Overview By utilizing chronoboost it is possible to finish +2 Weapons and +2 Armor early in the game at a time when Terrans can only have +1 Weapons and/or armor. The combination of upgrades and Guardian Shield makes gateway units incredibly durable against the ranged attacks of Terran bio units.
With this build you will open up with a standard 2 or 3 Gate Robo expand followed by two Forges for access to quick upgrades. The strong foundation you have in upgraded Gateway units gives you several options in the mid game.
This build was created by TLAF-Liquid`Tyler, who recently defeated TLAF-Liquid`Jinro with it at PAX East.
9 Pylon 13 Gateway 15 Assimilator 16 Pylon Zealot + Assim @ Core Finishes Chrono Stalker @ Core Finish Sentry Robo @ 100 gas Gateway 3rd gate @ robo finish Warp in 2-3 sentry Nexus @ 400 minerals 2 forge @ nex 50% Nat assims + twilight @ 50% upgrades Support bay after 2-2 colo + range immediately Add 2 gateways (might need these earlier if macro is poor) *Units should constantly be being produced from your gateways with no down-time. If you cannot do this on your own, add on one or two more gateways when you money gets high.
Opening Build You start with a 3 Gate Robo expand.
9 Pylon
13 Gateway
14 Assimilator
16 Pylon
@100 Gateway: Cybernetics Core
@100 minerals: Zealot
@75 minerals: 2nd Assimilator
@100% Cybernetics Core: Stalker, Warpgate
25 Pylon
2 Sentries from 1st Gateway
30 Robotics Facility
2nd Gateway, Pylon, 3rd Gateway all when you have enough minerals
@100% Robotics Facility: Observer
Warp in 2 Sentries once Warpgate research is done
44 Nexus
@300 minerals: 2x Forge, make sure to stop boosting probes
@100% 2x Forge: +1 Weapons, +1 Armor
You can do a double Forge build off of any fast Robo opening, so I’ll use a 3 Gate Robo in this guide because I already wrote one about 2 Gate Robo and this is TLAF-Liquid`Tyler’s preferred opening. By getting a Zealot before the Cybernetics Core is done and getting a 3rd Gateway, you will be able to expand pretty early without getting an Immortal**. The 2 Forges are made when you would normally tech to Colossus: your observer has enough info for you to know that you won’t die to a 1 base all-in. Incidentally, getting 2x Forge and +1/+1 is actually cheaper than getting a Robotics Bay and 1 Colossus by 200 gas. The disadvantage is that the going double Forge takes about a minute longer to finish 1/1 whereas an early Colossus would come about a minute earlier.
**I advise skipping Immortals entirely; getting more Gateway units is far better against drops, as splitting an army in half when Immortals are being used harms a Protoss army much more than splitting one up into several places if it relies on numerous Gateway units -Immortals need support or large numbers to be effective.
Once you’re almost done with this part of the build, your Observer will usually see an expansion and Bunkers (if not then you may have to abandon the build). This is your cue to take map control with your army and secure watch towers.
Midgame Build
Constant Chrono Boosts on upgrades
@8-10 gas units, produce exclusively Zealots
70 Twilight Council, expansion Assimilators (upgrades should be at 70%)
4th and 5th Gateways, can start making stalkers again
From here, you need to pretty much never miss a Chrono Boost on Colossus
On 2 bases, the most efficient probe count to income ratio is between 48 and 52. It’s not necessary to create more probes until you are building a 3rd Nexus, at which point you Chrono Boost them and probably get +3/+3 as well to prepare for the late game.
+1/+1 upgrades tend to finish at 10:00. If you can it's best to engage after these finish!
The Robotics Bay can be gotten earlier if you make fewer gas units.
At 14:30, your 3rd Colossus should pop and Extended Thermal Lance is done so this is a good time to attack. From here you either win the game outright as in TLAF-Liquid`Tyler vs TLAF-Liquid`Jinro, or put on enough pressure to get a 3rd base. If you attack any later than this timing, then you should be taking a faster 3rd base and getting charge/blink, and even +3/+3 upgrades if you attack significantly later.
Once you get past mid game, you’re in the same position or better compared to standard play so refer to my PvT guide for late game play, engagement tactics, and defensive positioning. Variations You can skip the Robotics Bay and just mass Gateway units while getting charge/blink and +3/+3 upgrades. You add a 2nd Robotics Facility for Colossi once you have 3 bases running. Doing this and adding Immortals is pretty strong against 1/1/1 expand builds.
You can go double Forge from any opening as long as your opponent isn’t doing a 1 base all-in, so 2 Gate Robo, 3 Gate openers, and 1 Gate Nexus can all work.
There is also the option to just do a standard Colossus build and just make two Forges when you would normally make one. It’s slightly less safe than standard Colossus play and this build, but it gives you the strongest army later on for sure. Open up the spoiler on greedy variation in my thread to see how this works. This is the preferred build of WhiteRa and ZeeRax. Strengths
Focusing on early upgrades and delaying your tech sets you up for late game incredibly well.
Having really buff Gateway units quickly make warp-ins much stronger against drops.
Upgrades are very effective against 1/1/1 expand openings as they often go biomech, which is too diverse a unit composition to match your upgrades.
The +2/+2 upgrades finish early enough to do a very strong mid-game push with Thermal Lance, as seen in our VOD of Liquid Tyler.
Weaknesses
If a Terran blindly guesses that you’re not going to be aggressive, he can skip Bunkers and possibly take advantage of a lack of aggression on part of the Protoss.
The delayed Colossus means you might have trouble holding off Ghost timing attacks where the Terran expands and then makes 5 Barracks. Again though, the Terran has to guess you’re doing this instead of the standard fast Colossus build.
Replays/VODs
TLAF-Liquid`Tyler vs TLAF-Liquid`Jinro - Double Forge vs MM fast expo
Using this build for a long time and I have to admit it's very very strong , when i can execute it properly i win easily 75% of my games.
I think one of the weaknesses is that its pretty hard to stop drops since you only have zealots , sentries and some precious stalkers , so youre army isnt very mobile.
Always quality stuff from you sir. This clears up a lot of the timings I was curious about. I assumed the double forge came after adding on the additional gateways. Thanks again, hope you get blue'd. This seems like really stable play vs midgame MM, and can transition well into just about anything involving a ground base army. The ghost pushes seem like an issue that can be overcome if you cut probes appropriately when you spot it to get out additional units.
Good strat. I especially think this is strong on bigger maps with some more space between the expansions. The traditional colossus style can be exploited by good terrans on those maps because multiple drops are really problematic to defend with colossi, you simply can't split up armies with colossi as well as pure gateway armies. Upgraded warpins are also much better of course. A key thing in this strat is getting blink in time imo as that really is key to be able to stop kiting and drops, which can often make it possible to get a quick third which is the real strength of this strategy imo. Especially as gas #3 and #4 aren't really needed often with this build you can really get that third base quickly to get that mineral economy going well.
I'm really wondering myself if somehow the early robo can't be cut completely from this build. It is quite an expensive building and all it is used for is observers and the potential to create quick immortals/colossi if needed. Most of the time it is just sitting there doing nothing. I wonder if you're going forges anyway if cannons couldn't be just as adequate in case you need to defend various all-ins or banshee cloak harass. A cannon near the nexus can both serve as defense for the expo and provide detection against cloak while a second cannon can be made at the home base if needed in the rare case they go banshee. 2 cannons is still cheaper then a robo for example.
I have been trying to incorporate this build into my play lately....love the double forge. Thank you for putting so much effort into this, I'm sure it will help me a lot.
My favorite part about this is how strong your Gateway units are when faced against Medivacs. It's as if the upgrades are like this 1.5 tier tech that matches against the healing Medivacs do, allowing you to deal with drops and mid-game bio balls while delaying that big AoE tech (Colossus/Templar), thus being able to take an early third base or mount a very strong 2 base mid-game push with Thermal Lance.
I've been trying to figure it out myself through vods and just practice games, and i ended up with something similar. This guide however, clears up some timings that make the build run more smoothly, like when to build the forges and when to build the twilight
From what ive seen, this build is incredibly strong, and its interchangeable with other protoss stratagies. The key point i think, is the gaurdian sheild/armor combo, the damage mitigated is so extreme (coupled with charge) and the damage delt is also significant.
I think i will be making this a staple of my PvT, as it is really strong and has few weaknesses.
Why ??? I took so much time researching this build and was only sharing it with friends ... :/ Oh well, thank you
My little variation: Sometimes I skip gateway after robo and get a quicker expansion, depending on what my opponent is doing. Also, lets me get charge and blink a bit faster + adding robotic bay. I would recommend making 2-4 colossi and try to snipe medivacs with blink stalkers while zealots are tanking damage. If you are successful, you will force terran to make medivacs OR vikings. Depending on their choice, you can decide on making colossi + expand or add a stargate with carriers, it will be a good choice
On March 30 2011 08:50 LesPhoques wrote: Why ??? I took so much time researching this build and was only sharing it with friends ... :/ Oh well, thank you
On March 30 2011 08:50 LesPhoques wrote: Why ??? I took so much time researching this build and was only sharing it with friends ... :/ Oh well, thank you
As much as I love tyer he did not create the double forge build. He may have popularized it or perfected it, but the first time I saw double forge was in gsl. IT was hong un prime playing vs a terran (I forget the nane). On stog incontrol and tyler were discussing it still unsure how viable it was
someone get this in the liquipedia page plz i've been messing with stuff like this, but having a more direct list of how tyler is doing it is nice and would help people who haven't tried it before.
On March 30 2011 09:44 deerpark87 wrote: Pretty sure hong un prime used this built first on GSL and not tyler.
Yes but one might claim that the title of this thread refers to tylers version of the double forge build which perhaps is refined past the concept of double forge exhibited by hongun in GSL
Ah cool, being waiting for this to appear for ages, but newer players should also know they need to adjust the timing of the nexus depending on what their opponent does, especially in the case of marine/raven/tank 1 base allins or funky 1 rax expands or 15 OCs on the bigger maps. Wonderful post though!
