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On April 10 2011 12:53 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 12:50 Perplex wrote:On April 05 2011 02:09 CecilSunkure wrote:On April 04 2011 16:44 noelsusman wrote:
A few notes since I've been studying this build a lot recently.
Stuff like 70 Twilight Council and 90 Support Bay is pretty useless. Twilight comes at 50-70% 1/1 completion (like you said). Support Bay comes as soon as you have the gas for it after you start 2/2 Looks to me like my notes in the OP are more accurate; Tyler doesn't put the support down when he can afford it, he gets it right after 2-2 finished. He gets thermal lance and a clossus immediately as the support bay finishes, however. I imagine he just needed some more stalkers in his army at that specific time instead of a quicker support bay. A common mistake people have in copying build orders is to just get everything too quickly. Often times there are key delays where you just spend your money on probes, pylons, and your army. I think your notes are missing a cybernetics core though >< Oya, sorry about that. That part is so obvious to me I didn't actually write it or the beginning part of my notes for myself; I added that on to post here. Make a core @100% Gateway ^_^
Haha I figured as much. I've been practicing your notes version of the build for an hour or two now and i have it down pretty much perfectly vs AI so I'm gonna ladder :D
cheers!
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the important thing is that you upgrade your armor.. the atk isn't nearly as important.. i seen videos of them european protosses like nani/hasu getting 1/3 and their army wrecks stuff
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didnt tyler get a sentry right after the zealots now, not a stalker
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On April 10 2011 13:00 SlapMySalami wrote:
the important thing is that you upgrade your armor.. the atk isn't nearly as important.. i seen videos of them european protosses like nani/hasu getting 1/3 and their army wrecks stuff
Unless you plan to use Colossi.
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Am I correct in the belief that pretty much any bio push that hits before your Colossi start to come out depends on you landing good forcefields?
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On April 10 2011 14:35 kzn wrote:
Am I correct in the belief that pretty much any bio push that hits before your Colossi start to come out depends on you landing good forcefields?
No, that's only if you're relying on sentries. If you have good upgrades and a lot of units, you don't need force fields: i.e. AdelScott vs IMMVP.
However, you have to transition into some sort of area of effect unit once the Terran gets a large enough of a bio force, as a large ball of ranged units with healing capabilities (medivac) gets too hard for a mixture of ranged/melee units to crack. One way to mitigate this is to be actively trading armies with the Terran, while keeping your Stalkers alive (easily done if you have blink). Charge and blink + upgrades is a great and economy friendly way of delaying your AoE tech, though it is harder to pull off than simply building and a-moving colossi around.
Think of it this way: Charge, Blink, Upgrades, all three of these set you up for the late game by allowing lower-tier tech units to compete with higher-tier tech units. However, if you go straight to Colossus you use a higher-tier tech unit to combat the higher-tier tech of Ghosts and Medivacs, but you don't really have a good time to get in those upgrades early since Colossi take so many resources to make.
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On April 10 2011 14:45 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 14:35 kzn wrote:
Am I correct in the belief that pretty much any bio push that hits before your Colossi start to come out depends on you landing good forcefields?
No, that's only if you're relying on sentries. If you have good upgrades and a lot of units, you don't need force fields: i.e. AdelScott vs IMMVP. However, you have to transition into some sort of area of effect unit once the Terran gets a large enough of a bio force, as a large ball of ranged units with healing capabilities (medivac) gets too hard for a mixture of ranged/melee units to crack. One way to mitigate this is to be actively trading armies with the Terran, while keeping your Stalkers alive (easily done if you have blink). Charge and blink + upgrades is a great and economy friendly way of delaying your AoE tech, though it is harder to pull off than simply building and a-moving colossi around. Think of it this way: Charge, Blink, Upgrades, all three of these set you up for the late game by allowing lower-tier tech units to compete with higher-tier tech units. However, if you go straight to Colossus you use a higher-tier tech unit to combat the higher-tier tech of Ghosts and Medivacs, but you don't really have a good time to get in those upgrades early since Colossi take so many resources to make.
