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[G]TLAF-Liquid`Tyler's Double Forge PvT

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-29 22:32:14
March 29 2011 21:37 GMT
#1
Written by Iamke55 and CecilSunkure


Overview
By utilizing chronoboost it is possible to finish +2 Weapons and +2 Armor early in the game at a time when Terrans can only have +1 Weapons and/or armor. The combination of upgrades and Guardian Shield makes gateway units incredibly durable against the ranged attacks of Terran bio units.

With this build you will open up with a standard 2 or 3 Gate Robo expand followed by two Forges for access to quick upgrades. The strong foundation you have in upgraded Gateway units gives you several options in the mid game.

This build was created by TLAF-Liquid`Tyler, who recently defeated TLAF-Liquid`Jinro with it at PAX East.

Cecil's notes for this build:
+ Show Spoiler +
9 Pylon
13 Gateway
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
Zealot + Assim @ Core Finishes
Chrono Stalker @ Core Finish
Sentry
Robo @ 100 gas
Gateway
3rd gate @ robo finish
Warp in 2-3 sentry
Nexus @ 400 minerals
2 forge @ nex 50%
Nat assims + twilight @ 50% upgrades
Support bay after 2-2
colo + range immediately
Add 2 gateways (might need these earlier if macro is poor)
*Units should constantly be being produced from your gateways with no down-time.
If you cannot do this on your own, add on one or two more gateways
when you money gets high.

Opening Build
You start with a 3 Gate Robo expand.
  • 9 Pylon
  • 13 Gateway
  • 14 Assimilator
  • 16 Pylon
  • @100 Gateway: Cybernetics Core
  • @100 minerals: Zealot
  • @75 minerals: 2nd Assimilator
  • @100% Cybernetics Core: Stalker, Warpgate
  • 25 Pylon
  • 2 Sentries from 1st Gateway
  • 30 Robotics Facility
  • 2nd Gateway, Pylon, 3rd Gateway all when you have enough minerals
  • @100% Robotics Facility: Observer
  • Warp in 2 Sentries once Warpgate research is done
  • 44 Nexus
  • @300 minerals: 2x Forge, make sure to stop boosting probes
  • @100% 2x Forge: +1 Weapons, +1 Armor

You can do a double Forge build off of any fast Robo opening, so I’ll use a 3 Gate Robo in this guide because I already wrote one about 2 Gate Robo and this is TLAF-Liquid`Tyler’s preferred opening. By getting a Zealot before the Cybernetics Core is done and getting a 3rd Gateway, you will be able to expand pretty early without getting an Immortal**. The 2 Forges are made when you would normally tech to Colossus: your observer has enough info for you to know that you won’t die to a 1 base all-in. Incidentally, getting 2x Forge and +1/+1 is actually cheaper than getting a Robotics Bay and 1 Colossus by 200 gas. The disadvantage is that the going double Forge takes about a minute longer to finish 1/1 whereas an early Colossus would come about a minute earlier.

**I advise skipping Immortals entirely; getting more Gateway units is far better against drops, as splitting an army in half when Immortals are being used harms a Protoss army much more than splitting one up into several places if it relies on numerous Gateway units -Immortals need support or large numbers to be effective.

Once you’re almost done with this part of the build, your Observer will usually see an expansion and Bunkers (if not then you may have to abandon the build). This is your cue to take map control with your army and secure watch towers.

Midgame Build
  • Constant Chrono Boosts on upgrades
  • @8-10 gas units, produce exclusively Zealots
  • 70 Twilight Council, expansion Assimilators (upgrades should be at 70%)
  • @100% upgrades: +2 Weapons, +2 Armor
  • 90 Robotics Bay
  • @100% Robotics Bay: Colossus, Extended Thermal Lance
  • 4th and 5th Gateways, can start making stalkers again
  • From here, you need to pretty much never miss a Chrono Boost on Colossus

On 2 bases, the most efficient probe count to income ratio is between 48 and 52. It’s not necessary to create more probes until you are building a 3rd Nexus, at which point you Chrono Boost them and probably get +3/+3 as well to prepare for the late game.

+1/+1 upgrades tend to finish at 10:00. If you can it's best to engage after these finish!

The Robotics Bay can be gotten earlier if you make fewer gas units.

At 14:30, your 3rd Colossus should pop and Extended Thermal Lance is done so this is a good time to attack. From here you either win the game outright as in TLAF-Liquid`Tyler vs TLAF-Liquid`Jinro, or put on enough pressure to get a 3rd base. If you attack any later than this timing, then you should be taking a faster 3rd base and getting charge/blink, and even +3/+3 upgrades if you attack significantly later.

