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Analysis of the Trump-Lee S…
Peanutsc
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
The Benefits Of Limited Comm…
TrAiDoS
Our Last Hope in th…
KrillinFromwales
Certified Crazy
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1300 users

SEL Fall Championship 2024 (SC: Evo Mod)

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
6 CommentsPost a Reply
MrIronGolem27
Profile Joined July 2020
United States229 Posts
October 20 2024 17:23 GMT
#1
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


StarCraft Evolution League Fall Championship 2024

Prize Pool: $1,100 + Matcherino contributions

Brought to you by Yu StarCraft - please help him out by subscribing!

You must join the Discord server to participate -> Join here

◉ Qualifier registration
◉ Qualifier Date: Saturday, November 2, 10 AM EDT / 3 PM CET / 11 PM KST
◉ Main Event Date: Saturday/Sunday, November 16-17/23-24, 7 AM EST / 1 PM CET / 9 PM KST
◉ Discord
◉ Liquipedia
◉ Streams: See here.
Facebook Twitter Reddit
HyperONE - StarCraft Evolution League organizer, SC: Evo Complete developer, mapmaker (author of Magannatha, TLMC19 2nd place, TLMC17 3rd+5th place), Liquipedia editor
MrIronGolem27
Profile Joined July 2020
United States229 Posts
November 01 2024 22:44 GMT
#2
Last chance to sign up, we're starting in just over 12 hours
HyperONE - StarCraft Evolution League organizer, SC: Evo Complete developer, mapmaker (author of Magannatha, TLMC19 2nd place, TLMC17 3rd+5th place), Liquipedia editor
MrIronGolem27
Profile Joined July 2020
United States229 Posts
November 11 2024 22:49 GMT
#3
[image loading]

[image loading]


All 16 players for the main event have been confirmed, groups will be announced shortly.
HyperONE - StarCraft Evolution League organizer, SC: Evo Complete developer, mapmaker (author of Magannatha, TLMC19 2nd place, TLMC17 3rd+5th place), Liquipedia editor
MrIronGolem27
Profile Joined July 2020
United States229 Posts
November 12 2024 07:46 GMT
#4
[image loading]
HyperONE - StarCraft Evolution League organizer, SC: Evo Complete developer, mapmaker (author of Magannatha, TLMC19 2nd place, TLMC17 3rd+5th place), Liquipedia editor
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33469 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-11-12 21:51:55
November 12 2024 21:40 GMT
#5
Haven't checked in on the mod in a while; good to see the competition is still rolling along like this.

How's balance looking for the tournament? Is it playable by just picking one of each SC2/BW race, or are there some bad match-ups that force you to learn a back-up race?
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
MrIronGolem27
Profile Joined July 2020
United States229 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-11-13 03:13:10
November 13 2024 00:32 GMT
#6
On November 13 2024 06:40 Waxangel wrote:
Haven't checked in on the mod in a while; good to see the competition is still rolling along like this.

How's balance looking for the tournament? Is it playable by just picking one of each SC2/BW race, or are there some bad match-ups that force you to learn a back-up race?


I was going to write a shorter response, but considering this might be a unique opportunity to more thoroughly explain what's been going on with the mod, I've written a wall of text. I apologize that it's a bit disorganized.

Speaking in my capacity as the head organizer for SEL and a member of Team Koprulu (though, until recently, only as a mapmaker): balancing SC: Evo Complete has been tough.

Between May and June, the BW races had relatively slow, expensive tech and ineffective basic combat units and were propped up by having a substantial income advantage (~12% higher mineral income per worker). The idea was that the BW races would have their income advantage reduced to 0% over time and their army and tech made more effective; v1.5 in June reduced the mineral advantage from ~12% to ~9%. Unfortunately, we under-compensated in buffs and the BW races ended up having such awful early game defense that all-ins were the only viable way to play. The Chzzk Cup got ruined over it; BW races had less than a 20% winrate and thousands of Korean viewers left with a poor impression of the mod's balance.

Since August, we've been continued patching up the early game holes and easing the tech progression into the mid- and late-game by continuing to buff the BW races while gradually nerfing the income advantage, which currently sits at ~6%; we tried to reduce this all the way to 0% but there ended up simply being no more room to buff production times to compensate. We are also committed to preserving the identity of the BW races (so no adding/removing tags, rearranging the tech tree, adding new abilities or weird bonus damage types like vs. Hover) so the levers we are working with are relatively limited. If you're interested in what those patches look like, you can read about them here.

Currently, BW Zerg is considered a solid race and the strongest of the three BW races, with no problematic matchups (maybe even a bit too strong all-around, especially against SC2 Zerg). The state of BW Terran and BW Protoss are more contentious.

Historically, there have been some matchups that called for a backup race; BW Protoss vs SC2 Protoss used to be so bad that it tended to be won by whoever got to play SC2 Protoss first, and the player forced to play BW first often kept a few all-ins in their back pocket as BW Zerg. The Chzzk Cup was a prime demonstration of this, where herO was knocked out of the lower bracket by a ~5k MMR Protoss executing a BW Zerg 12 pool drone pull (it should be noted BW Drones had 1 range and a faster attack speed than SC2 workers at the time).

When I began the StarCraft Evolution League in August, I instituted a rule requiring all participants to play one BW race and one SC2 race for the entire event. Partly, this was to prevent a particular top player from sandbagging in the finals, but it was also to help us collect more reliable balance data (so we can see what makes a weak race weak) and create an identity around each player. That rule remains in effect for the Fall Championship, so players will not be able to select a backup race.