On March 30 2011 08:59 lim1017 wrote: As much as I love tyer he did not create the double forge build. He may have popularized it or perfected it, but the first time I saw double forge was in gsl. IT was hong un prime playing vs a terran (I forget the nane). On stog incontrol and tyler were discussing it still unsure how viable it was
Ur wrong. Think logically, tyler is the one who makes funky builds, koreans just practice mechanics and refine standard play to perfection, so it is highly unlikely that hongun created double forge
On March 30 2011 08:59 lim1017 wrote: As much as I love tyer he did not create the double forge build. He may have popularized it or perfected it, but the first time I saw double forge was in gsl. IT was hong un prime playing vs a terran (I forget the nane). On stog incontrol and tyler were discussing it still unsure how viable it was
Ur wrong. Think logically, tyler is the one who makes funky builds, koreans just practice mechanics and refine standard play to perfection, so it is highly unlikely that hongun created double forge
On March 30 2011 08:59 lim1017 wrote: As much as I love tyer he did not create the double forge build. He may have popularized it or perfected it, but the first time I saw double forge was in gsl. IT was hong un prime playing vs a terran (I forget the nane). On stog incontrol and tyler were discussing it still unsure how viable it was
Ur wrong. Think logically, tyler is the one who makes funky builds, koreans just practice mechanics and refine standard play to perfection, so it is highly unlikely that hongun created double forge
So you basically just called me out and said I was wrong, based on what you thought likely happened...
On March 30 2011 10:40 Retgery wrote: How well does it work, if you do the 2 forges after a kcdc FE?
If you don't die, better.
Haha <3
This in a nutshell. The greedier you play, the more efficient the double forge becomes. FE into double forge is probably the greediest opening available for PvT right now (well, you could even think about going straight colossi too, but this would just be straight up crazy).
I love double forge play, I've investigated this playstyle since HongUn owned with it in the memorable game on Metalopolis vs Rain. (don't want to go into who invented it; this is still the match where I saw it first). What I want to emphazise is its enormous FLEXIBILITY. It was also mentioned in the OP:
On March 30 2011 06:37 iamke55 wrote: Variations You can skip the Robotics Bay and just mass Gateway units while getting charge/blink and +3/+3 upgrades. You add a 2nd Robotics Facility for Colossi once you have 3 bases running. Doing this and adding Immortals is pretty strong against 1/1/1 expand builds.
You can go double Forge from any opening as long as your opponent isn’t doing a 1 base all-in, so 2 Gate Robo, 3 Gate openers, and 1 Gate Nexus can all work.
Personally I prefer getting a faster third while teching to templars and adding colossi at the same time after charge/blink is done. If you manage to not get your stalkers killed, then you can sink all your minerals in chargelots and have the spare gas to tech.
Also I've recently started to 3 gate expo more on the smaller maps, and double forge play works amazingly well off a contain. Simply because the biggest threat (if you are not facing banshees...) are medivacs. Both elevators and drops. Going double forge feels very "natural" after a 3 gate opening since you get many gateway units early anyways.
I like TT1's style better. One forge for fast Armor upgrades then add the second when you are comfortable, 1 less forge and upgrade early game really helps in surviving early pressure, especially against 1 basing Terran.
On March 30 2011 07:19 Markwerf wrote: Good strat. I especially think this is strong on bigger maps with some more space between the expansions. The traditional colossus style can be exploited by good terrans on those maps because multiple drops are really problematic to defend with colossi, you simply can't split up armies with colossi as well as pure gateway armies. Upgraded warpins are also much better of course. A key thing in this strat is getting blink in time imo as that really is key to be able to stop kiting and drops, which can often make it possible to get a quick third which is the real strength of this strategy imo. Especially as gas #3 and #4 aren't really needed often with this build you can really get that third base quickly to get that mineral economy going well.
I'm really wondering myself if somehow the early robo can't be cut completely from this build. It is quite an expensive building and all it is used for is observers and the potential to create quick immortals/colossi if needed. Most of the time it is just sitting there doing nothing. I wonder if you're going forges anyway if cannons couldn't be just as adequate in case you need to defend various all-ins or banshee cloak harass. A cannon near the nexus can both serve as defense for the expo and provide detection against cloak while a second cannon can be made at the home base if needed in the rare case they go banshee. 2 cannons is still cheaper then a robo for example.
I agree with Markwerf, is it possible to skip the robo? As I terran, a 3 gate expand with aggressive contain is very scary. (AFAIK you need the three quick gates to set up the contain, 1 gate robo --> 3 gates won't be as effective). Because you stay on upgraded gateway units for longer you can afford to expo more aggressively behind the contain, and the terran would feel like he's playing from behind the whole game.
As an aside, many players have now shown that upgraded gateways units do not lose to MMM in a straight up fight at all (Tyler, Adelscot...). Maybe this is the end of the "gateway units sucks" whining that is so prevalent in these forums? (Just witness the 1.3 balance threads).
This is a really solid style so there's no direct counter as a Terran. Since the 3 gate robo results in somewhat of a delayed expansion, perhaps the Terran could expand more aggressively and macro, trying to keep pace with upgrades?
On March 30 2011 17:21 Dommk wrote: I like TT1's style better. One forge for fast Armor upgrades then add the second when you are comfortable, 1 less forge and upgrade early game really helps in surviving early pressure, especially against 1 basing Terran.
to be honest, you shouldn't be able to make use of upgrades before a 1 basing terran hits you. If you are somehow uprading while a 1base terran is on the way, you might as well cancel it. In this build, the forges usually go down at ~7:30 which is pretty much the earliest you can actually support upgrades as toss. you might be able to get the upgrade by the time the terran all-in hits you if it's one of those 1/1/2 or 2/1/1 banshee/raven/tank/marine things but you are 99% of the time better off forgoing the forge and opting for units for survival instead.
amazing OP btw sorry i didn't get back to you i have been very busy this week and haven't been able to contribute too much in terms of guides. like you even need me anyway looking at this thread!! gj
On March 30 2011 17:21 Dommk wrote: I like TT1's style better. One forge for fast Armor upgrades then add the second when you are comfortable, 1 less forge and upgrade early game really helps in surviving early pressure, especially against 1 basing Terran.
to be honest, you shouldn't be able to make use of upgrades before a 1 basing terran hits you. If you are somehow uprading while a 1base terran is on the way, you might as well cancel it. In this build, the forges usually go down at ~7:30 which is pretty much the earliest you can actually support upgrades as toss. you might be able to get the upgrade by the time the terran all-in hits you if it's one of those 1/1/2 or 2/1/1 banshee/raven/tank/marine things but you are 99% of the time better off forgoing the forge and opting for units for survival instead.
amazing OP btw sorry i didn't get back to you i have been very busy this week and haven't been able to contribute too much in terms of guides. like you even need me anyway looking at this thread!! gj
Not neccessarily. It's strongly dependant on his composition - if he is marine heavy for dps, the armor upgrade will work wonders here. He probably won't have a ghost with him so you'll be able to use GS. That means the +1 armor will reduce marine dps by 50% from 3 to 2 per shot. I'd say that's worth a lot more than the extra stalker you might be able to squeeze out by cancelling the upgrade.
On March 30 2011 17:21 Dommk wrote: I like TT1's style better. One forge for fast Armor upgrades then add the second when you are comfortable, 1 less forge and upgrade early game really helps in surviving early pressure, especially against 1 basing Terran.
to be honest, you shouldn't be able to make use of upgrades before a 1 basing terran hits you. If you are somehow uprading while a 1base terran is on the way, you might as well cancel it. In this build, the forges usually go down at ~7:30 which is pretty much the earliest you can actually support upgrades as toss. you might be able to get the upgrade by the time the terran all-in hits you if it's one of those 1/1/2 or 2/1/1 banshee/raven/tank/marine things but you are 99% of the time better off forgoing the forge and opting for units for survival instead.
amazing OP btw sorry i didn't get back to you i have been very busy this week and haven't been able to contribute too much in terms of guides. like you even need me anyway looking at this thread!! gj
ive been playing double forge for like 5 months now and my first +1 armor finishes at like 8 minutes which is more than soon enough for any of the threatening Terran all ins (i don't consider 3 rax threatening to 1-3 gate fe).
50 marine hits to kill a zealot is really awesome against all ins
On March 30 2011 17:21 Dommk wrote: I like TT1's style better. One forge for fast Armor upgrades then add the second when you are comfortable, 1 less forge and upgrade early game really helps in surviving early pressure, especially against 1 basing Terran.
to be honest, you shouldn't be able to make use of upgrades before a 1 basing terran hits you. If you are somehow uprading while a 1base terran is on the way, you might as well cancel it. In this build, the forges usually go down at ~7:30 which is pretty much the earliest you can actually support upgrades as toss. you might be able to get the upgrade by the time the terran all-in hits you if it's one of those 1/1/2 or 2/1/1 banshee/raven/tank/marine things but you are 99% of the time better off forgoing the forge and opting for units for survival instead.
amazing OP btw sorry i didn't get back to you i have been very busy this week and haven't been able to contribute too much in terms of guides. like you even need me anyway looking at this thread!! gj
ive been playing double forge for like 5 months now and my first +1 armor finishes at like 8 minutes which is more than soon enough for any of the threatening Terran all ins (i don't consider 3 rax threatening to 1-3 gate fe).
50 marine hits to kill a zealot is really awesome against all ins
That's way fast, you would have to get your forge at 5 minutes, so i guess you go 1gate exp and then get a single forge?
On March 30 2011 16:34 K1LL wrote: Can anyone give me some advice on how to beat this build? my last 3 games vs P were against this build =/ cant seem to beat it
Supposing you're playing bio the correct response to this is simply to go double engineering bay yourself when you see the forges or at least upgrade attack quickly. +1 attack on infantry is actually better then +1 armor for warpgate units because shields will go down quicker, your marauders also gain +2 per upgrade, only your vikings don't benefit from upgrades but their high base damage (14) means that colossus armor doesn't affect them that much. You can't upgrade as quickly as toss but if you throw down double engineering bay when you see double forge you can be on 1/1 when toss is 2/2 and 2/2 when toss is 3/3 so you'll be fine. Because you don't have to make vikings as early against this build you should have the resources to do this.
Timing attacks just before 1/1 finishes can also be quite strong. But the robo variations of this build will usually be able to adept quite well to that by simply going forges a bit later.
After seeing some of Tyler and Adelscott's play in the TSL, I was suprised to see how well fast upgrades on gateway units worked. Coupled with charge and blink it gives a much more mobile and interesting style of play than the standard deathball.
