EPTWonderful post though!
[G]TLAF-Liquid`Tyler's Double Forge PvT - Page 2
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Atlare
Australia893 Posts
Wonderful post though! | ||
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Xanczor
United States254 Posts
On March 30 2011 08:59 lim1017 wrote: As much as I love tyer he did not create the double forge build. He may have popularized it or perfected it, but the first time I saw double forge was in gsl. IT was hong un prime playing vs a terran (I forget the nane). On stog incontrol and tyler were discussing it still unsure how viable it was Ur wrong. Think logically, tyler is the one who makes funky builds, koreans just practice mechanics and refine standard play to perfection, so it is highly unlikely that hongun created double forge | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On March 30 2011 10:40 Retgery wrote: How well does it work, if you do the 2 forges after a kcdc FE? If you don't die, better. Earlier expansion = better. On March 30 2011 12:06 Xanczor wrote: Ur wrong. Think logically, tyler is the one who makes funky builds, koreans just practice mechanics and refine standard play to perfection, so it is highly unlikely that hongun created double forge Nah Hongun actually did. | ||
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lim1017
Canada1278 Posts
On March 30 2011 12:06 Xanczor wrote: Ur wrong. Think logically, tyler is the one who makes funky builds, koreans just practice mechanics and refine standard play to perfection, so it is highly unlikely that hongun created double forge So you basically just called me out and said I was wrong, based on what you thought likely happened... | ||
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Cow
Canada1104 Posts
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K1LL
Australia34 Posts
my last 3 games vs P were against this build =/ cant seem to beat it | ||
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
So many times ive seen the armies and just thought. ive lost. Then cos of 2-2 or 3-3 upgrades i win battles i would norm NEVER have won. | ||
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
Haha <3 This in a nutshell. The greedier you play, the more efficient the double forge becomes. FE into double forge is probably the greediest opening available for PvT right now (well, you could even think about going straight colossi too, but this would just be straight up crazy). I love double forge play, I've investigated this playstyle since HongUn owned with it in the memorable game on Metalopolis vs Rain. (don't want to go into who invented it; this is still the match where I saw it first). What I want to emphazise is its enormous FLEXIBILITY. It was also mentioned in the OP: On March 30 2011 06:37 iamke55 wrote: Variations You can skip the Robotics Bay and just mass Gateway units while getting charge/blink and +3/+3 upgrades. You add a 2nd Robotics Facility for Colossi once you have 3 bases running. Doing this and adding Immortals is pretty strong against 1/1/1 expand builds. You can go double Forge from any opening as long as your opponent isn’t doing a 1 base all-in, so 2 Gate Robo, 3 Gate openers, and 1 Gate Nexus can all work. Personally I prefer getting a faster third while teching to templars and adding colossi at the same time after charge/blink is done. If you manage to not get your stalkers killed, then you can sink all your minerals in chargelots and have the spare gas to tech. Also I've recently started to 3 gate expo more on the smaller maps, and double forge play works amazingly well off a contain. Simply because the biggest threat (if you are not facing banshees...) are medivacs. Both elevators and drops. Going double forge feels very "natural" after a 3 gate opening since you get many gateway units early anyways. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
On March 30 2011 07:19 Markwerf wrote: Good strat. I especially think this is strong on bigger maps with some more space between the expansions. The traditional colossus style can be exploited by good terrans on those maps because multiple drops are really problematic to defend with colossi, you simply can't split up armies with colossi as well as pure gateway armies. Upgraded warpins are also much better of course. A key thing in this strat is getting blink in time imo as that really is key to be able to stop kiting and drops, which can often make it possible to get a quick third which is the real strength of this strategy imo. Especially as gas #3 and #4 aren't really needed often with this build you can really get that third base quickly to get that mineral economy going well. I'm really wondering myself if somehow the early robo can't be cut completely from this build. It is quite an expensive building and all it is used for is observers and the potential to create quick immortals/colossi if needed. Most of the time it is just sitting there doing nothing. I wonder if you're going forges anyway if cannons couldn't be just as adequate in case you need to defend various all-ins or banshee cloak harass. A cannon near the nexus can both serve as defense for the expo and provide detection against cloak while a second cannon can be made at the home base if needed in the rare case they go banshee. 2 cannons is still cheaper then a robo for example. I agree with Markwerf, is it possible to skip the robo? As I terran, a 3 gate expand with aggressive contain is very scary. (AFAIK you need the three quick gates to set up the contain, 1 gate robo --> 3 gates won't be as effective). Because you stay on upgraded gateway units for longer you can afford to expo more aggressively behind the contain, and the terran would feel like he's playing from behind the whole game. As an aside, many players have now shown that upgraded gateways units do not lose to MMM in a straight up fight at all (Tyler, Adelscot...). Maybe this is the end of the "gateway units sucks" whining that is so prevalent in these forums? (Just witness the 1.3 balance threads). This is a really solid style so there's no direct counter as a Terran. Since the 3 gate robo results in somewhat of a delayed expansion, perhaps the Terran could expand more aggressively and macro, trying to keep pace with upgrades? | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On March 30 2011 17:21 Dommk wrote: I like TT1's style better. One forge for fast Armor upgrades then add the second when you are comfortable, 1 less forge and upgrade early game really helps in surviving early pressure, especially against 1 basing Terran. to be honest, you shouldn't be able to make use of upgrades before a 1 basing terran hits you. If you are somehow uprading while a 1base terran is on the way, you might as well cancel it. In this build, the forges usually go down at ~7:30 which is pretty much the earliest you can actually support upgrades as toss. you might be able to get the upgrade by the time the terran all-in hits you if it's one of those 1/1/2 or 2/1/1 banshee/raven/tank/marine things but you are 99% of the time better off forgoing the forge and opting for units for survival instead. amazing OP btw sorry i didn't get back to you i have been very busy this week and haven't been able to contribute too much in terms of guides. like you even need me anyway looking at this thread!! gj | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