Once you get past mid game, you’re in the same position or better compared to standard play so refer to my PvT guide for late game play, engagement tactics, and defensive positioning.

Variations

You can skip the Robotics Bay and just mass Gateway units while getting charge/blink and +3/+3 upgrades. You add a 2nd Robotics Facility for Colossi once you have 3 bases running. Doing this and adding Immortals is pretty strong against 1/1/1 expand builds.

You can go double Forge from any opening as long as your opponent isn’t doing a 1 base all-in, so 2 Gate Robo, 3 Gate openers, and 1 Gate Nexus can all work.

There is also the option to just do a standard Colossus build and just make two Forges when you would normally make one. It’s slightly less safe than standard Colossus play and this build, but it gives you the strongest army later on for sure. Open up the spoiler on greedy variation in my thread to see how this works. This is the preferred build of WhiteRa and ZeeRax.

Strengths

  • Focusing on early upgrades and delaying your tech sets you up for late game incredibly well.
  • Having really buff Gateway units quickly make warp-ins much stronger against drops.
  • Upgrades are very effective against 1/1/1 expand openings as they often go biomech, which is too diverse a unit composition to match your upgrades.
  • The +2/+2 upgrades finish early enough to do a very strong mid-game push with Thermal Lance, as seen in our VOD of Liquid Tyler.
Weaknesses
  • If a Terran blindly guesses that you’re not going to be aggressive, he can skip Bunkers and possibly take advantage of a lack of aggression on part of the Protoss.
  • The delayed Colossus means you might have trouble holding off Ghost timing attacks where the Terran expands and then makes 5 Barracks. Again though, the Terran has to guess you’re doing this instead of the standard fast Colossus build.
Replays/VODs

TLAF-Liquid`Tyler vs TLAF-Liquid`Jinro - Double Forge vs MM fast expo


  • EGiNcontroL vs Fenix - Double Forge vs 1/1/1 expo into biomech
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
dafnay
Profile Joined May 2010
Angola375 Posts
March 29 2011 21:48 GMT
#2
Using this build for a long time and I have to admit it's very very strong , when i can execute it properly i win easily 75% of my games.

I think one of the weaknesses is that its pretty hard to stop drops since you only have zealots , sentries and some precious stalkers , so youre army isnt very mobile.
CaptainHaz
Profile Joined December 2010
United States240 Posts
March 29 2011 21:52 GMT
#3
Always quality stuff from you sir. This clears up a lot of the timings I was curious about. I assumed the double forge came after adding on the additional gateways. Thanks again, hope you get blue'd. This seems like really stable play vs midgame MM, and can transition well into just about anything involving a ground base army. The ghost pushes seem like an issue that can be overcome if you cut probes appropriately when you spot it to get out additional units.

Bookmarked.

Thanks ♥
All of us warned you of the big white face.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-29 22:31:38
March 29 2011 22:19 GMT
#4
Good strat.
I especially think this is strong on bigger maps with some more space between the expansions. The traditional colossus style can be exploited by good terrans on those maps because multiple drops are really problematic to defend with colossi, you simply can't split up armies with colossi as well as pure gateway armies. Upgraded warpins are also much better of course.
A key thing in this strat is getting blink in time imo as that really is key to be able to stop kiting and drops, which can often make it possible to get a quick third which is the real strength of this strategy imo. Especially as gas #3 and #4 aren't really needed often with this build you can really get that third base quickly to get that mineral economy going well.

I'm really wondering myself if somehow the early robo can't be cut completely from this build. It is quite an expensive building and all it is used for is observers and the potential to create quick immortals/colossi if needed. Most of the time it is just sitting there doing nothing. I wonder if you're going forges anyway if cannons couldn't be just as adequate in case you need to defend various all-ins or banshee cloak harass. A cannon near the nexus can both serve as defense for the expo and provide detection against cloak while a second cannon can be made at the home base if needed in the rare case they go banshee. 2 cannons is still cheaper then a robo for example.
Warp
Profile Joined August 2010
United States166 Posts
March 29 2011 22:26 GMT
#5
I LOVE YOUUUUU!!!!!!

Thank you so much for putting all the effort you did into this guide, I've been wondering about his amazing playstyle for a while now.

Thanks
"nothing supscious going on here" - Camille Cavour aka Chris Loranger aka HuK the beast
SgtSquiglz
Profile Joined December 2010
United States668 Posts
March 29 2011 22:32 GMT
#6
I have been trying to incorporate this build into my play lately....love the double forge. Thank you for putting so much effort into this, I'm sure it will help me a lot.

