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Stable PvP: Two Gate Safe FE

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Stable PvP: Two Gate Safe FE

Text byTL Strategy
Graphics byNaganis
September 18th, 2013 21:21 GMT

(Wiki)Liquipedia

Contents



Introduction

Early Game

Defending Pressure

Variations

Transitions

FAQs

Introduction


Protoss vs. Protoss was one of the more controversial matchups in Wings of Liberty. From the days of nothing but four gates to the period of gigantic colossus vs. colossus wars, many people scorned Protoss vs. Protoss as the most boring and stale matchup in the game. However in Heart of the Swarm, it quickly became one of the more stable and solid matchups. With the addition of the mothership core and the viability of non-robo builds, Protoss players are safer and more flexible than they have been in the past, allowing for a huge variety of openings and builds that had previously proven impossible. Among these builds, fast expands have emerged.

One-gate expands were originally the standard for Protoss vs. Protoss fast expands, but many of them started to get punished heavily by pressure builds and all-in timings. As a result, many Protoss players have begun to expand off of two gateways instead; this variation allows a player to safely take a nexus at a reasonable time, while creating a catch-all and reactionary defense in order to transition into a stable mid game.

This guide covers a variation of the two-gate robo build that gets a nexus before robo while being safe from virtually all pressure through the use of forcefields and photon overcharge. This guide will also cover how to scout and respond to common pressure and tech plays, as well as how to transition into the mid game safely. Although less economical than some other expands, this build withstands all forms of pressure. The combination of a sentry first and MSC allows you to get away with minimal scouting while still getting a safe expansion and transitioning through robo play. For players who are just starting to get a grip on macro games and how to play PvP, this is a go-to build because of its ease and stability: glhf!

Quick Note on Replays: All linked games link to VODs. If a game is marked with a replay icon (Vod), it can be found in the replay pack here:
Vod Replay Pack



Early Game


  • 9 pylon (Chronoboost x3 on nexus)
  • 13 gate
  • 15 double gas (3 on each gas)
  • 17 pylon
  • 18 core
  • 20 gate (3:20)
  • 21 warpgate
  • 21 sentry
  • 23 MsC (Chronoboost)
  • 25 pylon (probe scout)
  • @100% sentry -> double stalker (Chronoboost)
  • 31 pylon
  • @100% stalkers -> double sentry
  • **cut probe production at 38/42**
  • 38 nexus (starts @5:45, finishes @7:25)
  • 38 robo (6:00)
  • @6:00 send halluncination scout
  • 38 (proxy) pylon
  • @100% warpgates -> stalker x2
  • 42 gate (6:45)
This particular build revolves around getting a sentry first, followed by double stalker, followed by double sentry. This order of units is safe against virtually any early pressure. The combination of an early sentry and the MSC gives you access to forcefield and nexus cannon, which will buy you enough time to respond appropriately to any threat. The follow up stalkers and sentries further reinforce your defensive strength, and will allow you to take an early nexus while neglecting to scout your opponent's main base until 6:00 with hallucination.

This build is safe against most early pressure; as such, there is no need to scout the opponent's main base quickly. However, there are certain precautions you do need to have. After you build your first gateway, you need to scout around your main base and natural for proxies. If you scout a proxy 2-gate or a cannon rush, drop the build immediately and defend appropriately.

When your sentry pops out (~4:15), you want to send a probe scout in the opposite direction of your MSC to scout the outskirts of the map for proxies. It's important to keep this probe hidden on the map after scouting in order to build proxy pylons, which will help if you get contained, or plan on aggressively counter-attacking. This MSC and probe scout should alert you to anything like a proxy stargate or an early hidden pylon and will allow you to react accordingly. During this time, your sentry should be poised to get as much vision in front of your ramp as possible in order to spot early zealots trying to run into your main.

During this time, you should be thinking about things like:
  • Is my opponent going for some kind of warp gate rush?
  • Is my opponent trying to proxy a stargate?
  • Is my opponent trying to hide a twilight or dark shrine?
  • If I don't see anything, is my opponent fast expanding?



The MsC scouts the cliff area outside of your main, while the probe scouts the outer edges on the other side of the map


At 6:00 the first sentry should have enough energy for hallucination, so use it to scout your opponent's tech choice. Along with your proxy scouting earlier, this should give you a clear image of what your opponent is doing. This scout timing will let you know if you should build an immortal or an observer first, as well as whether or not you can skip the third gateway in favor of a faster forge.

