EPT[G]TLAF-Liquid`Tyler's Double Forge PvT - Page 4
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DoubleZee
Canada556 Posts
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On March 31 2011 02:07 CecilSunkure wrote: It's going to take some practice to get used to this. I also struggle with the same thing, but feel that the build actually sets you up for better drop defense than without upgrades. Just be sure to engage around chokes and play pretty defensive until 2-2 is finished (unless you deviate from the plan detailed in the OP somehow). Forge builds are actually designed to be better against drop play because you generally have higher gateway count and better upgrades on gateway units, allowing you to warp in decent drop resistance easily. | ||
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Mithriel
Netherlands2969 Posts
I do love this build though, been practising it a bit more vs AI, and getting the hang of it. In the live game i made to many gas units so i couldnt afford fast upgrades or constant Colossi upgrade. (besides the fact of getting supply blocked etc etc). Insane thanks again for this tactic, i also like your other guides, keep it up!! <3 | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On April 01 2011 04:12 Mithriel wrote: Ok so i just tried it, but it was an absolute abonimation of a try. I messed up everything i possibly could, but thankfully still won haha (just gold league, but still). I do love this build though, been practising it a bit more vs AI, and getting the hang of it. In the live game i made to many gas units so i couldnt afford fast upgrades or constant Colossi upgrade. (besides the fact of getting supply blocked etc etc). Insane thanks again for this tactic, i also like your other guides, keep it up!! <3 If you know what you did wrong, run another practice session and solve those problems. Supply blocked? Play again without getting supply blocked. Couldn't afford an upgrade? Next time purchase a zealot intead of a sentry. Stopped producing probes early? Restart and have constant probes. Forgot to warp units in for 15 seconds? Load up the game and try again, without making that mistake. Once you can do the build without messing simple things up, then go run it on ladder. If you do this you'll be playing at a Master's level of play. You're currently in gold league because of the mistakes you know about and can fix  | ||
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Mithriel
Netherlands2969 Posts
On April 01 2011 04:16 CecilSunkure wrote: If you know what you did wrong, run another practice session and solve those problems. Supply blocked? Play again without getting supply blocked. Couldn't afford an upgrade? Next time purchase a zealot intead of a sentry. Stopped producing probes early? Restart and have constant probes. Forgot to warp units in for 15 seconds? Load up the game and try again, without making that mistake. Once you can do the build without messing simple things up, then go run it on ladder. If you do this you'll be playing at a Master's level of play. You're currently in gold league because of the mistakes you know about and can fix Thanks for the tips! I know i still make a lot of mistakes, but so many because i am "nervous", i try it vs AI and it goes fine, i play on live see a scouting SCV and i freak out  Though i already notice the more games i play, the more calm and "used" i get to the feeling. So for me its indeed practice makes perfect and games games games (while analyzing my loses of course). My aim is masters idd! | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On March 30 2011 21:24 Lochat wrote: The real bonus to double forge is that timing where you get +1/+1 and Terran has +0/+0, otherwise a proper double engineering bay counter to double forge means the Terran is ahead at all times, since. Just wanted to comment on that, haven't had much time to post recently: The thing is, if terran does this then: a) they will be behind in upgrades because they don't have chrono-boost b) they have to sacrifice "something" else which is a GOOD thing. Because it means that the double forge drags the game into the 3 base-stage when terrans can't get the number of MM or medivacs they'd usually like to have at a certain point in time. The number one reason why I've always liked this build is, that it's designed to get you into lategame (unless terran suicides himself with a pure mm force vs 1/1 mass gateway units). Going fast colossi has always been playing on razor's edge for me....attack too early: die to pure marauder. Attack too late: die to an already large viking-count. 0/0 colossi have a quite small window where they work, you really need to finish the game or transition into something else (be it templars, phoenixes or upgrades). | ||
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AirbladeOrange
United States2571 Posts
