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Forcing The Metagame

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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ZerG~LegenD
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Sweden1179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-17 17:49:21
February 17 2011 17:46 GMT
#1
Almost one year ago Nony argued that it, at the time, would be counter productive to focus on the metagame. Now I would like to make the opposite claim.

In here I would like to argue that people "playing the metagame" will speed up our journey towards a settled metagame and the discovery of something similar of a nash equilibrium. Furthermore, you would benefit from being one of those players.


Every single SC2 pro out there knows how to defend a 6 Pool, and they did so 3 months ago too. Yet during the last Dreamhack tournament a really cool guy managed to Zergling rush his way into the top 16, knocking out some of the world's best along the way. How could this possible happen?

While I might know how to stop a 6 Pool in general, I don't know how to stop an unscouted 6 Pool with a 15 Nexus. Yet I might use 15 Nexus a lot. Why? Because in general, it tends to be successful.

Another player might find himself in a different environment. He might find himself swarmed in 6 Pools, and thus he chooses a different opening. We both choose our openings based on how we anticipate our opponents to play, which we in turn base on our experience.

Which opening is best? That's a function of the environment, of the metagame.


Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.

In simple terms, using out-of-game information, or resources, to affect one's in-game decisions.

-Wikipedia

Let's say I look up my next opponent's match history and see that he really likes 4 Gating. Now it might not be a good idea to blind counter a 4 Gate, but at least it would be a good idea to choose an opening which is good against a 4 Gate and to scout specifically for that saved up early energy on the Nexus, perhaps even sacrifice an Overlord to see it.

That would be metagaming. But not the kind of metagaming which I'm interested in here. I'm interested in how I generally tend to play against a generally unknown opponent and how I expect him to generally play against me. I'm interested in the hidden assumptions people carry into their game and how to twist them into my favour.

My Metagame
Sometime ago I always got a pretty quick Spire off 2 bases against Terran. This was vital because Banshees and Hellions tended to control the map thus preventing me from taking a third. Since a lot of Terrans played like this, a lot of Zergs responded just like me - they got that Spire. This made Banshee/Hellion play much less useful and thus Terrans moved on.

Nowadays I find myself playing mostly against Bio based attack timed to strike so that they would demolish me if I got those quick Mutalisks, and so I focus on rushing my Creep towards where I intend to take my third base, and on getting Baneling Speed asap. While this kind of Terran delays my Mutalisk harass, it lets me take my third earlier than the old Terran style did.

Perhaps this kind of Terran vs this kind of Zerg is slightly more Terran favored than the old kind of Terran vs the old kind of Zerg, or perhaps it's the other way round, or perhaps there's no difference at all. The interesting thing is the success enjoyed by the first people who switched styles.

Pioneers of new eras are generally vastly successful -for a while- but you don't always have to take a step forward to ride the metagame towards success. Sometimes it works just as well to take a step backwards.

I wonder, what would happen to me if a Terran chose to go back to an do aggressive Banshee build? Against my current build he would even have time to get an expansion up to fake the "normal" play-style and I imagine he would catch me unprepared.

Would it work twice? No. I don't have to go back to Mutalisk rushing to stop this, shuffling some more resources into scouting -perhaps a quick Overseer- would be enough. However, this would weaken my normal build an make his normal build more effective.

Am I saying that Zergs are basing their current playstyle around the assumption that no Terran would go 2 base Banshee against them? No, I'm saying that I am. I don't play TvZ often enough to know if Zergs in general do it and thus I can't tell if the Banshee build would be good, in general.

Their Metagame
While I don't know how Zergs on my level approach ZvT in general, I do know how the Terrans and Protosses approach playing against Zerg - and this I can use in my favor.

Let me give you an example. Some time a go a lot of Protoss players liked moving out around 7:00 to put some heavy, early pressure on me. Now this was quite bothersome to deal with and often put me in a hole from which I couldn't recover - and I thought ZvP was terribly inbalanced.

However, after giving it some thought I realised that the Protosses were only able to do this because they left their own expansions wide open, and so I began making more and earlier Zerglings. If the Protoss had know that I made those Zerglings he would just have sat in his base and I would have ended up wasting a lot of Larva on Zerglings. However, he didn't know what I was doing and Zergs in general wouldn't do this, so he moved out and I netted myself quite a few freewins on counter attacks.

