EPT[G]TLAF-Liquid`Tyler's Double Forge PvT - Page 6
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Techno
1900 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On April 28 2011 14:22 Techno wrote: How can I know theres 2 forges without actually scanning them? They are going to go down pretty early and the Toss will be both very defensive and cautious, as they can't afford to trounce around the map until at least 1/1 is done. The cost of the forges, upgrades, and the Twilight cut into unit count pretty hard, so there will also be not so many units as usual. Also, there shouldn't be much of any sign the Toss is going to take a third until 2/2 is done. You can also know there are two forge once 1/1 is finished super early by clicking on an enemy unit. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On April 28 2011 14:27 CecilSunkure wrote: The cost of the forges, upgrades, and the Twilight cut into unit count pretty hard, so there will also be not so many units as usual. Also, there shouldn't be much of any sign the Toss is going to take a third until 2/2 is done. Hmm...I'm not sure if I agree with you on that. Imo everything depends on whether or not the toss plays with a robo. People have started to figure out possible cloak timings better and better, which means they either add the robo very late "just-in-case" or just...well....not at all. Especially Adel forgoes the robo completely on a regular basis, though I won't recommend copying him on this since he ALSO does it blindly now and then. Nevertheless with a 3 gate aggressive expand it's normally possible to delay the robo up to a point where you'll know if you need it at all. I'm even playing more and more with a very late 2nd gas and take only one sentry for shield...trading some zealots for scv-mining time when they repair bunkers. Without a robo and without an observer (including less minerals spent on assimilators and more probes mining minerals early) the double forge doesn't cut "that" heavily into unit count. If you say twilight council then I say robo bay + thermal lance. Meaning, if the toss goes for colossi he will spend approximately the same amount of ressources for colossus tech as a double forge player spends for TC + further tech. Depending on the playstyle of the terran I found that I can take my third even earlier than when "waiting" for the colossi, since units can be split up more easily to defend against drops. This early heavy expo style has recently been done by Alicia, who even forgoes the early attack upgrades completely to get more armor-upgraded units (chargelots in particular) out. Ok, this has become a way too long response....all that I originally wanted to say is, that a double forge player (or single forge fast armor upgraded chargelots) is actually very hard to scout if the toss cuts the robotics tech completely until the third is up. Imo this is the crucial point, building a reaper is essential if the scan doesn't see anything. The terran should be able to find at least either the robo or the forge(s). | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On April 28 2011 18:10 sleepingdog wrote: Ok, this has become a way too long response....all that I originally wanted to say is, that a double forge player (or single forge fast armor upgraded chargelots) is actually very hard to scout if the toss cuts the robotics tech completely until the third is up. Imo this is the crucial point, building a reaper is essential if the scan doesn't see anything. The terran should be able to find at least either the robo or the forge(s). Yeah I agree with that, but I thought we were assuming a robo was going down because the OP is copying Tyler, which placed a robo. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On April 29 2011 02:45 CecilSunkure wrote: Yeah I agree with that, but I thought we were assuming a robo was going down because the OP is copying Tyler, which placed a robo. You are right, indeed I was talking more about a double forge play "in general". Tyler's style actually is super defensive due to the vast amount of ressources that go into tech that early. Nevertheless (I think I don't spoiler anyone at this point anymore) as we could see in TSL it's "too safe" and I haven't seen anyone using this exact BO for a pretty long time. Nowadays good terrans take advantage of the protoss behind on economy AND being unable to pressure (which would be the case with a straight 3 gate). Going double forge heavy aggression with +1/1, or going into early third with +0/1 - both while teching charge and +2 armor - seems to be the better way to go. On big maps though everything changes again with one gate FE being perfectly safe. However, everybody seems to just be figuring out how to transition into forge play properly after a one gate FE, the large maps are simply way too "new" to make any final comments on the best way to go there I suppose. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On April 28 2011 14:27 CecilSunkure wrote: They are going to go down pretty early and the Toss will be both very defensive and cautious, as they can't afford to trounce around the map until at least 1/1 is done. The cost of the forges, upgrades, and the Twilight cut into unit count pretty hard, so there will also be not so many units as usual. Also, there shouldn't be much of any sign the Toss is going to take a third until 2/2 is done. You can also know there are two forge once 1/1 is finished super early by clicking on an enemy unit. During the period between putting down my 3rd gate/expanding, and then putting down the Twilight Council, i find that i never have enough resources to fully support producing gateway units (mainly zealots). Is anyone else finding this problem being strapped for cash during this period? | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On May 02 2011 11:08 bankai wrote: During the period between putting down my 3rd gate/expanding, and then putting down the Twilight Council, i find that i never have enough resources to fully support producing gateway units (mainly zealots). Is anyone else finding this problem being strapped for cash during this period? Any thoughts TL??  | ||