On March 31 2011 22:07 Markwerf wrote: Rewatching the game of TT1 vs Nada I realized he did a very similar style to this except he gets just 1 forge first to start armor. This might be a good move actually as you can get that forge a little quicker starting your armor upgrade faster and you can also elect to stay on 1 forge in case your opponent is very aggresive. Some timing attacks that hit just before your upgrades finish can be hard to stop which makes sense as upgrades practically do nothing if the units that benefit from them died before the upgrade finishes. If you instead start attack and armor upgrades at different times you won't have such a weak point in your early game, you're armor up will be done earlier and your attack up a bit later. With chronoboost Protoss even has a natural way to correct differences in timings later so you could still do a +2+2 timing attack with both upgrades finishing at the same time, even though you might have started attack a bit later. TT1 also opted to not go robo at all early on and just defended against cloak banshee's with some cannons, which is a very interesting decision, cutting the robo could make this build an ideal followup to 1 or 3 gate FE's which provide a much smoother transition imo. Paying 200m 100g for a building that only makes 1 or 2 obs for the first 10-12 mins of the game seems a bit silly, especially as cannons could provide the same detection. Perhaps use hallucination or a stargate opener instead for scouting? You only really need to know if they go cloak banshee's or some other rare build like thor pushing. At the moment I most use this build with robo still because I dislike the lack of scouting pure warpgate play has. However I find immortals pretty good in combination with this tactic actually as they benefit really well from upgrades, more so then stalkers. Their lack of mobility can be a hassle obviously but early on you rely on forcefield cages to stop kiting anyway. Immortals with +1 attack will 2 shot a stimmed marauder and +1 armor benefits them more then stalkers as well. I didn't watch that game but it sounds like the build I have been trying out that I mentioned before. I really want to know how viable it is. I don't like going for such an early robo against bio if I know I will only use it for one observer for a long time. I don't mean to derail the thread and hopefully can add more discussion of the general build. Here is how it stands as I have it now. + Show Spoiler + Against bio 9 pylon 13 gate 14 assim 16 pylon 17/18 core -> warpgate (chrono x2)->hallucination (chrono x?) 22 pylon 30 nexus - chrono on nexus x3 - zealot->stalker (chrono)->sentry->stalker ----- -temporary probe cut at 33 33 2nd assim 33 pylon 33 2nd gate 33 3rd gate - resume probe producation - replace one of the gateways with a forge if cloaked banshees and add one cannon at each mineral line 2 forges when expo is up (constant chrono) ----- twilight council @ 50% +1/+1 +2/+2 and charge @ 100% +1/+1 4th and 5th gates - go for 4 stalkers, 2 sentries, and the rest zealots before starting +2/+2 and charge - add a few more stalkers and sentries as gas allows after upgrading +2/+2 and charge ----- -attack when +2/+2 and charge are 100% (around 132 supply if no major unit losses occurred) (before the 13:00 game time mark if the build went smooth) -as attacking, nexus->tempalr archives, robo facility, or stargate (maybe 2 robos or 2 stargates) - add 2 more gates - add more assims - start +3/+3 ----- Notes - get as much info with first zealot and stalker as possible to determine the opponent's build/composition - chrono out early units if necessary to defend early pressure - possible cannon use if needed against a dangerous rush or maybe an all-in - hallucinate a phoenix and have it scout before 7:00 to make up for no observers - later use hallucinate to pretend you are going a tech you are not and poke at the enemy - only get 2 assims until 3 bases Concerns - staying alive against early pressure with one gate (forcing cannons) - proxy unscouted starport for cloaked banshees - unscouted cloaked ghosts | ||
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Turnus
United States86 Posts
On April 01 2011 04:16 CecilSunkure wrote: If you know what you did wrong, run another practice session and solve those problems. Supply blocked? Play again without getting supply blocked. Couldn't afford an upgrade? Next time purchase a zealot intead of a sentry. Stopped producing probes early? Restart and have constant probes. Forgot to warp units in for 15 seconds? Load up the game and try again, without making that mistake. Once you can do the build without messing simple things up, then go run it on ladder. If you do this you'll be playing at a Master's level of play. You're currently in gold league because of the mistakes you know about and can fix Cecil, this is by far the best advice I've seen in the strategy forums in a long time. This technique of running through a build over and over in a custom against computer until you don't have a misstep single handedly will get people into top diamond at the least. Thank you for reaffirming my approach to improvement. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On April 01 2011 06:00 Turnus wrote: Cecil, this is by far the best advice I've seen in the strategy forums in a long time. This technique of running through a build over and over in a custom against computer until you don't have a misstep single handedly will get people into top diamond at the least. Thank you for reaffirming my approach to improvement. You can save time by using YABOT instead of playing against the computer. Just type -r whenever you need to start over again. Once you have the build order down, you will improve dramatically because you'll free up your brain to do other things than think about when to make buildings. | ||