I imagine I wasn't the only doing this since Protosses eventually stopped moving out blindly. This of course made me lose a few games with my Zergling stabs, but as I realised what was happening I could switch back and enjoy my old, normal playstyle with much less off a worry about that 7:00 timing attack. Now I could get Burrow up in time before he would have the means to scout for Zergling patrols and/or secure his natural with Cannons.

The Zergling stab might have been a silly abuse of the metagame involving little real skill, but so was their 7:00 timing attack really. I fought fire with fire and in the end the metagame stabilized somewhat.

In General
Eventually the metagame will probably settle in a Brood War like manner, but it will only do so if we constantly seek holes in our opponents' metagame. Sometimes others will help us do this, but sometimes the hand of fate must be forced, and those who run the forefront of a revolution will always enjoy a lot of cheap success.

I think it would be worth reminding that I'm not advocating out of the norm play just for the sake of it. I'm advocating abusing the assumptions of your typical opponent in your favour. Remember, we all play in different environments and that which puts you ahead in your metagame might put me behind in mine.

If you find a hole in your opponents' metagame, by all means go ahead and abuse it. I'm telling you that both you, your race and the StarCraft community in general will benefit from you abusing it - but don't come here yelling you've found the ultimate solution to the match up.

Furthermore, remember that much of the advice you read on these forums are based on the metagame in the poster's environment. Highly praised advice generally comes from top level players and is based on their metagame, but the metagame in your environment might make their advice counter-productive.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
To be honest, I don't know which tag to put on this, or even if it would be better off in the SC2 forum. Feel free to edit the title, if you have the power to do so.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day
Kraulenth
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada58 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-17 17:58:59
February 17 2011 17:58 GMT
#2
Well stated, and interestingly enough, inspiring, notably, I found it interesting to think about the line you mentioned "how to counter a 6-pool with a 15 nexus". Now, that particular task might be impossible, but for any player not in the highest of Diamond and Masters, I think the idea of knowing HOW to transition out of your favourite/standard openings into a defense or abuse of any given strategy you scout from your opponent is VERY useful.

This is exactly why studying your replays is a vital task -- to spot the holes in your own metagame opponents are abusing and to fix them. I've won many games because someone was doing something that has beat me before, and I've been ecstatic about it, because if I've analyzed my replay I knew EXACTLY how to respond - down to cancelling buildings/cutting workers.

Anyone with any intent on improving their gameplay, or ENJOYING their gameplay should give serious thought to this article and think about what it means to their style of play.
MoreFaSho
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1427 Posts
February 17 2011 17:58 GMT
#3
So here's a question. I've tried prepping for that 7:00 push-out off of a 3-gate expo as well myself and I've tried not prepping for it because it seems so blind. Even on Xel'Naga with a medium distance natural to natural it can be difficult to defend it making units only after the push out.
What do you think the stable response is in this situation or what do you think it might look like?
I always try to shield slam face, just to make sure it doesnt work
Barbiero
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Brazil5259 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-17 18:04:08
February 17 2011 17:59 GMT
#4
That is actually really insightful.

As the game develops, more and more strategies are added to the "arsenal" of the metagame. Early on, all we knew as terrans would be things like reaper rushing, banshee rushing, or MMM, maybe with tanks. Nowadays, we have pure mech styles for every matchup, reaper rushing is still possible(though patches made them uneffective) and banshee rushing is still effective, except that every protoss and zerg can deal with banshee/reaper rushes much easier than they could at that time, because they dealt with it or saw people dealing with it.

Everyone remember's MC's crazy timing push with sentries that totally dominated Jinro and the GSL3? Well, not many people worry about it anymore because they already know how to deal with it - it is still extremly powerful nonetheless, but not that much.

Jinro's mech terran was incredibly strong, who in the world would be able to beat that if MC himself couldnt? We still saw a really good transition into biomech by the "world's best terran" MVP on GSTL, and still Squirtle could deal with that - because he knew about the existance and how to work with it.


