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On March 30 2011 21:24 Lochat wrote:
Just for the record, a +1 Marine kills a +2armor stalkers just as quickly as a +0 marine kills a +0armor stalkers, due to the fact that the marines will be doing +1 relative to 80shield HPs and a relative -1 to 80 Armor HPs.
Well, simply put, you're wrong.
+1 marines do 7 base damage, they need 32 hits to kill a +2 armor stalker (12 for shields, 20 for armor).
+0 marines do 6 base damage, they need 30 hits to kill a +0 armor stalker (14 for shields, 16 for armor).
If you add guardian shield on top of that, it's 56 hits for +1/0 vs +0/2 and 47 for +0/0 vs +0/0.
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Its a really strong build, but i have personally been having a lot of trouble with 2-3 pronged attacks e.i double medivac drops in your main / back of your nat, while a little groundforce hit the front of your nat. maybe i just need to split my army up better, but then i feel very weak against a full on frontal attack.
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On March 30 2011 12:06 Xanczor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 08:59 lim1017 wrote:
As much as I love tyer he did not create the double forge build. He may have popularized it or perfected it, but the first time I saw double forge was in gsl. IT was hong un prime playing vs a terran (I forget the nane). On stog incontrol and tyler were discussing it still unsure how viable it was Ur wrong. Think logically, tyler is the one who makes funky builds, koreans just practice mechanics and refine standard play to perfection, so it is highly unlikely that hongun created double forge
So "logically" speaking... you are saying that a whole country of people don't come up with their own builds? They just use other peoples builds and then work out the mechanics? Logic at its finest.
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On March 30 2011 22:14 StrinterN wrote:
Its a really strong build, but i have personally been having a lot of trouble with 2-3 pronged attacks e.i double medivac drops in your main / back of your nat, while a little groundforce hit the front of your nat. maybe i just need to split my army up better, but then i feel very weak against a full on frontal attack.
It's going to take some practice to get used to this. I also struggle with the same thing, but feel that the build actually sets you up for better drop defense than without upgrades. Just be sure to engage around chokes and play pretty defensive until 2-2 is finished (unless you deviate from the plan detailed in the OP somehow).
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I've been winging this build for a while now. I love it! Thanks for the BO!
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Ive been trying variations of this build, and I feel the robo tech is much more valuable than getting 2-2 + council upgrades.
The distraction and fear of collosi distract the opponents into overcommiting to corruptors and vikings while the real damage is done by the gateway ^^
Its like waving a shiny item above your head then punching your opponent with your other hand when he isnt looking 
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On March 31 2011 05:16 resilve wrote:
The distraction and fear of collosi distract the opponents into overcommiting to corruptors and vikings while the real damage is done by the gateway ^^
You know this is for PvT. Also, this would never work against a good opponent, and a good reaction to fast Colossi in PvT is to simply force you to split your army? You know, colossus work better the more you get, so splitting a Protoss army that relies on Colossus is very detrimental mid-game.
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Iamke you are an inspiration for the community. Keep posting <3
+ Show Spoiler +is this similar to the build adelscot did against MVP??
I noticed 3 trends while watching progames which i would like to hear you about:
1 fast starport builds in pvz
2 phoenix collosi play vs mass vikking mmm, who has air control wins.
3 double forge builds
Any thoughts on these developments?
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On March 31 2011 06:16 TheAwesomeAll wrote:Iamke you are an inspiration for the community. Keep posting <3 + Show Spoiler +is this similar to the build adelscot did against MVP?? I noticed 3 trends while watching progames which i would like to hear you about: 1 fast starport builds in pvz 2 phoenix collosi play vs mass vikking mmm, who has air control wins. 3 double forge builds Any thoughts on these developments?
1: Forge FE then phoenix might be the best PvZ build on larger maps such as Tal'Darim Altar. You need some kind of map control unit to prevent the Zerg player from getting a massive economy, and it has to be a tech path that prevents a mass muta ball.
2: It seems pretty good in the mid game, but it doesn't benefit enough from upgrades to transition well into late game.
3: I like it more than phoenix/colossus.
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On March 30 2011 10:17 Foooky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 09:44 deerpark87 wrote:
Pretty sure hong un prime used this built first on GSL and not tyler. Yes but one might claim that the title of this thread refers to tylers version of the double forge build which perhaps is refined past the concept of double forge exhibited by hongun in GSL
Indeed. They kinda said in state of the game that Hongun did his best to lose, but the build was so good he just couldn't.
I was wondering though.. are there any replays? I'd like to study it even closer on my own to find ways to memorize it, but I can't get a hold of a replay. For me vods are mainly for entertainment purposes, as I can't really pause and follow what a specific player is doing, as it's just following the action.
