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PTR Discussion with MaxPax, Gerald, Spirit, Cham and more!
Steadfast, Hyperturtle, Cham, Gerald, Spirit, Maxpax and I have a friendly discussion on the current balance changes with a list of questions we hope people are interested about. It's an informative discussion on pros opinions on what their thoughts are about the state of the patch. We are late to the discussion but its better late than never. Feedback is appreciated
ON CAMERA: Steadfast, Drikett Hyper Turtle, Cham, Gerald
OFF CAMERA: Spirit, Maxpax
here is the Document of questions we proposed
Questions for interview on PTR 5.0.14
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Ayaaa not a lot of flow in this, at the beginning at least. I'll watch all of it but not in one sitting 
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On November 20 2024 01:40 Nebuchad wrote:Ayaaa not a lot of flow in this, at the beginning at least. I'll watch all of it but not in one sitting
Yea i agree, sorry, it starts a bit dry and thats on me since its my first time organizing something like this. It does get interesting later in the video, but i don't doubt itll be hard to get into at first. Appreciate you giving it a chance, my hope was to allow pros to give a voice on a healthy and fair discussion without hating on anything proposed with bias as much as we could.
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I appreciate the work, it's always cool to get new data points
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Cool, thank you for the content. I definitively agree with most of the comments of the Pros.
With Protoss dying more often in early game PvT and not being able to be aggressive in late game, the match-up will be worse. More all-ins in PvP will make it worse too. More roaches in TvZ and PvZ is also not exciting. Plus no mutas in ZvZ, same thing.
Hopefully TvT is improving without cyclones.
Overall a worse game to watch, or perhaps I am pessimistic today.
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It's just depressing how no one is excited for anything in the patch, they rly do suck at patching the game, give 'em the boot already.
Most excitement was from cham becaue now toss will die to more allins, is that really what we need at the pro lvl atm?
Not faulting the players btw, it's the "developers" that are to be blaimed.
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Northern Ireland27015 Posts
On November 20 2024 23:25 ejozl wrote:
It's just depressing how no one is excited for anything in the patch, they rly do suck at patching the game, give 'em the boot already.
Most excitement was from cham becaue now toss will die to more allins, is that really what we need at the pro lvl atm?
Not faulting the players btw, it's the "developers" that are to be blaimed.
Speak for yourself.
Energy overcharge is much more strategically and tactically interesting, I hope they persist in this direction and figure out the actual balance. It’s one of the most interesting tweaks I’ve seen in ages and I rather like it.
If they can’t make it work, well the problem is historic design that requires Protoss to have a mothership core battery overcharge or they just die.
That sucks, it’s not interesting, it’s a total sticking plaster.
If I had a wider issue there’s too many changes, some good, some bad IMO but we need to see how they work. But there’s so many at once that it’s hard to figure out what’s causing what impacts, at the same time as a map change also shifts the meta.
I would have personally rather have had 2 patches split 3 and 4 months apart trying things, than a big wait and then a ton of them at once after 7 months
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Agreed with wombat, love this patch, really what the community wanted.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgflip.com/9b1l5j.jpg)
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Northern Ireland27015 Posts
On November 21 2024 03:40 luxon wrote:
Agreed with wombat, love this patch, really what the community wanted.
To quote myself ‘Energy overcharge is much more strategically and tactically interesting, I hope they persist in this direction and figure out the actual balance.’
There are good ideas there, there are bad ones. As I also said in my post I think they threw too many ingredients into the soup, so it’s hard to figure out what flavour is working and what isn’t.
I’ve been plenty critical historically and in contemporary times but some of the community are frankly just insane on this lately.
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Yeah to be less facetious, I think if I didn't play the game I'd like it as a viewer, since it changes the meta. But I'm not 6.5k so it is pretty impossible to play pvt right now. Also balance is not just who just beats whom; if you weaken all zerg units by 20% Serral would still beat everyone (cf uthermal's video showing this), but that doesn't mean that it's balanced.
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Northern Ireland27015 Posts
On November 21 2024 04:25 luxon wrote:
Yeah to be less facetious, I think if I didn't play the game I'd like it as a viewer, since it changes the meta. But I'm not 6.5k so it is pretty impossible to play pvt right now. Also balance is not just who just beats whom; if you weaken all zerg units by 20% Serral would still beat everyone (cf uthermal's video showing this), but that doesn't mean that it's balanced.