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Aui_2000
Canada435 Posts
Take a later 4th gas. With double forge gateway style you really don't need as much gas as normal. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On May 02 2011 15:49 Validity wrote: Take a later 4th gas. With double forge gateway style you really don't need as much gas as normal. Thanks!! I probably should have asked this first actually - am I supposed to be constantly producing Gateway units while expanding and getting the forge upgrades and colossus tech? I looked at the egincontrol vs fenix replay and noticed incontrol didnt really produce gateway units continuously?? Or did I see wrong? | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On May 02 2011 15:52 bankai wrote: Thanks!! I probably should have asked this first actually - am I supposed to be constantly producing Gateway units while expanding and getting the forge upgrades and colossus tech? I looked at the egincontrol vs fenix replay and noticed incontrol didnt really produce gateway units continuously?? Or did I see wrong? Help??  | ||
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acgFork
Canada397 Posts
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
On August 25 2011 06:58 acgFork wrote: is this build still good? Build still works, but there are better units compositions. The recent variation of this is to get +2 armor and go zealot archon. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 25 2011 06:58 acgFork wrote: is this build still good? Not sure myself, but if you happened to read a few posts up... On April 29 2011 18:01 sleepingdog wrote: You are right, indeed I was talking more about a double forge play "in general". Tyler's style actually is super defensive due to the vast amount of ressources that go into tech that early. Nevertheless (I think I don't spoiler anyone at this point anymore) as we could see in TSL it's "too safe" and I haven't seen anyone using this exact BO for a pretty long time. Nowadays good terrans take advantage of the protoss behind on economy AND being unable to pressure (which would be the case with a straight 3 gate). Going double forge heavy aggression with +1/1, or going into early third with +0/1 - both while teching charge and +2 armor - seems to be the better way to go. On big maps though everything changes again with one gate FE being perfectly safe. However, everybody seems to just be figuring out how to transition into forge play properly after a one gate FE, the large maps are simply way too "new" to make any final comments on the best way to go there I suppose. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
On August 25 2011 06:58 acgFork wrote: is this build still good? Since the discovery of ghosts and upgrades for Terran, as well as the 1 rax expand being standard, I dpnt think this build is viable anymore. I think it will also lose to the 1-1-1 (3 gate robo opener in general, ovi no one is gonna place 2 forges when seeing 1 base Terran). | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
On August 25 2011 07:04 Micket wrote: Since the discovery of ghosts and upgrades for Terran, as well as the 1 rax expand being standard, I dpnt think this build is viable anymore. I think it will also lose to the 1-1-1 (3 gate robo opener in general, ovi no one is gonna place 2 forges when seeing 1 base Terran). 2G robo >>>>>>> 1-1-1 Robo Build Order: Observer, immortal, Warp Prism, Immortals >>>>> Can add 3rd gate to 'go all-in' Poke his front with stalker + immortal +1 sentry with observer. Observer goes home before 7:30. leave 1 or 2 stalkers at home. I leave 1, and buy time for warp ins to kill banshee. Keep poking - wait for warp prism, immortal micro. You can reactively do this on non-large maps, with observer first from Robo. If he uses banshee's for defense, you should not try to totally kill him, just keep applying pressure till siege mode. He has nothing to kill your warp prism (WP is faster than marines). So basically, you can open 2Gate Robo, and if you scout 1-1-1, you can 1 base him back. If he's going macro mode, you can go into tyler's 2x forge. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 25 2011 07:27 Trusty wrote: 2G robo >>>>>>> 1-1-1 Robo Build Order: Observer, immortal, Warp Prism, Immortals >>>>> Can add 3rd gate to 'go all-in' Poke his front with stalker + immortal +1 sentry with observer. Observer goes home before 7:30. leave 1 or 2 stalkers at home. I leave 1, and buy time for warp ins to kill banshee. Keep poking - wait for warp prism, immortal micro. You can reactively do this on non-large maps, with observer first from Robo. If he uses banshee's for defense, you should not try to totally kill him, just keep applying pressure till siege mode. He has nothing to kill your warp prism (WP is faster than marines). So basically, you can open 2Gate Robo, and if you scout 1-1-1, you can 1 base him back. If he's going macro mode, you can go into tyler's 2x forge. This thread isn't even remotely related to 2gate robo vs 1-1-1.... | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
On August 25 2011 10:12 FabledIntegral wrote: This thread isn't even remotely related to 2gate robo vs 1-1-1.... Read what I quoted bro. 2Gate robo is a great opening to get to double forge mid game. Someone said 2/3gate robo dies to 1-1-1, so it's not great for getting to double forge mid game. I told him how it can deal with 1-1-1, if you open 2gate robo with the intention of getting to double forge mid game. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 25 2011 10:52 Trusty wrote: Read what I quoted bro. 2Gate robo is a great opening to get to double forge mid game. Someone said 2/3gate robo dies to 1-1-1, so it's not great for getting to double forge mid game. I told him how it can deal with 1-1-1, if you open 2gate robo with the intention of getting to double forge mid game. I completely read what you quoted. It doesn't mean it's relevant to the topic at hand. | ||
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entaro1688
Malaysia9 Posts
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