The balance is greatly improved from the days of the Chzzk Cup, though many concerns still remain; for example, the state of BW Protoss vs SC2 Protoss remains uncertain despite some badly needed, massive buffs to the Reaver in the form of anti-Shield bonus damage. Moreover, the 5.0.14 PTR could hit live servers in the middle of the event, and there's no telling what that might do. We are internally discussing some changes which could be pushed in case that happens, but of course, it depends on the actual contents of the 5.0.14 patch.
HyperONE - StarCraft Evolution League organizer, SC: Evo Complete developer, mapmaker (author of Magannatha, TLMC19 2nd place, TLMC17 3rd+5th place), Liquipedia editor
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25951 Posts
November 13 2024 02:45 GMT
#7
On November 13 2024 09:32 MrIronGolem27 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 13 2024 06:40 Waxangel wrote:
Haven't checked in on the mod in a while; good to see the competition is still rolling along like this.

How's balance looking for the tournament? Is it playable by just picking one of each SC2/BW race, or are there some bad match-ups that force you to learn a back-up race?


I was going to write a shorter response, but considering this might be a unique opportunity to more thoroughly explain what's been going on with the mod, I've written a wall of text. I apologize that it's a bit disorganized.

Speaking in my capacity as the head organizer for SEL and a member of Team Koprulu (though, until recently, only as a mapmaker): balancing SC: Evo Complete has been tough.

Between May and June, the BW races had relatively slow, expensive tech and ineffective basic combat units and were propped up by having a substantial income advantage (~12% higher mineral income per worker). The idea was that the BW races would have their income advantage reduced to 0% over time and their army and tech made more effective; v1.5 in June reduced the mineral advantage from ~12% to ~9%. Unfortunately, we under-compensated in buffs and the BW races ended up having such awful early game defense that all-ins were the only viable way to play. The Chzzk Cup got ruined over it; BW races had less than a 20% winrate and thousands of Korean viewers left with a poor impression of the mod's balance.

Since August, we've been continued patching up the early game holes and easing the tech progression into the mid- and late-game by continuing to buff the BW races while gradually nerfing the income advantage, which currently sits at ~6%; we tried to reduce this all the way to 0% but there ended up simply being no more room to buff production times to compensate. If you're interested in what those patches look like, you can read about them here.

Currently, BW Zerg is considered a solid race and the strongest of the three BW races, with no problematic matchups (maybe even a bit too strong all-around, especially against SC2 Zerg). The state of BW Terran and BW Protoss are more contentious.

Historically, there have been some matchups that called for a backup race; BW Protoss vs SC2 Protoss used to be so bad that it tended to be won by whoever got to play SC2 Protoss first, and the player forced to play BW first often kept a few all-ins in their back pocket as BW Zerg. The Chzzk Cup was a prime demonstration of this, where herO was knocked out of the lower bracket by a ~5k MMR Protoss executing a BW Zerg 12 pool drone pull (it should be noted BW Drones had 1 range and a faster attack speed than SC2 workers at the time).

When I began the StarCraft Evolution League in August, I instituted a rule requiring all participants to play one BW race and one SC2 race for the entire event. Partly, this was to prevent a particular top player from sandbagging in the finals, but it was also to help us collect more reliable balance data (so we can see what makes a weak race weak) and create an identity around each player. That rule remains in effect for the Fall Championship, so players will not be able to select a backup race.

The balance is greatly improved from the days of the Chzzk Cup, though a number of concerns still remain; for example, the state of BW Protoss vs SC2 Protoss remains uncertain despite some badly needed, massive buffs to the Reaver in the form of anti-Shield bonus damage. Moreover, the 5.0.14 PTR could hit live servers in the middle of the event, and there's no telling what that might do. We are internally discussing some changes which could be pushed in case that happens, but of course, it depends on the actual contents of the 5.0.14 patch.

Cheers for the insight, it’s certainly a tough challenge
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
23:00
Crank Gathers S2: Playoffs D2
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 74
CosmosSc2 30
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 776
yabsab 42
NaDa 24
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm52
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
fl0m1116
Foxcn159
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox1790
Other Games
summit1g11592
Grubby2530
Day[9].tv552
ViBE168
C9.Mang0165
Maynarde145
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick880
BasetradeTV63
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 52
• Hupsaiya 51
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21539
League of Legends
• Doublelift4514
• Stunt253
Other Games
• Scarra836
• Day9tv552
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
7h 47m
OSC
10h 47m
Harstem vs SKillous
Gerald vs Spirit
Krystianer vs TriGGeR
Cham vs Ryung
CrankTV Team League
11h 47m
Team Liquid vs Team Falcon
Replay Cast
1d 8h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 10h
ByuN vs Spirit
herO vs Solar
MaNa vs Gerald
Rogue vs GuMiho
Epic.LAN
1d 10h
CrankTV Team League
1d 11h
BASILISK vs TBD
Replay Cast
2 days
Epic.LAN
2 days
BSL Team A[vengers]
2 days
Dewalt vs Shine
UltrA vs ZeLoT
[ Show More ]
BSL 21
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
BSL Team A[vengers]
3 days
Cross vs Motive
Sziky vs HiyA
BSL 21
3 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
WardiTV TLMC #15
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
BSL 21 Team A
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
META Madness #9
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.