As the game develops, more and more strategies will emerge, to a point where old strategies will become suddenly effective again - hell, why would you prepare to a banshee rush when nobody does it anymore? What's the point of walling your base when 6pools are so rare? Why double-wall when baneling bust is something nobody cares about anymore? Who needs sentries to expand, you know your oponent is going double expand anyways, just get some tech! Why would I get colossus on PvP, he can just get Voidrays! That's the kind of things that will happen in the future. And the metagame is something to be used as a weapon as well - heck, there is even a fake-FE build for protoss that simulates a 3-gate robo with hallucination, isn't the metagame already beeing used?
♥ The world needs more hearts! ♥
Sicky
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom121 Posts
February 17 2011 18:05 GMT
#5
Really good read and self questioning. Nice to see the highlighted post as well.
zhengsta
Profile Joined February 2011
United States126 Posts
February 17 2011 18:11 GMT
#6
I've noticed that metagame can be very powerful when I started rushing protoss with 5 marines and 5 scvs on SoW. Against a well informed opponent, this attack wouldn't kill them right away, but it would cause sufficient losses on both sides usually in my favor. At this time the protoss will almost always counter attack shortly after with warpgate tech finishing and I would be forced to make bunkers to defend. Now, most protoss will expect you to have an expansion if you bunker outside your natural without actually seeing the command center. At first I tried expanding right away but would almost always lose to a 1 basing protoss. Then I figured out that I could trick them into thinking I've expanded and instead mass bio units and kill them with stim research. This strategy seems noob and all-in-ish, but it's actually a very well thought out strategy which can win games against the best of opponents.
Ponyo
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1231 Posts
February 17 2011 18:14 GMT
#7
crazy sht lol, never really thought of it that way.
ponyo.848
bobq
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States136 Posts
February 17 2011 18:23 GMT
#8
Very cool post. I think the hardest part of this is probably accurately judging just where the metagame is and what you're likely to see out of opponents, especially for people who aren't playing at the top of the ladder. The pool of potential opponents for someone in mid-diamond is pretty huge, and if you aren't mass-gaming, it can be hard to really have your finger on the pulse of every matchup.

One possible way to deal with this might be http://www.sc2replayed.com/ 's "most popular strategies" section, which parses all of the uploaded replays and tries to in some way determine what "strategies" were used. I'm not sure they pull out enough information to make this a really useful barometer for the metagame (for instance, you don't seem to be able to sort by league), but it definitely seems like something that with a little work could make for some very cool analysis of what you're likely to see in ladder, and as such what your best bet for countering it is.
Kraulenth
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada58 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-17 18:32:31
February 17 2011 18:31 GMT
#9
On February 18 2011 03:23 bobq wrote:

One possible way to deal with this might be http://www.sc2replayed.com/ 's "most popular strategies" section, which parses all of the uploaded replays and tries to in some way determine what "strategies" were used. I'm not sure they pull out enough information to make this a really useful barometer for the metagame (for instance, you don't seem to be able to sort by league), but it definitely seems like something that with a little work could make for some very cool analysis of what you're likely to see in ladder, and as such what your best bet for countering it is.



I'm not sure that works reliably - it shows 14% of Terran 1v1 games over the last 30 days as being a reaper rush -- perhaps it's mis-parsing a reaper scout as a 'rush'? -- but I dunno the "strategies" listed are pretty simple (understandably so since it's just parsing replay files). Better to keep an eye on regular running tournaments - get replays from the weekly tournaments, the opens, etc - watching a few replays and following the strategy forum here will probably lead a player more in the right direction than something as arbitrary as this type of replay parsing (especially since "COMMON" games are probably uploaded less).
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-17 18:36:43
February 17 2011 18:36 GMT
#10
very good read I really enjoyed it. It is true that the meta-game affects your decision and i feel it should be noted that particular skill levels have their own microcosmic metagame. For example, it is possible to observe a reverse beel curve with regards to cheese and all ins between bronze and diamond and probably even masters (though I am admittedly one diamond myself, the masters comment comes from watching master level streams of non semi-pro + players).

In bronze cheese such as the 6 pool is common as it is easy to pull off and wins games. At the same time, individuals who are able to succesfully pull off the cheese consistently will win within their relative skill category and thus move up the ranks. As they move up cheese becomes less viable and we see a drop in the silver gold plat range of such play as these individuals are learning new one base all in openings. At higher platinum to diamond many Terrans for example seem to be playing a 3 rax opening which they very rarely recover from if their push fails to do much damage. Zergs at the higher diamond level where I am have also begun to incorporate the 3RR speedling all in much more often than other strategies. These individuals who are good at accomplising their builds are more able to effectively move up the ranks until they hit a wall where the meta game of their relevant mmr/skill level dictates the weaknesses in their play at a meta game level. The individuals then are more able to effectively hold off one base all ins more often.