This build stops probe production at 38 supply to build a nexus, robo, and third gateway. This timing also coincides with the 6:00 hallucination scout and leaves you with 19 probes on minerals, three on each gas, and one hiding on the map. If you scout pressure, you should cut probe production until you've defended the pressure. If you do not scout pressure, you should continue worker production and expand.


The basic setup: 3 sentries/2 stalkers


Defending Pressure

This build relies heavily on scouting the telltale signs of aggression and making appropriate changes to react to it. Between your vision coverage in the early game and your hallucination scout, you can get a fairly good idea of what your opponent is doing. This section will cover how to defend several different types of common pressure builds.

3-Gate Pressure
3-gate pressure will generally get to your natural around 5:30 with three stalkers and a MSC; in this case, your nexus will already be building and under fire. Feel free to poke at the stalkers to push them back, but don't stray too far from your ramp. Once you see additional reinforcements, make sure to stay back on your ramp and cancel the nexus if necessary. If your nexus manages to finish, use photon overcharge and push into your natural with the units that you have. If the nexus is canceled, build an additional gateway (for a total of four) and start a warp prism as soon as possible to break out of the contain.

VodVod Welmu vs. duckdeok Set 3. From WCS Europe, Ro16 (Welmu wins)
Vod State vs. Arthur Set 2. From WCS America, Challenger League, Group E (Arthur wins)
VodVod Oz vs. HerO Set 1. From WCS America Ro32 (HerO wins)
**NOTE: The first player mentioned in the replay links is the player executing the build

3-Gate/Oracle Pressure
While there are many variations on this particular build, though generally the goal of the build is to pressure your front with stalkers, while sending an oracle into your main mineral line. Between your MSC and probe scout, as well as your hallucination scout, you should be able to spot a stargate by about 6:30. This build will generally hit your natural by 6:30 with about five stalkers and an oracle in your main mineral line. Against this you have to cancel the nexus, build an immortal, and warp in additional stalkers or zealots. It's important to place 3 stalkers in your main mineral line to deflect the oracles, while keeping your sentries near your ramp to forcefield. To break out of a contain, build a warp prism as soon as possible, and push down your ramp.

VodVod Welmu vs. duckdeok Set 2. From WCS Europe, Ro16 (Welmu wins)

Proxy Stargate
When you scout a proxy stargate with your MSC or probe, immediately pull your stalkers back to your mineral line, and build two stalkers in place of the two additional sentries. The earliest an oracle or a void ray can hit is ~5:15-5:30. While this is difficult to hold, and requires good micro or possibly a probe pull, it's possible to defend using this build. Against an oracle, expand as soon as possible, against void rays, you should continue making stalkers until you have enough energy to use photon overcharge; this should buy you enough time to get up warpgate.

Blink Stalkers
Stalkers will generally walk across the map and hit you around 6:30, and blink will finish around 7:10 at the earliest. Your nexus should finish in time for you to use photon overcharge, which will push the stalkers away. During the time that photon overcharge is active, chronoboost immortals out, and warp in zealots. With immortals, zealots, and good positioning, you should be able to defend this pressure. Make sure you get a followup scout on whether or not your opponent expanded; if he does not expand, you need to keep cutting probes and continually make gateway units.

Vod Oz vs. HerO Set 2. From WCS America, Ro32 (Oz wins)

Dark Templar
DTs can hit you at 6:30-7:00, but the earliest you can get an observer using this build is 7:20. While waiting for the observer, hold position your units on the ramp (stalkers in front) and forcefield out any DTs that try to push up the ramp. Once your observer is out, you're free to walk down your ramp.

VodVod Mana vs. TitaN Set 1. From WCS Europe, Ro16 (TitaN wins)
VodVod Sage vs. MacSed Set 1. From WCS America, Ro16 (MacSec wins)

4-Gate Archon Bust
If your 6:00 hallucination scout spots three or four gateways with no expansion, beware of a potential archon bust after deflecting the dark templar. An archon bust typically hits around 7:00-7:30. If your opponent lost a couple of DTs without doing any damage, you can try to hold your natural by walling it off with extra gateways. However, walling off is map dependent; good walling maps for this would be Bel'Shir Vestige or Frost. If you choose to abandon your natural, you can hold this attack more easily with a three-pylon wall at your ramp, or a good simcity in your main. During this time, you should be constantly warping in stalkers/zealots from your gateways as well.