What's happening back in the base when a drop or big attack occurs is mostly the most interesting for learning purposes.
I love the build order you made though. There are some nice timings to fetch from it.
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The strength of the build is all in getting an armor advantage against marines. Most other units either gain damage potential or dmg reduction around 10-15% per upgrade, and they roughly cancel (with attack being a bit better). But marine's base dmg is so low that each armor upgrade starts having huge ramifications. Of course it's even crazier with guardian shield (if it is active, a mere +1 armor advantage is worth 33% damaga reduction against marines, one of the hugest effects of any upgrade in the game)
0 armor: (can't happen)
1 armor: 16.6% dmg reduction
2 armor: further 20% dmg reduction
3 armor: further 25% dmg reduction
4 armor: further 33% dmg reduction
5 armor: further 50% dmg reduction
Note that those are _cumulative_ reductions
5 armor is +1 base +2 armor upgrade + guardian shield
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On March 30 2011 20:31 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 19:05 Validity wrote:On March 30 2011 17:32 Alejandrisha wrote:On March 30 2011 17:21 Dommk wrote:
I like TT1's style better. One forge for fast Armor upgrades then add the second when you are comfortable, 1 less forge and upgrade early game really helps in surviving early pressure, especially against 1 basing Terran. to be honest, you shouldn't be able to make use of upgrades before a 1 basing terran hits you. If you are somehow uprading while a 1base terran is on the way, you might as well cancel it. In this build, the forges usually go down at ~7:30 which is pretty much the earliest you can actually support upgrades as toss. you might be able to get the upgrade by the time the terran all-in hits you if it's one of those 1/1/2 or 2/1/1 banshee/raven/tank/marine things but you are 99% of the time better off forgoing the forge and opting for units for survival instead. amazing OP btw sorry i didn't get back to you i have been very busy this week and haven't been able to contribute too much in terms of guides. like you even need me anyway looking at this thread!! gj ive been playing double forge for like 5 months now and my first +1 armor finishes at like 8 minutes which is more than soon enough for any of the threatening Terran all ins (i don't consider 3 rax threatening to 1-3 gate fe). 50 marine hits to kill a zealot is really awesome against all ins That's way fast, you would have to get your forge at 5 minutes, so i guess you go 1gate exp and then get a single forge?
yea i throw down a forge with my 3 gates after 1 gate fe if i scout enough marauders to not be scared of banshees
it works really really well
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I've been trying to get the greedy fast expo to dual forge opening working for me. The thing I'm trying to do is not make a robo until I have 3 bases up or possibly just not at all. You can get a good amount of scouting info early before you are 100% set on the path of the build.
I'm looking for bio builds in order to continue with the entire build. If you scout or highly suspect cloaked banshees, you have time to get a cannon at both mineral lines. I tried to have it worked out if they didn't have banshees to get 3 bases and high templar, but now templar aren't quite as good so I haven't thought about that particular style of the build recently.
It seems most people prefer to get blink to help defend against drops, but there is a good timing window as you get +2/+2 and charge at the same time. With a high number of upgraded zealots and a few stalkers and sentries, it can be a powerful attack.
Nice post though. Thanks for it.
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I usually do a variation of this build, go for the 3 gate expand and stealing gas so you dont need to worry about cloak, throw down the robo after the expand and then double forge.
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On March 30 2011 21:31 Lurk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 21:24 Lochat wrote:
Just for the record, a +1 Marine kills a +2armor stalkers just as quickly as a +0 marine kills a +0armor stalkers, due to the fact that the marines will be doing +1 relative to 80shield HPs and a relative -1 to 80 Armor HPs. Well, simply put, you're wrong. +1 marines do 7 base damage, they need 32 hits to kill a +2 armor stalker (12 for shields, 20 for armor). +0 marines do 6 base damage, they need 30 hits to kill a +0 armor stalker (14 for shields, 16 for armor). If you add guardian shield on top of that, it's 56 hits for +1/0 vs +0/2 and 47 for +0/0 vs +0/0.
I'm confused, did you just attempt to correct my post by pointing out that a unit with .86 attack speed before stim that costs 1/3rd the stalker does needs two more attacks with a +1 armor upgrade?
Uh, I guess it's good to stand corrected, moreso when it just reinforces my point.