Sure, perhaps they need more resources.
I think if you can get rid of battery overcharge, but keep Toss viable then energy overcharge replacing it is an absolute win. It’s a way more interesting mechanic.
But it feels they have decent ideas, but not sufficient runway to really stick the landing.
To go extreme I mean I think removing warp gate or making it late game tech would be good for the game. But it takes too much other rebalancing to implement. Only said it for like a decade.
I think that’s a good direction, but let’s say they did it but hadn’t fixed the rest of balancing and Protoss was just absolutely awful, well it’s not a good change overall.
I think the energy/battery overcharge is in a similar but less extreme boat in that ideally I think the former is way more interesting, but if you can’t implement it without further weakening Toss it’s not really worth it at this juncture
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It's more interesting sure, but how can it rly add more than the overcharge? It only works if you open oracle. And while you might deal some epic dmg abroad you can lose the game to 8 lings or a marine drop. This is the trade off, it isn't more interesting if you're a corpse.
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In order to make Energy Overcharge help fill the hole that Battery Overcharge left vs early T tank/raven pushes, and less disproportionately help PvZ and make Oracles even more the only go-to standard opener, I think we could do something like this:
Energy Overcharge: Restores 250 Shield + 125 Energy to the target over 10 seconds
-Would be able to keep a Colossus or Immortal alive for longer during holds; combined with a Battery would effectively allow the unit's shields to be restored at the same rate as the previous Battery Overcharge (150% of a Battery's restore rate), making it closer fulfill the role of a weaker Battery Overcharge.
-Still not as "frustrating" as Battery Overcharge because you can't switch targets, so the enemy can still target down other units, just that Protoss gets to keep key tech units alive longer and reduces game ending dependability on them
-You could even play around with the "Overcharge" idea and allow Energy Overcharge to restore Shields+Energy past the target's normal max Shield/Energy capacity. For example, a Colossus could be Overcharged to potentially reach a max of 350 Shield temporarily, allowing it to be super tanky during a push for a short time. Of course, the numbers can be adjusted for balance, maybe 200 Shields + 100 Energy over 10 seconds, and the max Shield/Energy capacity resets back to normal at the end of the 10 sec.
-Makes the ability more visible and allows chances to counter it or react and back off. For example, picking off the unit being Overcharged if it's too far forward, EMP'ing it, or just retreating. Currently it might be a little surprising with the instant boost.
Again, this has low chance of being OP because you can simply target the other units down first. At the same time, with 1 unit getting a tanky buff, it helps P defend early T pushes by absorbing more tank shots or letting it live when it gets Matrix'd.
The main use of the ability would still be just to recharge energy on your units either for defense or to be active on the map. However, it provides an alternative function that specifically helps P defend early T pushes, and allows Overcharge to benefit Robo builds not just Oracle/Sentry/HTs.
As for Disruptors not being good enough PvT lategame: if this is true and hitting that ~10 Disruptor count doesn't make Protoss super hard to beat as Terran, then maybe Disruptor supply should revert back to 3, and Tempest supply should be kept at 5. Otherwise, a maxed Protoss army with Tempests may be too good vs other capital ships like BLs or BCs. 25% more Tempests really tips the math.
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Northern Ireland27015 Posts
On November 23 2024 04:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
In order to make Energy Overcharge help fill the hole that Battery Overcharge left vs early T tank/raven pushes, and less disproportionately help PvZ and make Oracles even more the only go-to standard opener, I think we could do something like this:
Energy Overcharge: Restores 250 Shield + 125 Energy to the target over 10 seconds
-Would be able to keep a Colossus or Immortal alive for longer during holds; combined with a Battery would effectively allow the unit's shields to be restored at the same rate as the previous Battery Overcharge (150% of a Battery's restore rate), making it closer fulfill the role of a weaker Battery Overcharge.