On March 30 2011 17:21 Dommk wrote: I like TT1's style better. One forge for fast Armor upgrades then add the second when you are comfortable, 1 less forge and upgrade early game really helps in surviving early pressure, especially against 1 basing Terran.
to be honest, you shouldn't be able to make use of upgrades before a 1 basing terran hits you. If you are somehow uprading while a 1base terran is on the way, you might as well cancel it. In this build, the forges usually go down at ~7:30 which is pretty much the earliest you can actually support upgrades as toss. you might be able to get the upgrade by the time the terran all-in hits you if it's one of those 1/1/2 or 2/1/1 banshee/raven/tank/marine things but you are 99% of the time better off forgoing the forge and opting for units for survival instead.
amazing OP btw sorry i didn't get back to you i have been very busy this week and haven't been able to contribute too much in terms of guides. like you even need me anyway looking at this thread!! gj
This is off a fast expand. The build that TT1 does has a forge up pretty quickly, so +1 armor is done before any kind of all-in hits (except maybe 3rax, but 3rax is holdable if it isn't close position, and who fast expands vs a Terran in close positions anyway)
Just for the record, a +1 Marine kills a +2armor stalkers just as quickly as a +0 marine kills a +0armor stalkers, due to the fact that the marines will be doing +1 relative to 80shield HPs and a relative -1 to 80 Armor HPs.
Marauders with +1 attack actually kill a +2armor stalkers faster than +0/+0, since they will be doing 22/19 damage due to +2 damage against armor per upgrade, compared to the 0/0 of 20 to shields per shot and 19 damage to armor per shot.
Stalkers also are the T1 unit that scales worst with +attack upgrades in the game, and arguably in the entire game.
Zealots fare slightly better, since they have 100 HPs and 50 shields, and get +1 on two attacks -- if they can actually hit stuff.
The real bonus to double forge is that timing where you get +1/+1 and Terran has +0/+0, otherwise a proper double engineering bay counter to double forge means the Terran is ahead at all times, since.
Honestly, Protoss units scale so poorly with upgrades that being +2/+2 against a Terran +1/1 makes you simply break even, if even that. Double forge is extremely powerful when getting higher tech units, but for pure gateway units it's not nearly as a big of a bonus as people believe, unless the Terran doesn't properly respond with his own upgrades.
On March 30 2011 21:24 Lochat wrote: Just for the record, a +1 Marine kills a +2armor stalkers just as quickly as a +0 marine kills a +0armor stalkers, due to the fact that the marines will be doing +1 relative to 80shield HPs and a relative -1 to 80 Armor HPs.
Well, simply put, you're wrong.
+1 marines do 7 base damage, they need 32 hits to kill a +2 armor stalker (12 for shields, 20 for armor).
+0 marines do 6 base damage, they need 30 hits to kill a +0 armor stalker (14 for shields, 16 for armor).
If you add guardian shield on top of that, it's 56 hits for +1/0 vs +0/2 and 47 for +0/0 vs +0/0.
Its a really strong build, but i have personally been having a lot of trouble with 2-3 pronged attacks e.i double medivac drops in your main / back of your nat, while a little groundforce hit the front of your nat. maybe i just need to split my army up better, but then i feel very weak against a full on frontal attack.
On March 30 2011 08:59 lim1017 wrote: As much as I love tyer he did not create the double forge build. He may have popularized it or perfected it, but the first time I saw double forge was in gsl. IT was hong un prime playing vs a terran (I forget the nane). On stog incontrol and tyler were discussing it still unsure how viable it was
Ur wrong. Think logically, tyler is the one who makes funky builds, koreans just practice mechanics and refine standard play to perfection, so it is highly unlikely that hongun created double forge
So "logically" speaking... you are saying that a whole country of people don't come up with their own builds? They just use other peoples builds and then work out the mechanics? Logic at its finest.
On March 30 2011 22:14 StrinterN wrote: Its a really strong build, but i have personally been having a lot of trouble with 2-3 pronged attacks e.i double medivac drops in your main / back of your nat, while a little groundforce hit the front of your nat. maybe i just need to split my army up better, but then i feel very weak against a full on frontal attack.
It's going to take some practice to get used to this. I also struggle with the same thing, but feel that the build actually sets you up for better drop defense than without upgrades. Just be sure to engage around chokes and play pretty defensive until 2-2 is finished (unless you deviate from the plan detailed in the OP somehow).
Ive been trying variations of this build, and I feel the robo tech is much more valuable than getting 2-2 + council upgrades.
The distraction and fear of collosi distract the opponents into overcommiting to corruptors and vikings while the real damage is done by the gateway ^^
Its like waving a shiny item above your head then punching your opponent with your other hand when he isnt looking
On March 31 2011 05:16 resilve wrote: The distraction and fear of collosi distract the opponents into overcommiting to corruptors and vikings while the real damage is done by the gateway ^^
You know this is for PvT. Also, this would never work against a good opponent, and a good reaction to fast Colossi in PvT is to simply force you to split your army? You know, colossus work better the more you get, so splitting a Protoss army that relies on Colossus is very detrimental mid-game.
is this similar to the build adelscot did against MVP??
I noticed 3 trends while watching progames which i would like to hear you about: 1 fast starport builds in pvz 2 phoenix collosi play vs mass vikking mmm, who has air control wins. 3 double forge builds Any thoughts on these developments?
is this similar to the build adelscot did against MVP??
I noticed 3 trends while watching progames which i would like to hear you about: 1 fast starport builds in pvz 2 phoenix collosi play vs mass vikking mmm, who has air control wins. 3 double forge builds Any thoughts on these developments?
1: Forge FE then phoenix might be the best PvZ build on larger maps such as Tal'Darim Altar. You need some kind of map control unit to prevent the Zerg player from getting a massive economy, and it has to be a tech path that prevents a mass muta ball. 2: It seems pretty good in the mid game, but it doesn't benefit enough from upgrades to transition well into late game. 3: I like it more than phoenix/colossus.
On March 30 2011 09:44 deerpark87 wrote: Pretty sure hong un prime used this built first on GSL and not tyler.
Yes but one might claim that the title of this thread refers to tylers version of the double forge build which perhaps is refined past the concept of double forge exhibited by hongun in GSL
Indeed. They kinda said in state of the game that Hongun did his best to lose, but the build was so good he just couldn't.
I was wondering though.. are there any replays? I'd like to study it even closer on my own to find ways to memorize it, but I can't get a hold of a replay. For me vods are mainly for entertainment purposes, as I can't really pause and follow what a specific player is doing, as it's just following the action. What's happening back in the base when a drop or big attack occurs is mostly the most interesting for learning purposes. I love the build order you made though. There are some nice timings to fetch from it.
The strength of the build is all in getting an armor advantage against marines. Most other units either gain damage potential or dmg reduction around 10-15% per upgrade, and they roughly cancel (with attack being a bit better). But marine's base dmg is so low that each armor upgrade starts having huge ramifications. Of course it's even crazier with guardian shield (if it is active, a mere +1 armor advantage is worth 33% damaga reduction against marines, one of the hugest effects of any upgrade in the game)
0 armor: (can't happen) 1 armor: 16.6% dmg reduction 2 armor: further 20% dmg reduction 3 armor: further 25% dmg reduction 4 armor: further 33% dmg reduction 5 armor: further 50% dmg reduction
Note that those are _cumulative_ reductions
5 armor is +1 base +2 armor upgrade + guardian shield
On March 30 2011 17:21 Dommk wrote: I like TT1's style better. One forge for fast Armor upgrades then add the second when you are comfortable, 1 less forge and upgrade early game really helps in surviving early pressure, especially against 1 basing Terran.
to be honest, you shouldn't be able to make use of upgrades before a 1 basing terran hits you. If you are somehow uprading while a 1base terran is on the way, you might as well cancel it. In this build, the forges usually go down at ~7:30 which is pretty much the earliest you can actually support upgrades as toss. you might be able to get the upgrade by the time the terran all-in hits you if it's one of those 1/1/2 or 2/1/1 banshee/raven/tank/marine things but you are 99% of the time better off forgoing the forge and opting for units for survival instead.
amazing OP btw sorry i didn't get back to you i have been very busy this week and haven't been able to contribute too much in terms of guides. like you even need me anyway looking at this thread!! gj
ive been playing double forge for like 5 months now and my first +1 armor finishes at like 8 minutes which is more than soon enough for any of the threatening Terran all ins (i don't consider 3 rax threatening to 1-3 gate fe).
50 marine hits to kill a zealot is really awesome against all ins
That's way fast, you would have to get your forge at 5 minutes, so i guess you go 1gate exp and then get a single forge?
yea i throw down a forge with my 3 gates after 1 gate fe if i scout enough marauders to not be scared of banshees
I've been trying to get the greedy fast expo to dual forge opening working for me. The thing I'm trying to do is not make a robo until I have 3 bases up or possibly just not at all. You can get a good amount of scouting info early before you are 100% set on the path of the build.
I'm looking for bio builds in order to continue with the entire build. If you scout or highly suspect cloaked banshees, you have time to get a cannon at both mineral lines. I tried to have it worked out if they didn't have banshees to get 3 bases and high templar, but now templar aren't quite as good so I haven't thought about that particular style of the build recently.
It seems most people prefer to get blink to help defend against drops, but there is a good timing window as you get +2/+2 and charge at the same time. With a high number of upgraded zealots and a few stalkers and sentries, it can be a powerful attack.
I usually do a variation of this build, go for the 3 gate expand and stealing gas so you dont need to worry about cloak, throw down the robo after the expand and then double forge.
On March 30 2011 21:24 Lochat wrote: Just for the record, a +1 Marine kills a +2armor stalkers just as quickly as a +0 marine kills a +0armor stalkers, due to the fact that the marines will be doing +1 relative to 80shield HPs and a relative -1 to 80 Armor HPs.
Well, simply put, you're wrong.
+1 marines do 7 base damage, they need 32 hits to kill a +2 armor stalker (12 for shields, 20 for armor).
+0 marines do 6 base damage, they need 30 hits to kill a +0 armor stalker (14 for shields, 16 for armor).
If you add guardian shield on top of that, it's 56 hits for +1/0 vs +0/2 and 47 for +0/0 vs +0/0.
I'm confused, did you just attempt to correct my post by pointing out that a unit with .86 attack speed before stim that costs 1/3rd the stalker does needs two more attacks with a +1 armor upgrade?
Uh, I guess it's good to stand corrected, moreso when it just reinforces my point.
On March 30 2011 21:24 Lochat wrote: Just for the record, a +1 Marine kills a +2armor stalkers just as quickly as a +0 marine kills a +0armor stalkers, due to the fact that the marines will be doing +1 relative to 80shield HPs and a relative -1 to 80 Armor HPs.
Well, simply put, you're wrong.
+1 marines do 7 base damage, they need 32 hits to kill a +2 armor stalker (12 for shields, 20 for armor).
+0 marines do 6 base damage, they need 30 hits to kill a +0 armor stalker (14 for shields, 16 for armor).
If you add guardian shield on top of that, it's 56 hits for +1/0 vs +0/2 and 47 for +0/0 vs +0/0.
I'm confused, did you just attempt to correct my post by pointing out that a unit with .86 attack speed before stim that costs 1/3rd the stalker does needs two more attacks with a +1 armor upgrade?