I'm curious about effectively trading armies this way. I'm trying to be a bit less dependent on colossus so they aren't showing up in 90%+ of my matches. I am under the impression that against bio with a strictly gateway army, sentries are quite important. I usually find it difficult to run the sentries away and keep them alive. It often means that I need to withdraw earlier and sacrifice zealots while my stalkers and sentries retreat. Is there as large a need for sentries in the mid game if one is aiming to get all these upgrades? I'd imagine with charge, forcefields aren't as required to stop kiting, but it's still not as effective and blinking away is not much of an option if I'm babysitting sentries.
Do you suggest leaving out sentries once the upgrades kick in a bit more and templar/colossus aren't out yet? Or should one be more committed to babysitting the sentries.
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On April 10 2011 15:06 To3-Knee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 14:45 CecilSunkure wrote:On April 10 2011 14:35 kzn wrote:
Am I correct in the belief that pretty much any bio push that hits before your Colossi start to come out depends on you landing good forcefields?
No, that's only if you're relying on sentries. If you have good upgrades and a lot of units, you don't need force fields: i.e. AdelScott vs IMMVP. However, you have to transition into some sort of area of effect unit once the Terran gets a large enough of a bio force, as a large ball of ranged units with healing capabilities (medivac) gets too hard for a mixture of ranged/melee units to crack. One way to mitigate this is to be actively trading armies with the Terran, while keeping your Stalkers alive (easily done if you have blink). Charge and blink + upgrades is a great and economy friendly way of delaying your AoE tech, though it is harder to pull off than simply building and a-moving colossi around. Think of it this way: Charge, Blink, Upgrades, all three of these set you up for the late game by allowing lower-tier tech units to compete with higher-tier tech units. However, if you go straight to Colossus you use a higher-tier tech unit to combat the higher-tier tech of Ghosts and Medivacs, but you don't really have a good time to get in those upgrades early since Colossi take so many resources to make. I'm curious about effectively trading armies this way. I'm trying to be a bit less dependent on colossus so they aren't showing up in 90%+ of my matches. I am under the impression that against bio with a strictly gateway army, sentries are quite important. I usually find it difficult to run the sentries away and keep them alive. It often means that I need to withdraw earlier and sacrifice zealots while my stalkers and sentries retreat. Is there as large a need for sentries in the mid game if one is aiming to get all these upgrades? I'd imagine with charge, forcefields aren't as required to stop kiting, but it's still not as effective and blinking away is not much of an option if I'm babysitting sentries. Do you suggest leaving out sentries once the upgrades kick in a bit more and templar/colossus aren't out yet? Or should one be more committed to babysitting the sentries.
You only need the sentries if you're going for a big 6 gate bust of perhaps early colo (FF good for preventing bio from running up and/or around and sniping them). So really if you're going heavy bio you should have very religiously chronoboosted armor, and optionally attack as well. You only want 1-2 sentries at a time for the sole purpose of guardian shield.
And charge isn't very important. You should be getting blink very fast, as your twilight finishes (which should be placed at 50% completion of first round of upgrades). You need blink to keep your stalkers alive.
You're questions would be answered much better if you go watch AdelScott vs IMMVP on youtube from TSL 3.
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On April 10 2011 14:45 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 14:35 kzn wrote:
Am I correct in the belief that pretty much any bio push that hits before your Colossi start to come out depends on you landing good forcefields?
No, that's only if you're relying on sentries. If you have good upgrades and a lot of units, you don't need force fields: i.e. AdelScott vs IMMVP.However, you have to transition into some sort of area of effect unit once the Terran gets a large enough of a bio force, as a large ball of ranged units with healing capabilities (medivac) gets too hard for a mixture of ranged/melee units to crack. One way to mitigate this is to be actively trading armies with the Terran, while keeping your Stalkers alive (easily done if you have blink). Charge and blink + upgrades is a great and economy friendly way of delaying your AoE tech, though it is harder to pull off than simply building and a-moving colossi around. Think of it this way: Charge, Blink, Upgrades, all three of these set you up for the late game by allowing lower-tier tech units to compete with higher-tier tech units. However, if you go straight to Colossus you use a higher-tier tech unit to combat the higher-tier tech of Ghosts and Medivacs, but you don't really have a good time to get in those upgrades early since Colossi take so many resources to make.