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Turnus
United States86 Posts
On April 01 2011 06:11 iamke55 wrote: You can save time by using YABOT instead of playing against the computer. Just type -r whenever you need to start over again. Once you have the build order down, you will improve dramatically because you'll free up your brain to do other things than think about when to make buildings. I just save the game after the probe split or after the first gateway and just reload after I take the build as far as I want. Either way, it is THE way to improve. | ||
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Moriwo
United States33 Posts
Here's a cool replay from Tyler that I thought could be a source for some ideas. In this rep Tyler ends up not getting Colossi at all. Tyler instead does a sick timing push that commences as +2/+2 and blink complete with charge already completed. Even without the push, I think this variant also allows for a quicker 3rd while still staying pretty safe. I also noticed that in this replay Tyler staggers the expo assimilators somewhat, although I don't think it really makes a difference in the long run. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On March 31 2011 02:07 CecilSunkure wrote: It's going to take some practice to get used to this. I also struggle with the same thing, but feel that the build actually sets you up for better drop defense than without upgrades. Just be sure to engage around chokes and play pretty defensive until 2-2 is finished (unless you deviate from the plan detailed in the OP somehow). This was giving me an enormous amount of trouble as well until I added in hallucinate and set up patrolling phoenix outside my base and around the map continuously to warn me of drops during the period where I was quite vulnerable (before 2/2). With warning, you can get your units in place a lot faster and mitigate a lot of the damage, or even scare the drops off. It uses a good amount of sentry energy, but if you don't scout a starport with your initial phoenix hallucinates you don't need to worry about it for a while. Observer speed is great for this later on, but it comes out too late with this build. Also: I find that a great mid-game transition is to stick on gateways, and skip colossi (I still get the robotics bay for warp prism and observer speed, which are underused but AMAZING upgrades), and get a dark shrine (you already have the twilight council). The DT's can be used for minor harassment, but more important, can pin your opponent to let you take your third. I like to get +shield upgrades as well after the first +1 armor in place of +2 weapons (never delay +2 armor) and then get +2 weapons/+3 armor then +3 weapons/+2 shields. Archons after getting +shield upgrades are absurdly strong when mixed in gateway armies against MMM: they soak so much damage to help protect your stalkers, and they get in there behind the chargelots which soak damage for the archons, letting them attack from just behind them (Archons do fantastic damage vs. the bioball if they get attacks off). Always make archons from DT's if you can, less gas cost. After watching Adelscott beat MVP, I've been doing a lot of experimenting with gateway units, and basically have come to the conclusion that a full gateway army with observer/warp prism support can beat any terran composition except pure mech, and mech is beaten without too much difficulty by adding on a few stargates for VR's and carriers later. Doesn't matter what their bio composition is, whether they go heavy marines or maruaders, or get ghosts and even reapers (reapers do stupid amounts of dps -_-), gateway units can beat them. Gateway units also do great against heavy air play: archons and blink stalkers tear terran air units apart. Only thing that's given me trouble with air is heavy air upgrades on battlecruisers with ravens, but that's only been twice and I had never seen it before. | ||
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noelsusman
United States19 Posts
Stuff like 70 Twilight Council and 90 Support Bay is pretty useless. Twilight comes at 50-70% 1/1 completion (like you said). Support Bay comes as soon as you have the gas for it after you start 2/2. You should continue making probes until 70-80 and use your upgrade advantage to secure a third base. Tyler normally sticks to 3 gateways until he gets a third up. I personally like to push while expanding when 2/2 finishes (maybe when thermal lance finishes if a drop did damage). You mentioned this in your post, but I just want to reiterate that your gas spending is what is key in this build. Early on you build sentries and a few stalkers. Once your forges are down you pretty much build 95%+ zealots and your gas goes into upgrades. Once 2/2 starts your gas moves to colossus tech/production and stalkers. One last note: 2/2 is a stronger timing push than 1/1. When 1/1 finishes the terran can easily be 1/0. When 2/2 finishes the terran is probably only at 1/1, which is a bigger advantage. If you wait just a little longer for 2-3 colossi + range then it's an insanely strong timing. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On April 04 2011 16:44 noelsusman wrote: A few notes since I've been studying this build a lot recently. Stuff like 70 Twilight Council and 90 Support Bay is pretty useless. Twilight comes at 50-70% 1/1 completion (like you said). Support Bay comes as soon as you have the gas for it after you start 2/2 Looks to me like my notes in the OP are more accurate; Tyler doesn't put the support down when he can afford it, he gets it right after 2-2 finished. He gets thermal lance and a clossus immediately as the support bay finishes, however. I imagine he just needed some more stalkers in his army at that specific time instead of a quicker support bay. A common mistake people have in copying build orders is to just get everything too quickly. Often times there are key delays where you just spend your money on probes, pylons, and your army. | ||
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Moriwo
United States33 Posts
+2/+2 upgrades and Twilight Council upgrades will consume a good amount of your gas. Colossus tech also consumes a good amount of your gas. Doing both at the same time will limit any other normal unit composition you will have. Beginning the Colossus tech after +2/+2 is done means that your gas expenditure is shifting from upgrades into Colossus tech. The Colossus tech isn't needed that early to be safe, and the units that you can get are far less limited when your gas isn't spread so thin. I do feel as though food counts outside the opening aren't that useful. It seems like a bad way to learn the build since there will be too much of a fixation on achieving those numbers as opposed to adjusting to what the flow of the game dictates. I think relative timings are better than strict food counts at that point. Another thing that I noticed is that in the OP you note that the first Cybernetics Core unit should be a Stalker, but a lot of the time I see Tyler get a Sentry first. Any thoughts on why you like one or the other better? As far as timings go, Sentry first delays Warpgate tech by a little bit and it's harder to kill the scouting SCV, but at the same time it feels a bit safer. + Show Spoiler + -@100% Zealot/Cybernetics Core: Sentry -Warpgate when gas allows -Robotics Facility when resources allow -@100% Sentry: Zealot -Gateway when resources allow -@100% Zealot: Sentry I've seen this unit order a few times, and it seems fairly reasonable. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Sentry first allows you to get the second assimilator earlier and means more energy on your sentry which is always useful and if the terran runs away his scv beforehand like they usually do it doesnt even matter you didn't get a stalker. With the correct build it doesn't delay warpgate tech either. | ||
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AxiR
Germany944 Posts
http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens3/vod/1455 There are quite a few differences : hongun did it of a 1gate expand and he chooses to go chargelots into HT's instead of colossi, but the main idea is pretty much exactly the same. | ||
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noelsusman
United States19 Posts
On April 05 2011 02:09 CecilSunkure wrote: Looks to me like my notes in the OP are more accurate; Tyler doesn't put the support down when he can afford it, he gets it right after 2-2 finished. He gets thermal lance and a clossus immediately as the support bay finishes, however. I imagine he just needed some more stalkers in his army at that specific time instead of a quicker support bay. A common mistake people have in copying build orders is to just get everything too quickly. Often times there are key delays where you just spend your money on probes, pylons, and your army. You're right (especially about copying build orders). I've seen him put down the support bay right after 2/2 was started, but I've also seen him wait until 2/2 is done like you said. It seems to be situational at that point. Getting the robo bay right when 2/2 is started is going to leave you with not much gas for additional stalkers, so I think waiting is probably better/safer now that I think about it. | ||
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Perplex
United States1693 Posts
On April 05 2011 02:09 CecilSunkure wrote: Looks to me like my notes in the OP are more accurate; Tyler doesn't put the support down when he can afford it, he gets it right after 2-2 finished. He gets thermal lance and a clossus immediately as the support bay finishes, however. I imagine he just needed some more stalkers in his army at that specific time instead of a quicker support bay. A common mistake people have in copying build orders is to just get everything too quickly. Often times there are key delays where you just spend your money on probes, pylons, and your army. I think your notes are missing a cybernetics core though >< | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On April 10 2011 12:50 Perplex wrote: I think your notes are missing a cybernetics core though >< Oya, sorry about that. That part is so obvious to me I didn't actually write it or the beginning part of my notes for myself; I added that on to post here. Make a core @100% Gateway ^_^ | ||
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