Uh, I guess it's good to stand corrected, moreso when it just reinforces my point.
Actually he says that compared to a +0 attack marine vs +0 armor stalker +1 attack marine vs +2 armor stalker takes 6% more hits to die +1 attack marine vs +2 armor stalker with guardian shield takes 19% more hits to die*
I do agree that 6% isn't much, but 19% is a big deal.
The biggest difference is probably for the Zealot that is buffering the damage. It has 100 life and 50 shields instead of 80/80, so having an armor upgrade advantage probably helps even more.
In the game between Adelscott and MVP he got great value for his Zealots and when they died, he used blink to get away, preserving the Stalkers and warping in mostly Zealots. That way he traded mostly Zealots for marine/marauders/medivacs, which gives the edge to Protoss.
*just to clarify, this is with the +0 armor stalker with guardian shield as well.
On March 30 2011 21:24 Lochat wrote: Just for the record, a +1 Marine kills a +2armor stalkers just as quickly as a +0 marine kills a +0armor stalkers, due to the fact that the marines will be doing +1 relative to 80shield HPs and a relative -1 to 80 Armor HPs.
Well, simply put, you're wrong.
+1 marines do 7 base damage, they need 32 hits to kill a +2 armor stalker (12 for shields, 20 for armor).
+0 marines do 6 base damage, they need 30 hits to kill a +0 armor stalker (14 for shields, 16 for armor).
If you add guardian shield on top of that, it's 56 hits for +1/0 vs +0/2 and 47 for +0/0 vs +0/0.
I'm confused, did you just attempt to correct my post by pointing out that a unit with .86 attack speed before stim that costs 1/3rd the stalker does needs two more attacks with a +1 armor upgrade?
Uh, I guess it's good to stand corrected, moreso when it just reinforces my point.
I just wanted to point out a mathematical error in your statement, nothing more. I didn't want to argue whether or not marines are good vs stalkers, just that armor upgrades are more useful than you stated.
Rewatching the game of TT1 vs Nada I realized he did a very similar style to this except he gets just 1 forge first to start armor. This might be a good move actually as you can get that forge a little quicker starting your armor upgrade faster and you can also elect to stay on 1 forge in case your opponent is very aggresive. Some timing attacks that hit just before your upgrades finish can be hard to stop which makes sense as upgrades practically do nothing if the units that benefit from them died before the upgrade finishes. If you instead start attack and armor upgrades at different times you won't have such a weak point in your early game, you're armor up will be done earlier and your attack up a bit later. With chronoboost Protoss even has a natural way to correct differences in timings later so you could still do a +2+2 timing attack with both upgrades finishing at the same time, even though you might have started attack a bit later.
TT1 also opted to not go robo at all early on and just defended against cloak banshee's with some cannons, which is a very interesting decision, cutting the robo could make this build an ideal followup to 1 or 3 gate FE's which provide a much smoother transition imo. Paying 200m 100g for a building that only makes 1 or 2 obs for the first 10-12 mins of the game seems a bit silly, especially as cannons could provide the same detection. Perhaps use hallucination or a stargate opener instead for scouting? You only really need to know if they go cloak banshee's or some other rare build like thor pushing.
At the moment I most use this build with robo still because I dislike the lack of scouting pure warpgate play has. However I find immortals pretty good in combination with this tactic actually as they benefit really well from upgrades, more so then stalkers. Their lack of mobility can be a hassle obviously but early on you rely on forcefield cages to stop kiting anyway. Immortals with +1 attack will 2 shot a stimmed marauder and +1 armor benefits them more then stalkers as well.
Should add, that you add the third geyser when you are at 17 probes at your expansion. Tyler said this on SOTG a month or so back. and fourth when you are back over 17.
Just want to say to be weary of a terran canceling his CC and doing an all in marine-tank push. I thought I was way ahead when I saw my expo up faster than his, my obs got sniped, 3 mins later he's knocking on my door with 5-6 tanks, 20 marines, and a barracks to spot my high ground. Total FML moment. Bad scouting on my part is mainly to blame, but still something to watch out for.
On March 30 2011 22:14 StrinterN wrote: Its a really strong build, but i have personally been having a lot of trouble with 2-3 pronged attacks e.i double medivac drops in your main / back of your nat, while a little groundforce hit the front of your nat. maybe i just need to split my army up better, but then i feel very weak against a full on frontal attack.
It's going to take some practice to get used to this. I also struggle with the same thing, but feel that the build actually sets you up for better drop defense than without upgrades. Just be sure to engage around chokes and play pretty defensive until 2-2 is finished (unless you deviate from the plan detailed in the OP somehow).
Forge builds are actually designed to be better against drop play because you generally have higher gateway count and better upgrades on gateway units, allowing you to warp in decent drop resistance easily.
Ok so i just tried it, but it was an absolute abonimation of a try. I messed up everything i possibly could, but thankfully still won haha (just gold league, but still).
I do love this build though, been practising it a bit more vs AI, and getting the hang of it. In the live game i made to many gas units so i couldnt afford fast upgrades or constant Colossi upgrade. (besides the fact of getting supply blocked etc etc).
Insane thanks again for this tactic, i also like your other guides, keep it up!! <3
On April 01 2011 04:12 Mithriel wrote: Ok so i just tried it, but it was an absolute abonimation of a try. I messed up everything i possibly could, but thankfully still won haha (just gold league, but still).
I do love this build though, been practising it a bit more vs AI, and getting the hang of it. In the live game i made to many gas units so i couldnt afford fast upgrades or constant Colossi upgrade. (besides the fact of getting supply blocked etc etc).
Insane thanks again for this tactic, i also like your other guides, keep it up!! <3
If you know what you did wrong, run another practice session and solve those problems. Supply blocked? Play again without getting supply blocked. Couldn't afford an upgrade? Next time purchase a zealot intead of a sentry. Stopped producing probes early? Restart and have constant probes. Forgot to warp units in for 15 seconds? Load up the game and try again, without making that mistake. Once you can do the build without messing simple things up, then go run it on ladder. If you do this you'll be playing at a Master's level of play. You're currently in gold league because of the mistakes you know about and can fix
On April 01 2011 04:12 Mithriel wrote: Ok so i just tried it, but it was an absolute abonimation of a try. I messed up everything i possibly could, but thankfully still won haha (just gold league, but still).
I do love this build though, been practising it a bit more vs AI, and getting the hang of it. In the live game i made to many gas units so i couldnt afford fast upgrades or constant Colossi upgrade. (besides the fact of getting supply blocked etc etc).
Insane thanks again for this tactic, i also like your other guides, keep it up!! <3
If you know what you did wrong, run another practice session and solve those problems. Supply blocked? Play again without getting supply blocked. Couldn't afford an upgrade? Next time purchase a zealot intead of a sentry. Stopped producing probes early? Restart and have constant probes. Forgot to warp units in for 15 seconds? Load up the game and try again, without making that mistake. Once you can do the build without messing simple things up, then go run it on ladder. If you do this you'll be playing at a Master's level of play. You're currently in gold league because of the mistakes you know about and can fix
Thanks for the tips! I know i still make a lot of mistakes, but so many because i am "nervous", i try it vs AI and it goes fine, i play on live see a scouting SCV and i freak out
Though i already notice the more games i play, the more calm and "used" i get to the feeling. So for me its indeed practice makes perfect and games games games (while analyzing my loses of course).
On March 30 2011 21:24 Lochat wrote: The real bonus to double forge is that timing where you get +1/+1 and Terran has +0/+0, otherwise a proper double engineering bay counter to double forge means the Terran is ahead at all times, since.
Just wanted to comment on that, haven't had much time to post recently:
The thing is, if terran does this then: a) they will be behind in upgrades because they don't have chrono-boost b) they have to sacrifice "something" else which is a GOOD thing. Because it means that the double forge drags the game into the 3 base-stage when terrans can't get the number of MM or medivacs they'd usually like to have at a certain point in time.
The number one reason why I've always liked this build is, that it's designed to get you into lategame (unless terran suicides himself with a pure mm force vs 1/1 mass gateway units). Going fast colossi has always been playing on razor's edge for me....attack too early: die to pure marauder. Attack too late: die to an already large viking-count. 0/0 colossi have a quite small window where they work, you really need to finish the game or transition into something else (be it templars, phoenixes or upgrades).
On March 31 2011 22:07 Markwerf wrote: Rewatching the game of TT1 vs Nada I realized he did a very similar style to this except he gets just 1 forge first to start armor. This might be a good move actually as you can get that forge a little quicker starting your armor upgrade faster and you can also elect to stay on 1 forge in case your opponent is very aggresive. Some timing attacks that hit just before your upgrades finish can be hard to stop which makes sense as upgrades practically do nothing if the units that benefit from them died before the upgrade finishes. If you instead start attack and armor upgrades at different times you won't have such a weak point in your early game, you're armor up will be done earlier and your attack up a bit later. With chronoboost Protoss even has a natural way to correct differences in timings later so you could still do a +2+2 timing attack with both upgrades finishing at the same time, even though you might have started attack a bit later.
TT1 also opted to not go robo at all early on and just defended against cloak banshee's with some cannons, which is a very interesting decision, cutting the robo could make this build an ideal followup to 1 or 3 gate FE's which provide a much smoother transition imo. Paying 200m 100g for a building that only makes 1 or 2 obs for the first 10-12 mins of the game seems a bit silly, especially as cannons could provide the same detection. Perhaps use hallucination or a stargate opener instead for scouting? You only really need to know if they go cloak banshee's or some other rare build like thor pushing.
At the moment I most use this build with robo still because I dislike the lack of scouting pure warpgate play has. However I find immortals pretty good in combination with this tactic actually as they benefit really well from upgrades, more so then stalkers. Their lack of mobility can be a hassle obviously but early on you rely on forcefield cages to stop kiting anyway. Immortals with +1 attack will 2 shot a stimmed marauder and +1 armor benefits them more then stalkers as well.
I didn't watch that game but it sounds like the build I have been trying out that I mentioned before. I really want to know how viable it is. I don't like going for such an early robo against bio if I know I will only use it for one observer for a long time. I don't mean to derail the thread and hopefully can add more discussion of the general build.