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On March 31 2011 19:00 Lochat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 21:31 Lurk wrote:On March 30 2011 21:24 Lochat wrote:
Just for the record, a +1 Marine kills a +2armor stalkers just as quickly as a +0 marine kills a +0armor stalkers, due to the fact that the marines will be doing +1 relative to 80shield HPs and a relative -1 to 80 Armor HPs. Well, simply put, you're wrong. +1 marines do 7 base damage, they need 32 hits to kill a +2 armor stalker (12 for shields, 20 for armor). +0 marines do 6 base damage, they need 30 hits to kill a +0 armor stalker (14 for shields, 16 for armor). If you add guardian shield on top of that, it's 56 hits for +1/0 vs +0/2 and 47 for +0/0 vs +0/0. I'm confused, did you just attempt to correct my post by pointing out that a unit with .86 attack speed before stim that costs 1/3rd the stalker does needs two more attacks with a +1 armor upgrade? Uh, I guess it's good to stand corrected, moreso when it just reinforces my point.
Actually he says that compared to a +0 attack marine vs +0 armor stalker
+1 attack marine vs +2 armor stalker takes 6% more hits to die
+1 attack marine vs +2 armor stalker with guardian shield takes 19% more hits to die*
I do agree that 6% isn't much, but 19% is a big deal.
The biggest difference is probably for the Zealot that is buffering the damage. It has 100 life and 50 shields instead of 80/80, so having an armor upgrade advantage probably helps even more.
In the game between Adelscott and MVP he got great value for his Zealots and when they died, he used blink to get away, preserving the Stalkers and warping in mostly Zealots. That way he traded mostly Zealots for marine/marauders/medivacs, which gives the edge to Protoss.
*just to clarify, this is with the +0 armor stalker with guardian shield as well.
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as i freshly switched to P after about 4k zerg games, im thankful for this, very nicely done, very instructive (if that's a word)
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On March 31 2011 19:00 Lochat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 21:31 Lurk wrote:On March 30 2011 21:24 Lochat wrote:
Just for the record, a +1 Marine kills a +2armor stalkers just as quickly as a +0 marine kills a +0armor stalkers, due to the fact that the marines will be doing +1 relative to 80shield HPs and a relative -1 to 80 Armor HPs. Well, simply put, you're wrong. +1 marines do 7 base damage, they need 32 hits to kill a +2 armor stalker (12 for shields, 20 for armor). +0 marines do 6 base damage, they need 30 hits to kill a +0 armor stalker (14 for shields, 16 for armor). If you add guardian shield on top of that, it's 56 hits for +1/0 vs +0/2 and 47 for +0/0 vs +0/0. I'm confused, did you just attempt to correct my post by pointing out that a unit with .86 attack speed before stim that costs 1/3rd the stalker does needs two more attacks with a +1 armor upgrade? Uh, I guess it's good to stand corrected, moreso when it just reinforces my point.
I just wanted to point out a mathematical error in your statement, nothing more. I didn't want to argue whether or not marines are good vs stalkers, just that armor upgrades are more useful than you stated.
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Rewatching the game of TT1 vs Nada I realized he did a very similar style to this except he gets just 1 forge first to start armor. This might be a good move actually as you can get that forge a little quicker starting your armor upgrade faster and you can also elect to stay on 1 forge in case your opponent is very aggresive. Some timing attacks that hit just before your upgrades finish can be hard to stop which makes sense as upgrades practically do nothing if the units that benefit from them died before the upgrade finishes. If you instead start attack and armor upgrades at different times you won't have such a weak point in your early game, you're armor up will be done earlier and your attack up a bit later. With chronoboost Protoss even has a natural way to correct differences in timings later so you could still do a +2+2 timing attack with both upgrades finishing at the same time, even though you might have started attack a bit later.
TT1 also opted to not go robo at all early on and just defended against cloak banshee's with some cannons, which is a very interesting decision, cutting the robo could make this build an ideal followup to 1 or 3 gate FE's which provide a much smoother transition imo. Paying 200m 100g for a building that only makes 1 or 2 obs for the first 10-12 mins of the game seems a bit silly, especially as cannons could provide the same detection. Perhaps use hallucination or a stargate opener instead for scouting? You only really need to know if they go cloak banshee's or some other rare build like thor pushing.
At the moment I most use this build with robo still because I dislike the lack of scouting pure warpgate play has. However I find immortals pretty good in combination with this tactic actually as they benefit really well from upgrades, more so then stalkers. Their lack of mobility can be a hassle obviously but early on you rely on forcefield cages to stop kiting anyway.
Immortals with +1 attack will 2 shot a stimmed marauder and +1 armor benefits them more then stalkers as well.
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Should add, that you add the third geyser when you are at 17 probes at your expansion. Tyler said this on SOTG a month or so back. and fourth when you are back over 17.
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EPT