On March 30 2011 17:32 Alejandrisha wrote: to be honest, you shouldn't be able to make use of upgrades before a 1 basing terran hits you. If you are somehow uprading while a 1base terran is on the way, you might as well cancel it. In this build, the forges usually go down at ~7:30 which is pretty much the earliest you can actually support upgrades as toss. you might be able to get the upgrade by the time the terran all-in hits you if it's one of those 1/1/2 or 2/1/1 banshee/raven/tank/marine things but you are 99% of the time better off forgoing the forge and opting for units for survival instead. amazing OP btw sorry i didn't get back to you i have been very busy this week and haven't been able to contribute too much in terms of guides. like you even need me anyway looking at this thread!! gj Not neccessarily. It's strongly dependant on his composition - if he is marine heavy for dps, the armor upgrade will work wonders here. He probably won't have a ghost with him so you'll be able to use GS. That means the +1 armor will reduce marine dps by 50% from 3 to 2 per shot. I'd say that's worth a lot more than the extra stalker you might be able to squeeze out by cancelling the upgrade. | ||
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Xpres
France10 Posts
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Aui_2000
Canada435 Posts
On March 30 2011 17:32 Alejandrisha wrote: to be honest, you shouldn't be able to make use of upgrades before a 1 basing terran hits you. If you are somehow uprading while a 1base terran is on the way, you might as well cancel it. In this build, the forges usually go down at ~7:30 which is pretty much the earliest you can actually support upgrades as toss. you might be able to get the upgrade by the time the terran all-in hits you if it's one of those 1/1/2 or 2/1/1 banshee/raven/tank/marine things but you are 99% of the time better off forgoing the forge and opting for units for survival instead. amazing OP btw sorry i didn't get back to you i have been very busy this week and haven't been able to contribute too much in terms of guides. like you even need me anyway looking at this thread!! gj ive been playing double forge for like 5 months now and my first +1 armor finishes at like 8 minutes which is more than soon enough for any of the threatening Terran all ins (i don't consider 3 rax threatening to 1-3 gate fe). 50 marine hits to kill a zealot is really awesome against all ins | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On March 30 2011 19:05 Validity wrote: ive been playing double forge for like 5 months now and my first +1 armor finishes at like 8 minutes which is more than soon enough for any of the threatening Terran all ins (i don't consider 3 rax threatening to 1-3 gate fe). 50 marine hits to kill a zealot is really awesome against all ins That's way fast, you would have to get your forge at 5 minutes, so i guess you go 1gate exp and then get a single forge? | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On March 30 2011 16:34 K1LL wrote: Can anyone give me some advice on how to beat this build? my last 3 games vs P were against this build =/ cant seem to beat it Supposing you're playing bio the correct response to this is simply to go double engineering bay yourself when you see the forges or at least upgrade attack quickly. +1 attack on infantry is actually better then +1 armor for warpgate units because shields will go down quicker, your marauders also gain +2 per upgrade, only your vikings don't benefit from upgrades but their high base damage (14) means that colossus armor doesn't affect them that much. You can't upgrade as quickly as toss but if you throw down double engineering bay when you see double forge you can be on 1/1 when toss is 2/2 and 2/2 when toss is 3/3 so you'll be fine. Because you don't have to make vikings as early against this build you should have the resources to do this. Timing attacks just before 1/1 finishes can also be quite strong. But the robo variations of this build will usually be able to adept quite well to that by simply going forges a bit later. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On March 30 2011 17:32 Alejandrisha wrote: to be honest, you shouldn't be able to make use of upgrades before a 1 basing terran hits you. If you are somehow uprading while a 1base terran is on the way, you might as well cancel it. In this build, the forges usually go down at ~7:30 which is pretty much the earliest you can actually support upgrades as toss. you might be able to get the upgrade by the time the terran all-in hits you if it's one of those 1/1/2 or 2/1/1 banshee/raven/tank/marine things but you are 99% of the time better off forgoing the forge and opting for units for survival instead. amazing OP btw sorry i didn't get back to you i have been very busy this week and haven't been able to contribute too much in terms of guides. like you even need me anyway looking at this thread!! gj This is off a fast expand. The build that TT1 does has a forge up pretty quickly, so +1 armor is done before any kind of all-in hits (except maybe 3rax, but 3rax is holdable if it isn't close position, and who fast expands vs a Terran in close positions anyway) | ||
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Lochat
United States270 Posts
Marauders with +1 attack actually kill a +2armor stalkers faster than +0/+0, since they will be doing 22/19 damage due to +2 damage against armor per upgrade, compared to the 0/0 of 20 to shields per shot and 19 damage to armor per shot. Stalkers also are the T1 unit that scales worst with +attack upgrades in the game, and arguably in the entire game. Zealots fare slightly better, since they have 100 HPs and 50 shields, and get +1 on two attacks -- if they can actually hit stuff. The real bonus to double forge is that timing where you get +1/+1 and Terran has +0/+0, otherwise a proper double engineering bay counter to double forge means the Terran is ahead at all times, since. Honestly, Protoss units scale so poorly with upgrades that being +2/+2 against a Terran +1/1 makes you simply break even, if even that. Double forge is extremely powerful when getting higher tech units, but for pure gateway units it's not nearly as a big of a bonus as people believe, unless the Terran doesn't properly respond with his own upgrades. | ||
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