9 pylon 13 gate 14 assim 16 pylon 17/18 core -> warpgate (chrono x2)->hallucination (chrono x?) 22 pylon 30 nexus - chrono on nexus x3 - zealot->stalker (chrono)->sentry->stalker ----- -temporary probe cut at 33 33 2nd assim 33 pylon 33 2nd gate 33 3rd gate - resume probe producation - replace one of the gateways with a forge if cloaked banshees and add one cannon at each mineral line 2 forges when expo is up (constant chrono) ----- twilight council @ 50% +1/+1 +2/+2 and charge @ 100% +1/+1 4th and 5th gates - go for 4 stalkers, 2 sentries, and the rest zealots before starting +2/+2 and charge - add a few more stalkers and sentries as gas allows after upgrading +2/+2 and charge ----- -attack when +2/+2 and charge are 100% (around 132 supply if no major unit losses occurred) (before the 13:00 game time mark if the build went smooth) -as attacking, nexus->tempalr archives, robo facility, or stargate (maybe 2 robos or 2 stargates) - add 2 more gates - add more assims - start +3/+3 ----- Notes - get as much info with first zealot and stalker as possible to determine the opponent's build/composition - chrono out early units if necessary to defend early pressure - possible cannon use if needed against a dangerous rush or maybe an all-in - hallucinate a phoenix and have it scout before 7:00 to make up for no observers - later use hallucinate to pretend you are going a tech you are not and poke at the enemy - only get 2 assims until 3 bases Concerns - staying alive against early pressure with one gate (forcing cannons) - proxy unscouted starport for cloaked banshees - unscouted cloaked ghosts
On April 01 2011 04:12 Mithriel wrote: Ok so i just tried it, but it was an absolute abonimation of a try. I messed up everything i possibly could, but thankfully still won haha (just gold league, but still).
I do love this build though, been practising it a bit more vs AI, and getting the hang of it. In the live game i made to many gas units so i couldnt afford fast upgrades or constant Colossi upgrade. (besides the fact of getting supply blocked etc etc).
Insane thanks again for this tactic, i also like your other guides, keep it up!! <3
If you know what you did wrong, run another practice session and solve those problems. Supply blocked? Play again without getting supply blocked. Couldn't afford an upgrade? Next time purchase a zealot intead of a sentry. Stopped producing probes early? Restart and have constant probes. Forgot to warp units in for 15 seconds? Load up the game and try again, without making that mistake. Once you can do the build without messing simple things up, then go run it on ladder. If you do this you'll be playing at a Master's level of play. You're currently in gold league because of the mistakes you know about and can fix
Cecil, this is by far the best advice I've seen in the strategy forums in a long time. This technique of running through a build over and over in a custom against computer until you don't have a misstep single handedly will get people into top diamond at the least. Thank you for reaffirming my approach to improvement.
On April 01 2011 04:12 Mithriel wrote: Ok so i just tried it, but it was an absolute abonimation of a try. I messed up everything i possibly could, but thankfully still won haha (just gold league, but still).
I do love this build though, been practising it a bit more vs AI, and getting the hang of it. In the live game i made to many gas units so i couldnt afford fast upgrades or constant Colossi upgrade. (besides the fact of getting supply blocked etc etc).
Insane thanks again for this tactic, i also like your other guides, keep it up!! <3
If you know what you did wrong, run another practice session and solve those problems. Supply blocked? Play again without getting supply blocked. Couldn't afford an upgrade? Next time purchase a zealot intead of a sentry. Stopped producing probes early? Restart and have constant probes. Forgot to warp units in for 15 seconds? Load up the game and try again, without making that mistake. Once you can do the build without messing simple things up, then go run it on ladder. If you do this you'll be playing at a Master's level of play. You're currently in gold league because of the mistakes you know about and can fix
Cecil, this is by far the best advice I've seen in the strategy forums in a long time. This technique of running through a build over and over in a custom against computer until you don't have a misstep single handedly will get people into top diamond at the least. Thank you for reaffirming my approach to improvement.
You can save time by using YABOT instead of playing against the computer. Just type -r whenever you need to start over again. Once you have the build order down, you will improve dramatically because you'll free up your brain to do other things than think about when to make buildings.
On April 01 2011 04:12 Mithriel wrote: Ok so i just tried it, but it was an absolute abonimation of a try. I messed up everything i possibly could, but thankfully still won haha (just gold league, but still).
I do love this build though, been practising it a bit more vs AI, and getting the hang of it. In the live game i made to many gas units so i couldnt afford fast upgrades or constant Colossi upgrade. (besides the fact of getting supply blocked etc etc).
Insane thanks again for this tactic, i also like your other guides, keep it up!! <3
If you know what you did wrong, run another practice session and solve those problems. Supply blocked? Play again without getting supply blocked. Couldn't afford an upgrade? Next time purchase a zealot intead of a sentry. Stopped producing probes early? Restart and have constant probes. Forgot to warp units in for 15 seconds? Load up the game and try again, without making that mistake. Once you can do the build without messing simple things up, then go run it on ladder. If you do this you'll be playing at a Master's level of play. You're currently in gold league because of the mistakes you know about and can fix
Cecil, this is by far the best advice I've seen in the strategy forums in a long time. This technique of running through a build over and over in a custom against computer until you don't have a misstep single handedly will get people into top diamond at the least. Thank you for reaffirming my approach to improvement.
You can save time by using YABOT instead of playing against the computer. Just type -r whenever you need to start over again. Once you have the build order down, you will improve dramatically because you'll free up your brain to do other things than think about when to make buildings.
I just save the game after the probe split or after the first gateway and just reload after I take the build as far as I want. Either way, it is THE way to improve.
Here's a cool replay from Tyler that I thought could be a source for some ideas. In this rep Tyler ends up not getting Colossi at all. Tyler instead does a sick timing push that commences as +2/+2 and blink complete with charge already completed. Even without the push, I think this variant also allows for a quicker 3rd while still staying pretty safe.
I also noticed that in this replay Tyler staggers the expo assimilators somewhat, although I don't think it really makes a difference in the long run.
On March 30 2011 22:14 StrinterN wrote: Its a really strong build, but i have personally been having a lot of trouble with 2-3 pronged attacks e.i double medivac drops in your main / back of your nat, while a little groundforce hit the front of your nat. maybe i just need to split my army up better, but then i feel very weak against a full on frontal attack.
It's going to take some practice to get used to this. I also struggle with the same thing, but feel that the build actually sets you up for better drop defense than without upgrades. Just be sure to engage around chokes and play pretty defensive until 2-2 is finished (unless you deviate from the plan detailed in the OP somehow).
This was giving me an enormous amount of trouble as well until I added in hallucinate and set up patrolling phoenix outside my base and around the map continuously to warn me of drops during the period where I was quite vulnerable (before 2/2). With warning, you can get your units in place a lot faster and mitigate a lot of the damage, or even scare the drops off. It uses a good amount of sentry energy, but if you don't scout a starport with your initial phoenix hallucinates you don't need to worry about it for a while.
Observer speed is great for this later on, but it comes out too late with this build.
Also: I find that a great mid-game transition is to stick on gateways, and skip colossi (I still get the robotics bay for warp prism and observer speed, which are underused but AMAZING upgrades), and get a dark shrine (you already have the twilight council). The DT's can be used for minor harassment, but more important, can pin your opponent to let you take your third. I like to get +shield upgrades as well after the first +1 armor in place of +2 weapons (never delay +2 armor) and then get +2 weapons/+3 armor then +3 weapons/+2 shields. Archons after getting +shield upgrades are absurdly strong when mixed in gateway armies against MMM: they soak so much damage to help protect your stalkers, and they get in there behind the chargelots which soak damage for the archons, letting them attack from just behind them (Archons do fantastic damage vs. the bioball if they get attacks off). Always make archons from DT's if you can, less gas cost. After watching Adelscott beat MVP, I've been doing a lot of experimenting with gateway units, and basically have come to the conclusion that a full gateway army with observer/warp prism support can beat any terran composition except pure mech, and mech is beaten without too much difficulty by adding on a few stargates for VR's and carriers later.
Doesn't matter what their bio composition is, whether they go heavy marines or maruaders, or get ghosts and even reapers (reapers do stupid amounts of dps -_-), gateway units can beat them. Gateway units also do great against heavy air play: archons and blink stalkers tear terran air units apart. Only thing that's given me trouble with air is heavy air upgrades on battlecruisers with ravens, but that's only been twice and I had never seen it before.
A few notes since I've been studying this build a lot recently.
Stuff like 70 Twilight Council and 90 Support Bay is pretty useless. Twilight comes at 50-70% 1/1 completion (like you said). Support Bay comes as soon as you have the gas for it after you start 2/2.
You should continue making probes until 70-80 and use your upgrade advantage to secure a third base. Tyler normally sticks to 3 gateways until he gets a third up. I personally like to push while expanding when 2/2 finishes (maybe when thermal lance finishes if a drop did damage).
You mentioned this in your post, but I just want to reiterate that your gas spending is what is key in this build. Early on you build sentries and a few stalkers. Once your forges are down you pretty much build 95%+ zealots and your gas goes into upgrades. Once 2/2 starts your gas moves to colossus tech/production and stalkers.
One last note: 2/2 is a stronger timing push than 1/1. When 1/1 finishes the terran can easily be 1/0. When 2/2 finishes the terran is probably only at 1/1, which is a bigger advantage. If you wait just a little longer for 2-3 colossi + range then it's an insanely strong timing.
On April 04 2011 16:44 noelsusman wrote: A few notes since I've been studying this build a lot recently.
Stuff like 70 Twilight Council and 90 Support Bay is pretty useless. Twilight comes at 50-70% 1/1 completion (like you said). Support Bay comes as soon as you have the gas for it after you start 2/2
Looks to me like my notes in the OP are more accurate; Tyler doesn't put the support down when he can afford it, he gets it right after 2-2 finished. He gets thermal lance and a clossus immediately as the support bay finishes, however. I imagine he just needed some more stalkers in his army at that specific time instead of a quicker support bay. A common mistake people have in copying build orders is to just get everything too quickly. Often times there are key delays where you just spend your money on probes, pylons, and your army.
Yes, the support bay should be coming later. A good way to look at it is the allocation of your gas.
+2/+2 upgrades and Twilight Council upgrades will consume a good amount of your gas. Colossus tech also consumes a good amount of your gas. Doing both at the same time will limit any other normal unit composition you will have. Beginning the Colossus tech after +2/+2 is done means that your gas expenditure is shifting from upgrades into Colossus tech. The Colossus tech isn't needed that early to be safe, and the units that you can get are far less limited when your gas isn't spread so thin.
I do feel as though food counts outside the opening aren't that useful. It seems like a bad way to learn the build since there will be too much of a fixation on achieving those numbers as opposed to adjusting to what the flow of the game dictates. I think relative timings are better than strict food counts at that point.
