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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Maybe its just this thread did hit on something that isn't common knowledge yet, but should be. As long as you spend MORE GAS ON YOUR MUTAS than T has on Thors (2:1 is a good number to aim for but 1.5:1 will suffice if you have other solid comp in the rest of your army) then you have the ability to shut down his Thors. This is not an end-all-be-all thing though. There is a lot more going on in ZvT than Thors and Mutas, and T still holds all the cards. | ||
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
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Mellois
United States56 Posts
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On August 20 2010 17:23 Jermstuddog wrote:Please stop acting like mutas are OMG OP... I think I've read all the posts here, and there really hasn't been much talk about mutas being OP. They are really strong however. The word overpowered is really really overused when the topic of TvZ comes up. In your post, I'd also like to point out though that you say you had 23 mutas and attacked his thors and marines, then he just killed your bases. Wouldn't it just have been better then to keep threatening his base and keep him in his base while you keep your 4 bases saturated and then steamroll him at either t3 or through sheer numbers? | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On August 20 2010 18:14 Zarahtra wrote: In your post, I'd also like to point out though that you say you had 23 mutas and attacked his thors and marines, then he just killed your bases. Wouldn't it just have been better then to keep threatening his base and keep him in his base while you keep your 4 bases saturated and then steamroll him at either t3 or through sheer numbers? I could post the replay, but it's really nothing special. The short answer is, no. Once a Terran does his 1a, Zerg MUST respond or lose the game immediately. You can afford to lose 1 or 2 expos (this again is a point I messed up on, I attacked before the first expo ever went down) but as soon as he starts taking out tech buildings or at least 1/2 your hatcheries, its GG. I should have done more harass before he ever pushed out maybe, but we were on Blistering Sands, and 3 Thors can cover about 90% of your main+natural. I am a firm believer in the 3 step Muta program: 1) Conserve your Muta count until he pushes out, every Muta lost is one more step towards your main that T will make. 2) Make him spend a shitload of money on Missile Turrets because once you get enough Mutas, you can just 1-shot them anyway. 3) Use proper support and the Move-Stop action to destroy Thors whenever he does move out. (the funny thing about Thors vs Mutas is that Mutas actually stack better than Thors until he has like 10+ (at that point you would have 40+ mutas and can't avoid clumping at all). The fact that he will inevitably have so many things standing shoulder-to-shoulder makes sure that every glaive bounce gets its full moneys worth. I had successfully done all 3 (and thusly couldn't enter his base without losing several mutas in the process), except for having proper unit support while he had some. Yes it infuriates me that he won off 1a, and I did rage as the game was closing, but I didn't have the perfect unit mix to handle him and that's really what cost me the game. | ||
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Redx
Netherlands77 Posts
cheers | ||
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Cibron
Sweden253 Posts
On August 20 2010 17:23 Jermstuddog wrote: Please stop acting like mutas are OMG OP... Lol who said overpowered. And YES it's news for a lot of people obivously. ZvT might still be slightly imba but this doesn't mean bad zerg players have to whine about everything ZvT realated. Mutas are arguably the best units in the game. This thread is interesting. That's it. | ||
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
On August 20 2010 15:34 NeoLearner wrote: Yeah, maybe not 1 unit all-purpose hard counter. Then again, we're not playing WC3  Thor + marine could still work I think. The reason mutas vs thor works is because the spread negates the splash damage. The reason mutas vs marines works is because stacking makes them hard to focus down. So having a thor (or 2) to force the Zerg to "unstack" his mutas and then use your stimmed marines to pick off the weak ones seems like a valid tactics. Micro intensive, and I'm not a terran player though... If you are going 1/1/1, I think medivacs are probably a better idea than vikings. Without siege tank support, thor marine dies to ling baneling muta (infestor). This was seen in Maka Vs Prime. Once the siege tank count was down (and/or out of position), the blings absolutly raped the marines. A totally stupid idea maybe (probably ), but has anybody ever tried to slow push with turrets or bunkers like in BW vs DT's? Just a question, it's probably waaay to immobile and still weak against blings though.My point was Thors are too slow to actually kill mutalisks on defense and Terran has to sit on 2-3 bases and can't really hope to defend it all against a mutalisk ball. If a zerg player gets a big wad of 15+ mutalisks the counter to it is to push on the zerg bases and come make his mutalisks engage your army. Protoss can counter mutas with phoenix but to counter mutalisk effectively as terran you have to attack. Way too often I'm watching a replay and the Terran builds 3-4 Thors and the zerg player shuts down his mutalisk like they stand no chance because he has Thors. | ||