-Still not as "frustrating" as Battery Overcharge because you can't switch targets, so the enemy can still target down other units, just that Protoss gets to keep key tech units alive longer and reduces game ending dependability on them
-You could even play around with the "Overcharge" idea and allow Energy Overcharge to restore Shields+Energy past the target's normal max Shield/Energy capacity. For example, a Colossus could be Overcharged to potentially reach a max of 350 Shield temporarily, allowing it to be super tanky during a push for a short time. Of course, the numbers can be adjusted for balance, maybe 200 Shields + 100 Energy over 10 seconds, and the max Shield/Energy capacity resets back to normal at the end of the 10 sec.
-Makes the ability more visible and allows chances to counter it or react and back off. For example, picking off the unit being Overcharged if it's too far forward, EMP'ing it, or just retreating. Currently it might be a little surprising with the instant boost.
Again, this has low chance of being OP because you can simply target the other units down first. At the same time, with 1 unit getting a tanky buff, it helps P defend early T pushes by absorbing more tank shots or letting it live when it gets Matrix'd.
The main use of the ability would still be just to recharge energy on your units either for defense or to be active on the map. However, it provides an alternative function that specifically helps P defend early T pushes, and allows Overcharge to benefit Robo builds not just Oracle/Sentry/HTs.
K’now I rather like this proposition
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Your honor, in all honesty I think pro should be the last one to balance the game, it's a bit of conflict of interest sort of things. And SC2 has been boring for ages.
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If you want to nerf ghosts EMP then balance council have to create a ring radius inside only 50 shield points are lost. I think comments about ghost are really sad and it shows how fast the council should react.
Problem is they haven t the control on the PTR and it will ask some months to implement new changes while these are simple and basics changes.
Again, a PTR LAB should help everybody...
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On November 23 2024 04:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
In order to make Energy Overcharge help fill the hole that Battery Overcharge left vs early T tank/raven pushes, and less disproportionately help PvZ and make Oracles even more the only go-to standard opener, I think we could do something like this:
Energy Overcharge: Restores 250 Shield + 125 Energy to the target over 10 seconds
-Would be able to keep a Colossus or Immortal alive for longer during holds; combined with a Battery would effectively allow the unit's shields to be restored at the same rate as the previous Battery Overcharge (150% of a Battery's restore rate), making it closer fulfill the role of a weaker Battery Overcharge.
-Still not as "frustrating" as Battery Overcharge because you can't switch targets, so the enemy can still target down other units, just that Protoss gets to keep key tech units alive longer and reduces game ending dependability on them
-You could even play around with the "Overcharge" idea and allow Energy Overcharge to restore Shields+Energy past the target's normal max Shield/Energy capacity. For example, a Colossus could be Overcharged to potentially reach a max of 350 Shield temporarily, allowing it to be super tanky during a push for a short time. Of course, the numbers can be adjusted for balance, maybe 200 Shields + 100 Energy over 10 seconds, and the max Shield/Energy capacity resets back to normal at the end of the 10 sec.
-Makes the ability more visible and allows chances to counter it or react and back off. For example, picking off the unit being Overcharged if it's too far forward, EMP'ing it, or just retreating. Currently it might be a little surprising with the instant boost.
Again, this has low chance of being OP because you can simply target the other units down first. At the same time, with 1 unit getting a tanky buff, it helps P defend early T pushes by absorbing more tank shots or letting it live when it gets Matrix'd.
The main use of the ability would still be just to recharge energy on your units either for defense or to be active on the map. However, it provides an alternative function that specifically helps P defend early T pushes, and allows Overcharge to benefit Robo builds not just Oracle/Sentry/HTs.
As for Disruptors not being good enough PvT lategame: if this is true and hitting that ~10 Disruptor count doesn't make Protoss super hard to beat as Terran, then maybe Disruptor supply should revert back to 3, and Tempest supply should be kept at 5. Otherwise, a maxed Protoss army with Tempests may be too good vs other capital ships like BLs or BCs. 25% more Tempests really tips the math.
This is what we need. The game also lacks a defensive matrix, which this reminds me off. If it's a slow recharge it would be better probably, because it would be more of a - my archon drop came home and I need to charge up my archon to go again - kind of deal. Slow energy recharge also better aligns with abilities such as stasis and hallucination.
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United States1934 Posts
On November 21 2024 03:40 luxon wrote:Agreed with wombat, love this patch, really what the community wanted.
Just a heads up, this kind of post is actionable by mods. Try to refrain from a sentence of text and a massive image.
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EPT