Another thing that I noticed is that in the OP you note that the first Cybernetics Core unit should be a Stalker, but a lot of the time I see Tyler get a Sentry first. Any thoughts on why you like one or the other better? As far as timings go, Sentry first delays Warpgate tech by a little bit and it's harder to kill the scouting SCV, but at the same time it feels a bit safer.
sentry first is often more popular if you are sure no reaper is coming or the distance is too far for a reaper to be troublesome anyway. Sentry first allows you to get the second assimilator earlier and means more energy on your sentry which is always useful and if the terran runs away his scv beforehand like they usually do it doesnt even matter you didn't get a stalker. With the correct build it doesn't delay warpgate tech either.
I just wanted to add to the op that, while Tyler certainly populorized and perfected this build , it was acutally hongunprime who first came up with the double forge idea :
There are quite a few differences : hongun did it of a 1gate expand and he chooses to go chargelots into HT's instead of colossi, but the main idea is pretty much exactly the same.
On April 04 2011 16:44 noelsusman wrote: A few notes since I've been studying this build a lot recently.
Stuff like 70 Twilight Council and 90 Support Bay is pretty useless. Twilight comes at 50-70% 1/1 completion (like you said). Support Bay comes as soon as you have the gas for it after you start 2/2
Looks to me like my notes in the OP are more accurate; Tyler doesn't put the support down when he can afford it, he gets it right after 2-2 finished. He gets thermal lance and a clossus immediately as the support bay finishes, however. I imagine he just needed some more stalkers in his army at that specific time instead of a quicker support bay. A common mistake people have in copying build orders is to just get everything too quickly. Often times there are key delays where you just spend your money on probes, pylons, and your army.
You're right (especially about copying build orders). I've seen him put down the support bay right after 2/2 was started, but I've also seen him wait until 2/2 is done like you said. It seems to be situational at that point. Getting the robo bay right when 2/2 is started is going to leave you with not much gas for additional stalkers, so I think waiting is probably better/safer now that I think about it.
On April 04 2011 16:44 noelsusman wrote: A few notes since I've been studying this build a lot recently.
Stuff like 70 Twilight Council and 90 Support Bay is pretty useless. Twilight comes at 50-70% 1/1 completion (like you said). Support Bay comes as soon as you have the gas for it after you start 2/2
Looks to me like my notes in the OP are more accurate; Tyler doesn't put the support down when he can afford it, he gets it right after 2-2 finished. He gets thermal lance and a clossus immediately as the support bay finishes, however. I imagine he just needed some more stalkers in his army at that specific time instead of a quicker support bay. A common mistake people have in copying build orders is to just get everything too quickly. Often times there are key delays where you just spend your money on probes, pylons, and your army.
I think your notes are missing a cybernetics core though ><
On April 04 2011 16:44 noelsusman wrote: A few notes since I've been studying this build a lot recently.
Stuff like 70 Twilight Council and 90 Support Bay is pretty useless. Twilight comes at 50-70% 1/1 completion (like you said). Support Bay comes as soon as you have the gas for it after you start 2/2
Looks to me like my notes in the OP are more accurate; Tyler doesn't put the support down when he can afford it, he gets it right after 2-2 finished. He gets thermal lance and a clossus immediately as the support bay finishes, however. I imagine he just needed some more stalkers in his army at that specific time instead of a quicker support bay. A common mistake people have in copying build orders is to just get everything too quickly. Often times there are key delays where you just spend your money on probes, pylons, and your army.
I think your notes are missing a cybernetics core though ><
Oya, sorry about that. That part is so obvious to me I didn't actually write it or the beginning part of my notes for myself; I added that on to post here. Make a core @100% Gateway ^_^
On April 04 2011 16:44 noelsusman wrote: A few notes since I've been studying this build a lot recently.
Stuff like 70 Twilight Council and 90 Support Bay is pretty useless. Twilight comes at 50-70% 1/1 completion (like you said). Support Bay comes as soon as you have the gas for it after you start 2/2
Looks to me like my notes in the OP are more accurate; Tyler doesn't put the support down when he can afford it, he gets it right after 2-2 finished. He gets thermal lance and a clossus immediately as the support bay finishes, however. I imagine he just needed some more stalkers in his army at that specific time instead of a quicker support bay. A common mistake people have in copying build orders is to just get everything too quickly. Often times there are key delays where you just spend your money on probes, pylons, and your army.
I think your notes are missing a cybernetics core though ><
Oya, sorry about that. That part is so obvious to me I didn't actually write it or the beginning part of my notes for myself; I added that on to post here. Make a core @100% Gateway ^_^
Haha I figured as much. I've been practicing your notes version of the build for an hour or two now and i have it down pretty much perfectly vs AI so I'm gonna ladder :D
the important thing is that you upgrade your armor.. the atk isn't nearly as important.. i seen videos of them european protosses like nani/hasu getting 1/3 and their army wrecks stuff
On April 10 2011 13:00 SlapMySalami wrote: the important thing is that you upgrade your armor.. the atk isn't nearly as important.. i seen videos of them european protosses like nani/hasu getting 1/3 and their army wrecks stuff
On April 10 2011 14:35 kzn wrote: Am I correct in the belief that pretty much any bio push that hits before your Colossi start to come out depends on you landing good forcefields?
No, that's only if you're relying on sentries. If you have good upgrades and a lot of units, you don't need force fields: i.e. AdelScott vs IMMVP.
However, you have to transition into some sort of area of effect unit once the Terran gets a large enough of a bio force, as a large ball of ranged units with healing capabilities (medivac) gets too hard for a mixture of ranged/melee units to crack. One way to mitigate this is to be actively trading armies with the Terran, while keeping your Stalkers alive (easily done if you have blink). Charge and blink + upgrades is a great and economy friendly way of delaying your AoE tech, though it is harder to pull off than simply building and a-moving colossi around.
Think of it this way: Charge, Blink, Upgrades, all three of these set you up for the late game by allowing lower-tier tech units to compete with higher-tier tech units. However, if you go straight to Colossus you use a higher-tier tech unit to combat the higher-tier tech of Ghosts and Medivacs, but you don't really have a good time to get in those upgrades early since Colossi take so many resources to make.
On April 10 2011 14:35 kzn wrote: Am I correct in the belief that pretty much any bio push that hits before your Colossi start to come out depends on you landing good forcefields?
No, that's only if you're relying on sentries. If you have good upgrades and a lot of units, you don't need force fields: i.e. AdelScott vs IMMVP.
However, you have to transition into some sort of area of effect unit once the Terran gets a large enough of a bio force, as a large ball of ranged units with healing capabilities (medivac) gets too hard for a mixture of ranged/melee units to crack. One way to mitigate this is to be actively trading armies with the Terran, while keeping your Stalkers alive (easily done if you have blink). Charge and blink + upgrades is a great and economy friendly way of delaying your AoE tech, though it is harder to pull off than simply building and a-moving colossi around.
Think of it this way: Charge, Blink, Upgrades, all three of these set you up for the late game by allowing lower-tier tech units to compete with higher-tier tech units. However, if you go straight to Colossus you use a higher-tier tech unit to combat the higher-tier tech of Ghosts and Medivacs, but you don't really have a good time to get in those upgrades early since Colossi take so many resources to make.
I'm curious about effectively trading armies this way. I'm trying to be a bit less dependent on colossus so they aren't showing up in 90%+ of my matches. I am under the impression that against bio with a strictly gateway army, sentries are quite important. I usually find it difficult to run the sentries away and keep them alive. It often means that I need to withdraw earlier and sacrifice zealots while my stalkers and sentries retreat. Is there as large a need for sentries in the mid game if one is aiming to get all these upgrades? I'd imagine with charge, forcefields aren't as required to stop kiting, but it's still not as effective and blinking away is not much of an option if I'm babysitting sentries.
Do you suggest leaving out sentries once the upgrades kick in a bit more and templar/colossus aren't out yet? Or should one be more committed to babysitting the sentries.
On April 10 2011 14:35 kzn wrote: Am I correct in the belief that pretty much any bio push that hits before your Colossi start to come out depends on you landing good forcefields?
No, that's only if you're relying on sentries. If you have good upgrades and a lot of units, you don't need force fields: i.e. AdelScott vs IMMVP.
However, you have to transition into some sort of area of effect unit once the Terran gets a large enough of a bio force, as a large ball of ranged units with healing capabilities (medivac) gets too hard for a mixture of ranged/melee units to crack. One way to mitigate this is to be actively trading armies with the Terran, while keeping your Stalkers alive (easily done if you have blink). Charge and blink + upgrades is a great and economy friendly way of delaying your AoE tech, though it is harder to pull off than simply building and a-moving colossi around.
Think of it this way: Charge, Blink, Upgrades, all three of these set you up for the late game by allowing lower-tier tech units to compete with higher-tier tech units. However, if you go straight to Colossus you use a higher-tier tech unit to combat the higher-tier tech of Ghosts and Medivacs, but you don't really have a good time to get in those upgrades early since Colossi take so many resources to make.
I'm curious about effectively trading armies this way. I'm trying to be a bit less dependent on colossus so they aren't showing up in 90%+ of my matches. I am under the impression that against bio with a strictly gateway army, sentries are quite important. I usually find it difficult to run the sentries away and keep them alive. It often means that I need to withdraw earlier and sacrifice zealots while my stalkers and sentries retreat. Is there as large a need for sentries in the mid game if one is aiming to get all these upgrades? I'd imagine with charge, forcefields aren't as required to stop kiting, but it's still not as effective and blinking away is not much of an option if I'm babysitting sentries.
Do you suggest leaving out sentries once the upgrades kick in a bit more and templar/colossus aren't out yet? Or should one be more committed to babysitting the sentries.
You only need the sentries if you're going for a big 6 gate bust of perhaps early colo (FF good for preventing bio from running up and/or around and sniping them). So really if you're going heavy bio you should have very religiously chronoboosted armor, and optionally attack as well. You only want 1-2 sentries at a time for the sole purpose of guardian shield.
And charge isn't very important. You should be getting blink very fast, as your twilight finishes (which should be placed at 50% completion of first round of upgrades). You need blink to keep your stalkers alive.
You're questions would be answered much better if you go watch AdelScott vs IMMVP on youtube from TSL 3.
On April 10 2011 14:35 kzn wrote: Am I correct in the belief that pretty much any bio push that hits before your Colossi start to come out depends on you landing good forcefields?
No, that's only if you're relying on sentries. If you have good upgrades and a lot of units, you don't need force fields: i.e. AdelScott vs IMMVP.