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dcberkeley
Canada844 Posts
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Capnstank
Canada47 Posts
With terran mech once you shut down the thors you have free reign on their army. they're in a full scale forced retreat and thors aren't built very fast. EDIT:: Just wanted to point out from my experiences that if their unit composition is Marine/Tank/Thor/[helion] then you have to be careful. Marines make up for the lack of splash very quickly when you fly all mutas into range. | ||
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Caelestis
United States58 Posts
After initially engaging the group of Thors (through force move)- do you guys get more effect from just hovering over them and straight attacking or flying (microing) while attacking? | ||
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fenster
United States73 Posts
On August 20 2010 23:24 EnderCN wrote: My point was Thors are too slow to actually kill mutalisks on defense and Terran has to sit on 2-3 bases and can't really hope to defend it all against a mutalisk ball. If a zerg player gets a big wad of 15+ mutalisks the counter to it is to push on the zerg bases and come make his mutalisks engage your army. Protoss can counter mutas with phoenix but to counter mutalisk effectively as terran you have to attack.. Aren't Vikings a Terran counter to mutas? I've had several games where my T opponent goes Vikings in response to my mutas (or simply for map control and overlord checking). I was basically forced to go for some sort of hydra/baneling/mutalisk mix that actually worked very well, but it was not as muta heavy as I would have liked. I'm not saying it's a smart T option since if Z does a tech switch any amount of Vikings over 4 or so are rendered worthless, but regardless they do deter mutas. | ||
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theSAiNT
United States726 Posts
On August 21 2010 00:25 fenster wrote: Aren't Vikings a Terran counter to mutas? I've had several games where my T opponent goes Vikings in response to my mutas (or simply for map control and overlord checking). I was basically forced to go for some sort of hydra/baneling/mutalisk mix that actually worked very well, but it was not as muta heavy as I would have liked. I'm not saying it's a smart T option since if Z does a tech switch any amount of Vikings over 4 or so are rendered worthless, but regardless they do deter mutas. Great technique for a struggling Zerg. I've been trying to make mutas work against Terran but I find Thors and marines shut them down too easily. Hopefully this helps against the thors. Vikings don't really counter muta if there is a good number of mutas because of the splash although potentially, Terrans could also magic box spread their vikings to mitigate that. | ||
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Malminos
United States321 Posts
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
On August 21 2010 00:25 fenster wrote: Aren't Vikings a Terran counter to mutas? I've had several games where my T opponent goes Vikings in response to my mutas (or simply for map control and overlord checking). I was basically forced to go for some sort of hydra/baneling/mutalisk mix that actually worked very well, but it was not as muta heavy as I would have liked. I'm not saying it's a smart T option since if Z does a tech switch any amount of Vikings over 4 or so are rendered worthless, but regardless they do deter mutas. No, vikings don't counter mutas at all. That's because he can't make vikings fast enough and in small numbers they are worthless against the much faster and more numeraous mutas. If he invests super heavily in starports and vikings just tech switch to ultras and it's GG | ||
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DeToX
United States1 Post
I pushed my roaches up right under his marines, popped out and brought my Muta's in using this technique. Roaches ate a lot of that marine auto attack damage while my mutas cleaned up the Thors. He was quite surprised, so thanks again! | ||
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s0bek
United States10 Posts
great read, didnt know there was magic box in sc2 (not that i stopped to try it :|) | ||
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Nakmal
United States24 Posts
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Bloodba7h
Canada20 Posts
Thanks, though! I don't wanna poop on the thread. Just wanted to say that this isn't a miracle cure. | ||
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Voyager I
United States260 Posts
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