EDIT: as a side note I am now a proud dragoon ! I am happy - sorry for the off topic I just found it cool
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
mierin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4943 Posts
February 17 2011 18:41 GMT
#11
The highlighted user thing is really neat ^.^ Great post too.
JD, Stork, Calm, Hyuk Fighting!
mothergoose729
Profile Joined December 2010
United States666 Posts
February 17 2011 18:42 GMT
#12
I think that for the most part people aren't forgetting about six pooling and timing pushes of the past, I think people are getting a lot better and knowing the timings of certain builds and working their game play around the effective ways to survive early pushes without falling of their game plan. As a zerg player myself, I never feel like my build is blatantly vulnerable to some kind of harrass or push that was popular but isn't really popular anymore, instead I have come up with lots of ways of transitioning in the game to various kinds of defenses as need. For instance, I hatch first on every map against protoss and terran in every spawn position. I am often bunker rushes and 4 gated, but I rarely lose to them because I know what to scout for and I am pretty good and defending them. I think with the 3 gate expand economy builds from protoss and two racks, iEchoic builds, ect from terran all the races are starting to figure that kind of stuff out. Good builds that are strong and can counter cheese.
iEchoic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1776 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-17 19:12:04
February 17 2011 19:04 GMT
#13
Here's another example of this sort of metagaming in TvP that most people have forgotten about;

The BratOK build in TvP was wildly popular for a while in beta and shortly after release, popularized partially by Day9. For those who don't know what it is, it's a pure ghost + marine + medivac timing attack. This build crushed gateway-based armies, was flexible to stop starport openings and DTs, and was generally pretty powerful. This made greedy economic builds very risky. However, the BratOK build was weak to one thing, which was a 1-base colossus.

After a while, the BratOK build fell out of favor because of the popularity of 1base colossus (its popularity inspired itself by the build). People sort of forgot about the BratOK build over time.

Now all of a sudden, not having to worry about this build, Protoss players began playing with and standardizing a FE build. Now FEs in PvT are very common, mostly just because BratOK's build basically just was forgotten.

To bring it full-circle, as the OP does, you can easily win games just based on observations of the metagame changing. Sometimes when I know a Protoss player likes to FE I'll just run a BratOK build and pick up what is almost always an easy win.
vileEchoic -- clanvile.com
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-17 19:17:03
February 17 2011 19:08 GMT
#14
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 18 2011 02:46 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
Almost one year ago Nony argued that it, at the time, would be counter productive to focus on the metagame. Now I would like to make the opposite claim.

In here I would like to argue that people "playing the metagame" will speed up our journey towards a settled metagame and the discovery of something similar of a nash equilibrium. Furthermore, you would benefit from being one of those players.


Every single SC2 pro out there knows how to defend a 6 Pool, and they did so 3 months ago too. Yet during the last Dreamhack tournament a really cool guy managed to Zergling rush his way into the top 16, knocking out some of the world's best along the way. How could this possible happen?

While I might know how to stop a 6 Pool in general, I don't know how to stop an unscouted 6 Pool with a 15 Nexus. Yet I might use 15 Nexus a lot. Why? Because in general, it tends to be successful.

Another player might find himself in a different environment. He might find himself swarmed in 6 Pools, and thus he chooses a different opening. We both choose our openings based on how we anticipate our opponents to play, which we in turn base on our experience.

Which opening is best? That's a function of the environment, of the metagame.

Show nested quote +

Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.

In simple terms, using out-of-game information, or resources, to affect one's in-game decisions.

-Wikipedia

Let's say I look up my next opponent's match history and see that he really likes 4 Gating. Now it might not be a good idea to blind counter a 4 Gate, but at least it would be a good idea to choose an opening which is good against a 4 Gate and to scout specifically for that saved up early energy on the Nexus, perhaps even sacrifice an Overlord to see it.

That would be metagaming. But not the kind of metagaming which I'm interested in here. I'm interested in how I generally tend to play against a generally unknown opponent and how I expect him to generally play against me. I'm interested in the hidden assumptions people carry into their game and how to twist them into my favour.