However, you have to transition into some sort of area of effect unit once the Terran gets a large enough of a bio force, as a large ball of ranged units with healing capabilities (medivac) gets too hard for a mixture of ranged/melee units to crack. One way to mitigate this is to be actively trading armies with the Terran, while keeping your Stalkers alive (easily done if you have blink). Charge and blink + upgrades is a great and economy friendly way of delaying your AoE tech, though it is harder to pull off than simply building and a-moving colossi around.
Think of it this way: Charge, Blink, Upgrades, all three of these set you up for the late game by allowing lower-tier tech units to compete with higher-tier tech units. However, if you go straight to Colossus you use a higher-tier tech unit to combat the higher-tier tech of Ghosts and Medivacs, but you don't really have a good time to get in those upgrades early since Colossi take so many resources to make.
Going Nexus first for AdelScott and getting away with it really changed that game though, if you could get away with it then sure you might have the units to defend without Forcefield, but if you go regular 3gate expand or 1gate, I doubt you could ever hold off a mid game timing without good use of forcefields.
Watching AdelScott vs IMMVP, it seems that AdelScott doesn't forgo sentries. He did have something like 5 sentries at the first push. Looks like once the upgrades kick in, 1-2 sentries are sufficient.
On April 10 2011 15:44 To3-Knee wrote: Watching AdelScott vs IMMVP, it seems that AdelScott doesn't forgo sentries. He did have something like 5 sentries at the first push. Looks like once the upgrades kick in, 1-2 sentries are sufficient.
BTW, thanks CecilSunkure.
More like once charge/blink kicks in, 1-2 sentries are sufficient. Think about it this way: without charge/blink, there's no way you can prevent getting kited infinitely. But once you have charge/blink, the chargelots will charge onto the ball, forcing the terran to start moving immediately. Then you can blink afterwards, making full use of all your stalker-dps. It changes once you add colossi, you want to trap a good amount of bio to make use of the splash. But with chargelots/blink-stalkers, forcefields are more likely go work against you.
Adel vs MVP is indeed the perfect example as to how to structure your army-composition according to the flow of the game. This made even the sometimes bad macro obsolete.
Thanks alot Cecil! I personally find this build excellent and it's become my new "standard" build vs terran. Your gateway units feel absolutely baller and i've yet to lose a game when the build played out how it should. Tyty
how do people feel about skipping colossi in favor of twilight council upgs? make the 5 gates faster instead of the thermal lance / colossi / robo bay.... the opportunity cost being, for the first colossus, 5 zealots and 6 sentries.. you could have nearly twice the army size going 5 gate first
then get the robo bay after. the timing is a little bit more favorable / flexible to a variety of terran timings, like a hypothetical expansion in response to low aggressionm etc.
On April 10 2011 15:44 To3-Knee wrote: Watching AdelScott vs IMMVP, it seems that AdelScott doesn't forgo sentries. He did have something like 5 sentries at the first push. Looks like once the upgrades kick in, 1-2 sentries are sufficient.
BTW, thanks CecilSunkure.
More like once charge/blink kicks in, 1-2 sentries are sufficient. Think about it this way: without charge/blink, there's no way you can prevent getting kited infinitely. But once you have charge/blink, the chargelots will charge onto the ball, forcing the terran to start moving immediately. Then you can blink afterwards, making full use of all your stalker-dps. It changes once you add colossi, you want to trap a good amount of bio to make use of the splash. But with chargelots/blink-stalkers, forcefields are more likely go work against you.
Adel vs MVP is indeed the perfect example as to how to structure your army-composition according to the flow of the game. This made even the sometimes bad macro obsolete.
Exactly! Once you have the twilight council upgrades to deal with kiting, you don't need as many force fields any more. This is also the reason why templar transitions tend to coincide with these upgrades; fewer sentries means you free up gas for templars.
Can I just clarify some things about the flow of the build? - Do you research +2/+2 upgrades, blink AND charge AND get 3 Colossus all off 2 bases? I might be reading this wrong but it sounds like heaps to afford on 2 bases. - The build order mentions a 5th gateway in the OP. Is the 5th gateway just to fill in the 'resource gap' because the normal 2 base can support 4 gateways and 1 robo building colossus continually.
On April 28 2011 14:22 Techno wrote: How can I know theres 2 forges without actually scanning them?
They are going to go down pretty early and the Toss will be both very defensive and cautious, as they can't afford to trounce around the map until at least 1/1 is done. The cost of the forges, upgrades, and the Twilight cut into unit count pretty hard, so there will also be not so many units as usual. Also, there shouldn't be much of any sign the Toss is going to take a third until 2/2 is done. You can also know there are two forge once 1/1 is finished super early by clicking on an enemy unit.
On April 28 2011 14:27 CecilSunkure wrote: The cost of the forges, upgrades, and the Twilight cut into unit count pretty hard, so there will also be not so many units as usual. Also, there shouldn't be much of any sign the Toss is going to take a third until 2/2 is done.
Hmm...I'm not sure if I agree with you on that.
Imo everything depends on whether or not the toss plays with a robo. People have started to figure out possible cloak timings better and better, which means they either add the robo very late "just-in-case" or just...well....not at all. Especially Adel forgoes the robo completely on a regular basis, though I won't recommend copying him on this since he ALSO does it blindly now and then.
Nevertheless with a 3 gate aggressive expand it's normally possible to delay the robo up to a point where you'll know if you need it at all. I'm even playing more and more with a very late 2nd gas and take only one sentry for shield...trading some zealots for scv-mining time when they repair bunkers. Without a robo and without an observer (including less minerals spent on assimilators and more probes mining minerals early) the double forge doesn't cut "that" heavily into unit count. If you say twilight council then I say robo bay + thermal lance. Meaning, if the toss goes for colossi he will spend approximately the same amount of ressources for colossus tech as a double forge player spends for TC + further tech.
Depending on the playstyle of the terran I found that I can take my third even earlier than when "waiting" for the colossi, since units can be split up more easily to defend against drops. This early heavy expo style has recently been done by Alicia, who even forgoes the early attack upgrades completely to get more armor-upgraded units (chargelots in particular) out.
Ok, this has become a way too long response....all that I originally wanted to say is, that a double forge player (or single forge fast armor upgraded chargelots) is actually very hard to scout if the toss cuts the robotics tech completely until the third is up. Imo this is the crucial point, building a reaper is essential if the scan doesn't see anything. The terran should be able to find at least either the robo or the forge(s).
On April 28 2011 14:27 CecilSunkure wrote: The cost of the forges, upgrades, and the Twilight cut into unit count pretty hard, so there will also be not so many units as usual. Also, there shouldn't be much of any sign the Toss is going to take a third until 2/2 is done.
Ok, this has become a way too long response....all that I originally wanted to say is, that a double forge player (or single forge fast armor upgraded chargelots) is actually very hard to scout if the toss cuts the robotics tech completely until the third is up. Imo this is the crucial point, building a reaper is essential if the scan doesn't see anything. The terran should be able to find at least either the robo or the forge(s).
Yeah I agree with that, but I thought we were assuming a robo was going down because the OP is copying Tyler, which placed a robo.
On April 28 2011 14:27 CecilSunkure wrote: The cost of the forges, upgrades, and the Twilight cut into unit count pretty hard, so there will also be not so many units as usual. Also, there shouldn't be much of any sign the Toss is going to take a third until 2/2 is done.
Ok, this has become a way too long response....all that I originally wanted to say is, that a double forge player (or single forge fast armor upgraded chargelots) is actually very hard to scout if the toss cuts the robotics tech completely until the third is up. Imo this is the crucial point, building a reaper is essential if the scan doesn't see anything. The terran should be able to find at least either the robo or the forge(s).
Yeah I agree with that, but I thought we were assuming a robo was going down because the OP is copying Tyler, which placed a robo.
You are right, indeed I was talking more about a double forge play "in general".
Tyler's style actually is super defensive due to the vast amount of ressources that go into tech that early. Nevertheless (I think I don't spoiler anyone at this point anymore) as we could see in TSL it's "too safe" and I haven't seen anyone using this exact BO for a pretty long time. Nowadays good terrans take advantage of the protoss behind on economy AND being unable to pressure (which would be the case with a straight 3 gate).
Going double forge heavy aggression with +1/1, or going into early third with +0/1 - both while teching charge and +2 armor - seems to be the better way to go. On big maps though everything changes again with one gate FE being perfectly safe. However, everybody seems to just be figuring out how to transition into forge play properly after a one gate FE, the large maps are simply way too "new" to make any final comments on the best way to go there I suppose.
On April 28 2011 14:22 Techno wrote: How can I know theres 2 forges without actually scanning them?
They are going to go down pretty early and the Toss will be both very defensive and cautious, as they can't afford to trounce around the map until at least 1/1 is done. The cost of the forges, upgrades, and the Twilight cut into unit count pretty hard, so there will also be not so many units as usual. Also, there shouldn't be much of any sign the Toss is going to take a third until 2/2 is done. You can also know there are two forge once 1/1 is finished super early by clicking on an enemy unit.
During the period between putting down my 3rd gate/expanding, and then putting down the Twilight Council, i find that i never have enough resources to fully support producing gateway units (mainly zealots).
Is anyone else finding this problem being strapped for cash during this period?
On April 28 2011 14:22 Techno wrote: How can I know theres 2 forges without actually scanning them?
They are going to go down pretty early and the Toss will be both very defensive and cautious, as they can't afford to trounce around the map until at least 1/1 is done. The cost of the forges, upgrades, and the Twilight cut into unit count pretty hard, so there will also be not so many units as usual. Also, there shouldn't be much of any sign the Toss is going to take a third until 2/2 is done. You can also know there are two forge once 1/1 is finished super early by clicking on an enemy unit.
During the period between putting down my 3rd gate/expanding, and then putting down the Twilight Council, i find that i never have enough resources to fully support producing gateway units (mainly zealots).
Is anyone else finding this problem being strapped for cash during this period?
On April 28 2011 14:22 Techno wrote: How can I know theres 2 forges without actually scanning them?
They are going to go down pretty early and the Toss will be both very defensive and cautious, as they can't afford to trounce around the map until at least 1/1 is done. The cost of the forges, upgrades, and the Twilight cut into unit count pretty hard, so there will also be not so many units as usual. Also, there shouldn't be much of any sign the Toss is going to take a third until 2/2 is done. You can also know there are two forge once 1/1 is finished super early by clicking on an enemy unit.
During the period between putting down my 3rd gate/expanding, and then putting down the Twilight Council, i find that i never have enough resources to fully support producing gateway units (mainly zealots).
Is anyone else finding this problem being strapped for cash during this period?
Any thoughts TL??
Take a later 4th gas. With double forge gateway style you really don't need as much gas as normal.
On April 28 2011 14:22 Techno wrote: How can I know theres 2 forges without actually scanning them?