Phoenix All-ins
Phoenix all-ins typically don't hit until after 7:30, which is when there are three to four phoenixes out. Phoenix all-ins are deadly if handled improperly by a fast expanding player, so you need to make sure you identify phoenixes and three to four gateways as soon as possible. After you've identified phoenix plus gateway pressure and no nexus from your opponent, cancel or sacrifice your own nexus and build an additional gateway for a total of four. In this scenario, place your units at the top of your ramp and continually warp in gateway units. Use a proxy pylon or warp prism to warp in zealots for harassment, do this until you have enough units to break out of the contain. In some cases, proxying a twilight council and a dark shrine with your hidden probe can allow you a very powerful stalker/archon/chargelot counterattack, as well as a more reliable way to break down your ramp.

Void Ray All-ins
Void Ray all-ins can be difficult to beat if you don't get a good scout in, but between your hallucination scouts and observers, you should be able to scout void rays, extra gateways, and no nexus, in time to get the proper defenses. Most void ray all-ins hit around 8:00 with four void rays. When you scout a void ray all-in, you should add an extra gateway (for a total of four) and warp in as many stalkers as possible. In some cases, void ray all-ins can be zealot-heavy, in which case it's important to wall off your natural depending on the map. If you feel you can't hold your natural, feel free to sacrifice your nexus, and then retreat to the high ground while starting a twilight council for blink.

Other 1-Base All-ins
All other 1-base all-ins will generally hit after 7:30 and will feature tech units of choice including immortals, colossus, warp prisms, and archons. To scout for these attacks, send a followup hallucination scout or probe scout to check for the nexus. If there is no nexus down by 7:00-7:30, you should prepare for a 1-base all-in by adding one or two gateways -- to a maximum of four -- and warping in as many gateway units as possible.

Using this build, your hallucination scout will arrive at your opponent's base a little bit before your robo finishes, allowing you the choice of making an immortal or an observer first based on what you see. Generally, you want to make an immortal first anytime you scout heavy gateway pressure (i.e. 3-gate pressure, blink stalkers, 3-gate stargate pressure, etc.) and an observer first if you scout any type of expansion or DT play.

Variations


Early Forge Variation

If you scout your opponent going for an early expand with your hallucinated phoenix, you can opt to build a forge instead of a third gateway at 42 supply. Halt robo production and spend all chronoboost on probes; this will allow you to power hard into the mid game. Generally, players will follow up with very early natural gases (~7:30-8:00) followed by either twilight tech or colossus tech. Add extra gateways as soon as 2-base saturation is reached. Overall, this is an economic play that can set you up for a very powerful 2-base timing.

A mid game attack...power overwhelming style


Vod Puzzle vs. Classic Set 1. From Peoleague 2013, Semifinals, KT Rolster vs. STX Soul (Classic wins)
Vod Mana vs. TitaN Set 2. From WCS Europe, Ro16 (Mana wins)
VodVod Oz vs. HerO Set 3. From WCS America, Ro32 (HerO wins)


3-Gate Pressure Variation
If your opponent goes for an earlier nexus (1-gate FE or nexus first), this build has a built in attack to punish it because of its emphasis on gateway units. When you use a hallucination scout at 6:00, you can get a good idea if your opponent expanded earlier than you and you can set up an attack:

      ...
  • 40 stalker
  • 42 stalker
  • 42 gateway
  • (make 2 observers)

(As warpgates become available):
  • stalker
  • zealot
  • zealot
  • zealot x3 @proxy
  • *Chronoboost gateways*
  • zealot x3 @proxy
  • MsC stays at home with observer*


Move out at 7:30-8:00 with your gateway units, leaving your MSC and an observer at home. The attack should hit around 8:30-9:00 with 5 stalkers, 3 sentries, and 8 zealots. You should be producing probes constantly, using your MSC to defend from any kinds of zealot and or DT counterattacks. The primary purpose of this push is to allow you to saturate your natural more quickly than your opponent, but it is possible to kill their natural. Unless you are doing critical damage, consider pulling back after one to two additional warpins; then add a forge and twilight, or robo bay, as a transition while taking your natural gases. At this point you can transition into immortal/archon/chargelot or colossus.

Killing your opponent's nexus feels nice, doesn't it?