My Metagame
Sometime ago I always got a pretty quick Spire off 2 bases against Terran. This was vital because Banshees and Hellions tended to control the map thus preventing me from taking a third. Since a lot of Terrans played like this, a lot of Zergs responded just like me - they got that Spire. This made Banshee/Hellion play much less useful and thus Terrans moved on.

Nowadays I find myself playing mostly against Bio based attack timed to strike so that they would demolish me if I got those quick Mutalisks, and so I focus on rushing my Creep towards where I intend to take my third base, and on getting Baneling Speed asap. While this kind of Terran delays my Mutalisk harass, it lets me take my third earlier than the old Terran style did.

Perhaps this kind of Terran vs this kind of Zerg is slightly more Terran favored than the old kind of Terran vs the old kind of Zerg, or perhaps it's the other way round, or perhaps there's no difference at all. The interesting thing is the success enjoyed by the first people who switched styles.

Pioneers of new eras are generally vastly successful -for a while- but you don't always have to take a step forward to ride the metagame towards success. Sometimes it works just as well to take a step backwards.

I wonder, what would happen to me if a Terran chose to go back to an do aggressive Banshee build? Against my current build he would even have time to get an expansion up to fake the "normal" play-style and I imagine he would catch me unprepared.

Would it work twice? No. I don't have to go back to Mutalisk rushing to stop this, shuffling some more resources into scouting -perhaps a quick Overseer- would be enough. However, this would weaken my normal build an make his normal build more effective.

Am I saying that Zergs are basing their current playstyle around the assumption that no Terran would go 2 base Banshee against them? No, I'm saying that I am. I don't play TvZ often enough to know if Zergs in general do it and thus I can't tell if the Banshee build would be good, in general.

Their Metagame
While I don't know how Zergs on my level approach ZvT in general, I do know how the Terrans and Protosses approach playing against Zerg - and this I can use in my favor.

Let me give you an example. Some time a go a lot of Protoss players liked moving out around 7:00 to put some heavy, early pressure on me. Now this was quite bothersome to deal with and often put me in a hole from which I couldn't recover - and I thought ZvP was terribly inbalanced.

However, after giving it some thought I realised that the Protosses were only able to do this because they left their own expansions wide open, and so I began making more and earlier Zerglings. If the Protoss had know that I made those Zerglings he would just have sat in his base and I would have ended up wasting a lot of Larva on Zerglings. However, he didn't know what I was doing and Zergs in general wouldn't do this, so he moved out and I netted myself quite a few freewins on counter attacks.

I imagine I wasn't the only doing this since Protosses eventually stopped moving out blindly. This of course made me lose a few games with my Zergling stabs, but as I realised what was happening I could switch back and enjoy my old, normal playstyle with much less off a worry about that 7:00 timing attack. Now I could get Burrow up in time before he would have the means to scout for Zergling patrols and/or secure his natural with Cannons.

The Zergling stab might have been a silly abuse of the metagame involving little real skill, but so was their 7:00 timing attack really. I fought fire with fire and in the end the metagame stabilized somewhat.

In General
Eventually the metagame will probably settle in a Brood War like manner, but it will only do so if we constantly seek holes in our opponents' metagame. Sometimes others will help us do this, but sometimes the hand of fate must be forced, and those who run the forefront of a revolution will always enjoy a lot of cheap success.

I think it would be worth reminding that I'm not advocating out of the norm play just for the sake of it. I'm advocating abusing the assumptions of your typical opponent in your favour. Remember, we all play in different environments and that which puts you ahead in your metagame might put me behind in mine.

If you find a hole in your opponents' metagame, by all means go ahead and abuse it. I'm telling you that both you, your race and the StarCraft community in general will benefit from you abusing it - but don't come here yelling you've found the ultimate solution to the match up.