They are going to go down pretty early and the Toss will be both very defensive and cautious, as they can't afford to trounce around the map until at least 1/1 is done. The cost of the forges, upgrades, and the Twilight cut into unit count pretty hard, so there will also be not so many units as usual. Also, there shouldn't be much of any sign the Toss is going to take a third until 2/2 is done. You can also know there are two forge once 1/1 is finished super early by clicking on an enemy unit.
During the period between putting down my 3rd gate/expanding, and then putting down the Twilight Council, i find that i never have enough resources to fully support producing gateway units (mainly zealots).
Is anyone else finding this problem being strapped for cash during this period?
Any thoughts TL??
Take a later 4th gas. With double forge gateway style you really don't need as much gas as normal.
Thanks!! I probably should have asked this first actually - am I supposed to be constantly producing Gateway units while expanding and getting the forge upgrades and colossus tech? I looked at the egincontrol vs fenix replay and noticed incontrol didnt really produce gateway units continuously?? Or did I see wrong?
On April 28 2011 14:22 Techno wrote: How can I know theres 2 forges without actually scanning them?
They are going to go down pretty early and the Toss will be both very defensive and cautious, as they can't afford to trounce around the map until at least 1/1 is done. The cost of the forges, upgrades, and the Twilight cut into unit count pretty hard, so there will also be not so many units as usual. Also, there shouldn't be much of any sign the Toss is going to take a third until 2/2 is done. You can also know there are two forge once 1/1 is finished super early by clicking on an enemy unit.
During the period between putting down my 3rd gate/expanding, and then putting down the Twilight Council, i find that i never have enough resources to fully support producing gateway units (mainly zealots).
Is anyone else finding this problem being strapped for cash during this period?
Any thoughts TL??
Take a later 4th gas. With double forge gateway style you really don't need as much gas as normal.
Thanks!! I probably should have asked this first actually - am I supposed to be constantly producing Gateway units while expanding and getting the forge upgrades and colossus tech? I looked at the egincontrol vs fenix replay and noticed incontrol didnt really produce gateway units continuously?? Or did I see wrong?
On April 28 2011 14:27 CecilSunkure wrote: The cost of the forges, upgrades, and the Twilight cut into unit count pretty hard, so there will also be not so many units as usual. Also, there shouldn't be much of any sign the Toss is going to take a third until 2/2 is done.
Ok, this has become a way too long response....all that I originally wanted to say is, that a double forge player (or single forge fast armor upgraded chargelots) is actually very hard to scout if the toss cuts the robotics tech completely until the third is up. Imo this is the crucial point, building a reaper is essential if the scan doesn't see anything. The terran should be able to find at least either the robo or the forge(s).
Yeah I agree with that, but I thought we were assuming a robo was going down because the OP is copying Tyler, which placed a robo.
You are right, indeed I was talking more about a double forge play "in general".
Tyler's style actually is super defensive due to the vast amount of ressources that go into tech that early. Nevertheless (I think I don't spoiler anyone at this point anymore) as we could see in TSL it's "too safe" and I haven't seen anyone using this exact BO for a pretty long time. Nowadays good terrans take advantage of the protoss behind on economy AND being unable to pressure (which would be the case with a straight 3 gate).
Going double forge heavy aggression with +1/1, or going into early third with +0/1 - both while teching charge and +2 armor - seems to be the better way to go. On big maps though everything changes again with one gate FE being perfectly safe. However, everybody seems to just be figuring out how to transition into forge play properly after a one gate FE, the large maps are simply way too "new" to make any final comments on the best way to go there I suppose.
On August 25 2011 06:58 acgFork wrote: is this build still good?
Since the discovery of ghosts and upgrades for Terran, as well as the 1 rax expand being standard, I dpnt think this build is viable anymore. I think it will also lose to the 1-1-1 (3 gate robo opener in general, ovi no one is gonna place 2 forges when seeing 1 base Terran).
Double forge is pretty much standard if you aren't using a colossus-based army right now. Most robo compositions have 1 forge but if you're going heavy gateways units with optional immortals, you NEED double upgrades or else you're relying too heavily on ALWAYS getting good storms which is NOT going to happen against good terran players. But yeah that style is pretty terrible against 1/1/1 types of plays simply because you don't have enough stuff even if you get your +1/+1 in time.
On August 25 2011 07:04 Micket wrote: Since the discovery of ghosts and upgrades for Terran, as well as the 1 rax expand being standard, I dpnt think this build is viable anymore. I think it will also lose to the 1-1-1 (3 gate robo opener in general, ovi no one is gonna place 2 forges when seeing 1 base Terran).
2G robo >>>>>>> 1-1-1
Robo Build Order: Observer, immortal, Warp Prism, Immortals >>>>> Can add 3rd gate to 'go all-in'
Poke his front with stalker + immortal +1 sentry with observer. Observer goes home before 7:30. leave 1 or 2 stalkers at home. I leave 1, and buy time for warp ins to kill banshee.
Keep poking - wait for warp prism, immortal micro. You can reactively do this on non-large maps, with observer first from Robo.
If he uses banshee's for defense, you should not try to totally kill him, just keep applying pressure till siege mode. He has nothing to kill your warp prism (WP is faster than marines).
So basically, you can open 2Gate Robo, and if you scout 1-1-1, you can 1 base him back. If he's going macro mode, you can go into tyler's 2x forge.
On August 25 2011 07:04 Micket wrote: Since the discovery of ghosts and upgrades for Terran, as well as the 1 rax expand being standard, I dpnt think this build is viable anymore. I think it will also lose to the 1-1-1 (3 gate robo opener in general, ovi no one is gonna place 2 forges when seeing 1 base Terran).
2G robo >>>>>>> 1-1-1
Robo Build Order: Observer, immortal, Warp Prism, Immortals >>>>> Can add 3rd gate to 'go all-in'
Poke his front with stalker + immortal +1 sentry with observer. Observer goes home before 7:30. leave 1 or 2 stalkers at home. I leave 1, and buy time for warp ins to kill banshee.
Keep poking - wait for warp prism, immortal micro. You can reactively do this on non-large maps, with observer first from Robo.
If he uses banshee's for defense, you should not try to totally kill him, just keep applying pressure till siege mode. He has nothing to kill your warp prism (WP is faster than marines).
So basically, you can open 2Gate Robo, and if you scout 1-1-1, you can 1 base him back. If he's going macro mode, you can go into tyler's 2x forge.
This thread isn't even remotely related to 2gate robo vs 1-1-1....
On September 30 2011 09:00 entaro1688 wrote: anyone has the BO 4 creator's double forge play in the GSTL where he 3-0 T?
it's very similar to Trusty's post, just watch the VODs if you paid for them. i wasn't really paying attention to his robo timing and i didn't pay for VODs so i'm not entirely sure how he played against + Show Spoiler +
the 1-1-1 feint in the last game
i find it amusing that FabledIntegral says it's not relevent when actually validating its use against common terran builds is honestly the only relevent thing you can post in this thread at this point. to not be able to explain why a varation of this works against a build that owns most protoss builds means this build is useless, but as CreatorPrime showed, there is some merit to Tyler's build with good reactions via scouting.
On September 30 2011 09:00 entaro1688 wrote: anyone has the BO 4 creator's double forge play in the GSTL where he 3-0 T?
it's very similar to Trusty's post, just watch the VODs if you paid for them. i wasn't really paying attention to his robo timing and i didn't pay for VODs so i'm not entirely sure how he played against + Show Spoiler +
the 1-1-1 feint in the last game
Against Clide (Taldarim) and Heart (Belsir), Creator went 1-gate expand with 1 gas, getting zealot + 3 stalkers (chronoed) from the gateway, with a 30 nexus, than building two more gates and assimilator. The robo was thrown when the nexus was about to complete, along with another gate, than two more assimilators.
Against Alive (Crossfire), he got a second gas after Core and trained two sentries from the gateway. Also 30 nexus, followed by robo before extra gates. When he scouted the ghosts, he immediately placed a cannon in front of the natural.
He would always poke with zealot, stalker and probe and build 2-3 obsevers (after that, the robo would pump almost constant imortals, when opp had bio play).
In all games, the double forge started at around 8 min (+-30s, based on scouting), after he had taken all 4 gas and had 4 sentries. Constant chrono until 2-2, than 3-3 when he was safe. Blink before Charge, probably to help against drops as he would have less untis than usual with that style. He started teching to Colossus before attempting a third, if I remember right. His third was later than you usually see, but that might be game dependant. Another cool thing was that later on he would get Archives, but not bother to research storm.
It seems that good scouting is very important to figure the exact time to double forge and get extra gases. The scary ghost timing push, that usually crushes this kind of build, was nullified by good army spread and good scouting that led to an immediate cannon.
Buying GSTL ticket is totally worth it, all matches have being amazing and there is a lot to learn.
On September 30 2011 09:00 entaro1688 wrote: anyone has the BO 4 creator's double forge play in the GSTL where he 3-0 T?
it's very similar to Trusty's post, just watch the VODs if you paid for them. i wasn't really paying attention to his robo timing and i didn't pay for VODs so i'm not entirely sure how he played against + Show Spoiler +
the 1-1-1 feint in the last game
Against Clide (Taldarim) and Heart (Belsir), Creator went 1-gate expand with 1 gas, getting zealot + 3 stalkers (chronoed) from the gateway, with a 30 nexus, than building two more gates and assimilator. The robo was thrown when the nexus was about to complete, along with another gate, than two more assimilators.
Against Alive (Crossfire), he got a second gas after Core and trained two sentries from the gateway. Also 30 nexus, followed by robo before extra gates. When he scouted the ghosts, he immediately placed a cannon in front of the natural.
He would always poke with zealot, stalker and probe and build 2-3 obsevers (after that, the robo would pump almost constant imortals, when opp had bio play).
In all games, the double forge started at around 8 min (+-30s, based on scouting), after he had taken all 4 gas and had 4 sentries. Constant chrono until 2-2, than 3-3 when he was safe. Blink before Charge, probably to help against drops as he would have less untis than usual with that style. He started teching to Colossus before attempting a third, if I remember right. His third was later than you usually see, but that might be game dependant. Another cool thing was that later on he would get Archives, but not bother to research storm.
It seems that good scouting is very important to figure the exact time to double forge and get extra gases. The scary ghost timing push, that usually crushes this kind of build, was nullified by good army spread and good scouting that led to an immediate cannon.
Buying GSTL ticket is totally worth it, all matches have being amazing and there is a lot to learn.
EPT
i've been messing with stuff like this, but having a more direct list of how tyler is doing it is nice and would help people who haven't tried it before. 