Much appreciated!!
Take anything I say with a grain of salt.....I suck at this game. Also, Go Blue!
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
March 29 2011 22:48 GMT
#7
My favorite part about this is how strong your Gateway units are when faced against Medivacs. It's as if the upgrades are like this 1.5 tier tech that matches against the healing Medivacs do, allowing you to deal with drops and mid-game bio balls while delaying that big AoE tech (Colossus/Templar), thus being able to take an early third base or mount a very strong 2 base mid-game push with Thermal Lance.
xxklownxx
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada47 Posts
March 29 2011 23:43 GMT
#8
Thanks for mapping the build out!

I've been trying to figure it out myself through vods and just practice games, and i ended up with something similar. This guide however, clears up some timings that make the build run more smoothly, like when to build the forges and when to build the twilight

From what ive seen, this build is incredibly strong, and its interchangeable with other protoss stratagies. The key point i think, is the gaurdian sheild/armor combo, the damage mitigated is so extreme (coupled with charge) and the damage delt is also significant.

I think i will be making this a staple of my PvT, as it is really strong and has few weaknesses.
FliedLice
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany7494 Posts
March 29 2011 23:47 GMT
#9
Have been using "on the fly"-double-forge builds for quite some time now, will give this particular one a try this week for sure
Kevmeister @ Dota2
LesPhoques
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada782 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-29 23:52:57
March 29 2011 23:50 GMT
#10
Why ??? I took so much time researching this build and was only sharing it with friends ... :/
Oh well, thank you

My little variation: Sometimes I skip gateway after robo and get a quicker expansion, depending on what my opponent is doing. Also, lets me get charge and blink a bit faster + adding robotic bay. I would recommend making 2-4 colossi and try to snipe medivacs with blink stalkers while zealots are tanking damage. If you are successful, you will force terran to make medivacs OR vikings. Depending on their choice, you can decide on making colossi + expand or add a stargate with carriers, it will be a good choice
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
March 29 2011 23:52 GMT
#11
On March 30 2011 08:50 LesPhoques wrote:
Why ??? I took so much time researching this build and was only sharing it with friends ... :/
Oh well, thank you

Because we are nicer than you
LesPhoques
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada782 Posts
March 29 2011 23:54 GMT
#12
On March 30 2011 08:52 CecilSunkure wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2011 08:50 LesPhoques wrote:
Why ??? I took so much time researching this build and was only sharing it with friends ... :/
Oh well, thank you

Because we are nicer than you


You are indeed
Next time I will definitely share
Gecko
Profile Joined August 2010
United States519 Posts
March 29 2011 23:55 GMT
#13
Thanks for the guide , i really like how this build works i should try it when i start laddering in season 2.

Maybe you should put your guides on liquipedia. Some really standard stuff like 2gate observer expanding is not even on there.
lim1017
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1278 Posts
March 29 2011 23:59 GMT
#14
As much as I love tyer he did not create the double forge build. He may have popularized it or perfected it, but the first time I saw double forge was in gsl. IT was hong un prime playing vs a terran (I forget the nane). On stog incontrol and tyler were discussing it still unsure how viable it was
ccJroy
Profile Joined April 2010
United States483 Posts
March 29 2011 23:59 GMT
#15
yay you finally posted this guide!! Love you Ke!!! When we gonna see you at some local tournaments in the future?

Nice guide!
Lol Rly?
BoondockVeritas
Profile Joined August 2010
United States191 Posts
March 30 2011 00:40 GMT
#16
someone get this in the liquipedia page plz i've been messing with stuff like this, but having a more direct list of how tyler is doing it is nice and would help people who haven't tried it before.
NA server Veritas.414, KR server Bullet.382. 지지요!
deerpark87
Profile Joined January 2011
760 Posts
March 30 2011 00:44 GMT
#17
Pretty sure hong un prime used this built first on GSL and not tyler.
Foooky
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia205 Posts
March 30 2011 01:17 GMT
#18
On March 30 2011 09:44 deerpark87 wrote:
Pretty sure hong un prime used this built first on GSL and not tyler.


Yes but one might claim that the title of this thread refers to tylers version of the double forge build which perhaps is refined past the concept of double forge exhibited by hongun in GSL
SaJa
Profile Joined November 2010
France84 Posts
March 30 2011 01:33 GMT
#19
This is I was looking for, ty
Retgery
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1229 Posts
March 30 2011 01:40 GMT
#20
How well does it work, if you do the 2 forges after a kcdc FE?
Fall down 7 times, stand up 8.
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