Going Nexus first for AdelScott and getting away with it really changed that game though, if you could get away with it then sure you might have the units to defend without Forcefield, but if you go regular 3gate expand or 1gate, I doubt you could ever hold off a mid game timing without good use of forcefields.
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Watching AdelScott vs IMMVP, it seems that AdelScott doesn't forgo sentries. He did have something like 5 sentries at the first push. Looks like once the upgrades kick in, 1-2 sentries are sufficient.
BTW, thanks CecilSunkure.
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Thanks for this, I really like this build, feels solid and makes me feel like Im doing something useful 
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Is it possible to get more replays added?
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On April 10 2011 15:44 To3-Knee wrote:
Watching AdelScott vs IMMVP, it seems that AdelScott doesn't forgo sentries. He did have something like 5 sentries at the first push. Looks like once the upgrades kick in, 1-2 sentries are sufficient.
BTW, thanks CecilSunkure.
More like once charge/blink kicks in, 1-2 sentries are sufficient. Think about it this way: without charge/blink, there's no way you can prevent getting kited infinitely. But once you have charge/blink, the chargelots will charge onto the ball, forcing the terran to start moving immediately. Then you can blink afterwards, making full use of all your stalker-dps.
It changes once you add colossi, you want to trap a good amount of bio to make use of the splash. But with chargelots/blink-stalkers, forcefields are more likely go work against you.
Adel vs MVP is indeed the perfect example as to how to structure your army-composition according to the flow of the game. This made even the sometimes bad macro obsolete.
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I just saw whitera doing double forge too in dreamhack but he gets it after he's set on 2 bases quite a while but a bit before 3rd base.
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Thanks alot Cecil! I personally find this build excellent and it's become my new "standard" build vs terran. Your gateway units feel absolutely baller and i've yet to lose a game when the build played out how it should. Tyty
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I'm sorry if I didn't see it, but I would like to know when are the chrono boost times before the forges finish.
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Watching the incontrol replay he doesn't seem to follow this too closely, what is the timing on the forge? He got it around 24 or so, real early.
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how do people feel about skipping colossi in favor of twilight council upgs? make the 5 gates faster instead of the thermal lance / colossi / robo bay.... the opportunity cost being, for the first colossus, 5 zealots and 6 sentries.. you could have nearly twice the army size going 5 gate first
then get the robo bay after. the timing is a little bit more favorable / flexible to a variety of terran timings, like a hypothetical expansion in response to low aggressionm etc.
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On April 11 2011 20:20 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 15:44 To3-Knee wrote:
Watching AdelScott vs IMMVP, it seems that AdelScott doesn't forgo sentries. He did have something like 5 sentries at the first push. Looks like once the upgrades kick in, 1-2 sentries are sufficient.
BTW, thanks CecilSunkure. More like once charge/blink kicks in, 1-2 sentries are sufficient. Think about it this way: without charge/blink, there's no way you can prevent getting kited infinitely. But once you have charge/blink, the chargelots will charge onto the ball, forcing the terran to start moving immediately. Then you can blink afterwards, making full use of all your stalker-dps. It changes once you add colossi, you want to trap a good amount of bio to make use of the splash. But with chargelots/blink-stalkers, forcefields are more likely go work against you. Adel vs MVP is indeed the perfect example as to how to structure your army-composition according to the flow of the game. This made even the sometimes bad macro obsolete.
Exactly! Once you have the twilight council upgrades to deal with kiting, you don't need as many force fields any more. This is also the reason why templar transitions tend to coincide with these upgrades; fewer sentries means you free up gas for templars.
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Sounds like an awesome build to try!
Can I just clarify some things about the flow of the build?
- Do you research +2/+2 upgrades, blink AND charge AND get 3 Colossus all off 2 bases? I might be reading this wrong but it sounds like heaps to afford on 2 bases.
- The build order mentions a 5th gateway in the OP. Is the 5th gateway just to fill in the 'resource gap' because the normal 2 base can support 4 gateways and 1 robo building colossus continually.
Very excited to try this out though, thanks OP!
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EPT