Furthermore, remember that much of the advice you read on these forums are based on the metagame in the poster's environment. Highly praised advice generally comes from top level players and is based on their metagame, but the metagame in your environment might make their advice counter-productive.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
To be honest, I don't know which tag to put on this, or even if it would be better off in the SC2 forum. Feel free to edit the title, if you have the power to do so.


hmm interesting proposition, it would probably work, but these meta game stages are happening passively as we go anyway

is it only me that sees his post with a blue background, yet nothing in its quote makes mine blue? (or at least the quote)

i just read nonys post, if you find a hole in a very strong current metagame in an old metagame, sure use it, but the other people wont go back to an old metagame because it becomes build order losses
instead of relying on what has been, try to improve on the current metagame or find a new strategy which creates an exploitable hole in it
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
February 17 2011 19:59 GMT
#15
This is a great post. It's something I've thought a lot about, and it's fascinating to see the evolution of each match up, and how some have even come full circle. Some of this change has been driven by patches (e.g., the death of 5rax reaper), but a lot of it is just down to the metagame. For example, ZvT has evolved from a point where 15 hatch was standard, to being an extremely risky opening, and now to a point where hatch first and pool first openings are both quite playable. Similarly, I noticed the period you mentioned in ZvP where openings like 13pool speedling were extremely effective. It wasn't a particularly good opening, but it came at a time when zergs were generally opening hatchery first or with a much later pool, and so most protoss players felt safe opening greedily. The result was an exploitable timing window where protoss had very little defence. As protoss players started denying early hatcheries with cannons and pylon blocks, thereby limiting zerg's options, they were also forced to patch this hole.
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
zhengsta
Profile Joined February 2011
United States126 Posts
February 17 2011 20:34 GMT
#16
Since we're on the topic, Do you guys think tricky plays such as faking an expo and then canceling it would be a viable strategy? One example I can think of is faking a fast natural if the zerg does a 15 hatch then canceling for an all in. This could cause the zerg to possibly go for a fast 3rd which will give you a huge advantage in army size.
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-17 21:06:13
February 17 2011 21:00 GMT
#17
Here's a fun one that I came up with about 2 weeks ago, unfortunately I'm having trouble getting a stable follow-up, it feels very promising though.

ZvT anti-2-rax pressure.

I build 10 drones, then as soon as my overlord is building, I send 2 drones to scout the map.

As soon as possible, I get them both into the Terran's base, typically harassing the SCV that is building his barracks, maybe starting a small worker war, then I proceed to double gas steal him.

2 rax's strength comes on the assumption that Z will get his expo up as soon as possible, since I have forced this build, I instead throw down a spawning pool, gas, and roach warren as soon as possible. Keeping just 16 drones in my main for the time being.

Build 10 Roaches (maybe some other stuff like a few lings & bling nest to give me options), and poke at Ts ramp.

This may sound like an all-in, but having a queen back at home means I can build 7 drones every 30 seconds compared to his 2 or 4 depending on whether or not he has an in-base command center. This should allow me to compete with his MULE income (though I do admittedly give him a huge mineral lead, but that's ok, he has no gas for the time being). All I am doing is utilizing that small army to screw with Terran's expo timing while I secure my own expansion. Sound familiar?

I am still having problems like how to deal with a MM stim-timing all-in, but this build is totally going along the lines of this thread, using commonly accepted ideas like "2 rax is strong" against the person executing the build.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
philipov
Profile Joined October 2010
United States81 Posts
February 17 2011 21:22 GMT
#18
On February 18 2011 06:00 Jermstuddog wrote:
Build 10 Roaches


I'm curious at what time you are able to get 10 roaches with this strategy. How long are you able to hold on to the gas? In other words, how many marauders could he possibly build, supposing he kills your gas steal faster than it takes you to get the 10 roaches?
Any hive cluster that would trade a little economy to gain a little security deserves neither and will lose both
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-17 22:00:22
February 17 2011 21:57 GMT
#19
It's only feasible to have 1 marauder by the time I get to his base.

The problem is that 2 barracks with 2-3 bunkers full of marines behind them can hold off the roaches by themselves.

The BO is pretty simple:

15 double gas steal
13 pool
12 gas
16 queen
18 roach warren
18 overlord
18 overlord
18 overlord
make 10 roaches

This is a shitload of army at that point in the game, but you just can't fit it all up T's ramp if he has a good sim city going on.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
nodule
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada931 Posts
February 17 2011 22:10 GMT
#20
The needs of the many vs. the needs of the few.

Playing the metagame gives you a temporary advantage over other players until the metagame changes. In that sense it's good for racking up wins in the short term (say, in a tourney), and it might be helpful to the community in terms of metagame evolution.

But it doesn't increase your raw skill or make you a more solid player. Until you're at the highest levels, isn't that what you should be focusing on?
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