Some notes:
  • You can attack through the nexus cannon with the high number of gateway units you have
  • An optional tactic for this push is to hallucinate a warp prism or oracle to pull back some of your opponent's units from the natural
  • If your opponent moves his units onto the high ground, you can forcefield the ramp and get a 100% guaranteed nexus kill


Vod Rain vs. Dear Set 1. From Proleague 2013 Quarterfinals, SK Telecom vs. STX Soul (Dear wins)
VodVod Rain vs. Welmu Set 3. From WCS Season 2 Finals, Group A (Rain wins)


Transitions


Immortal/Archon/Chargelot
Immortal/archon/chargelot is generally the most common transition out of this build because you already have most of the infrastructure and several gateway units. It's also a very middle-of-the-road composition which does well against almost every other composition in the game: which furthers the theme of this build. Most often players will get immortals, charge, +1 attack, a templar archives, and 6-8 gateways off of 2 bases. From here, attempt to pressure the opponent while taking a faster third and transitioning into the late game by adding on tempests if needed against colossus.

Colossus
Colossus transitions are becoming increasingly less popular as more players are using immortal/archon/chargelot. However, colossus mid games are still quite strong and contain a very powerful 2-base timing with four to six colossus; alternatively, you can take a later yet safer third base. Colossus transitions have a glaring weakness to stargate-based play, and should not be used against a player who opened stargate into phoenix or void rays.

Most colossus players will slowly transition back into immortal/archon/chargelot as they lose colossi in big battles. The end goal is to also add tempests to deal with enemy tempests/colossi.

Void Ray
This is the least popular build transition as this particular composition is especially hard to smoothly transition into unless you opened stargate; however, It is still possible against other robo-based expands. This strategy is purely defensive and attempts to get a strong deathball together early. Add one or two stargates after deflecting any pressure and start void ray production while getting ground and air upgrades. After a critical mass of void rays (6-8) is reached, you can take a third safely and gradually transition into immortal/void ray/chargelot.

FAQs


What do I do if I scout a proxy 2-gate? Will the sentry be out in time?
If you scout a proxy 2-gate, obviously drop your sentry-first opening and defend appropriately.

How does this build fare against zealot and stalker pokes?
This build gets a sentry and 2 stalkers out at 5:30, the normal timing for a standard poke, so you should be able to deflect it without any trouble.

After early gateway pressure, I get contained on 1-base and can't get out...what do I do?
The most common response is to make a warp prism from your robo and drop a few zealots while pushing down your ramp. If you managed to get a pylon out on the map, you can also do a zealot warpin to harass as well.

Is it possible to substitute a stargate for the robo? What about going blink or DTs?
These timings are a little less solid and stargate play takes greater multi-tasking ability. You should not go blink or DTs to follow up this expand, primarily because you won't have detection and you don't get a solid scout until 6:00. If you try to skip detection with this build, you will 100% lose to early DTs.

I keep dying to certain all-ins like 10-gate into 3-gate, void ray all-ins, proxy 2-gate/core cheeses, etc. Am I doing something wrong?
Honestly, these are all very difficult builds to stop even in the most ideal situations. Unless you're already opening with a 3-stalker rush, these cheeses are very difficult to hold. Fortunately, this build is the closest thing to a 3-stalker rush so it shouldn't be a build order loss: you just need to micro very well in order to win.

How is this build better than a one-gate expand?
This build gets a lot of gateway units out early to deal with any potential threats while a one-gate expand focus on getting a very early nexus for an early photon overcharge to deflect early pressure. The two-gate expand's more mobile defense provides a lot of flexibility to adapt to your opponent's build and react accordingly, allowing you to play more safely and stably into the mid game compared to a one-gate expand. This build, for instance, can blindly hold proxy stargates and blink stalker all-ins and doesn't have to blindly build an immortal after expanding. The keyword here is safety.

Of course, the heavy gateway count and later nexus of a two-gate expand result in a less economic opening with a later nexus and later tech. However, the focus on heavy gateway units and good flow on information allows you to compete with the more economic 1-gate expands by using 3-gate attacks and faster forges to pull ahead. While one-gate expands can deflect 3-gate pressure with a finished nexus and nexus cannon, the two-gate expand has weaknesses to 3-gate pressure builds before the nexus has finished (~7:30). In these situations, it's usually mandatory to cancel the nexus, defend on one base, and play from behind. However, the emphasis on early gateway units allows you to harass and push down your ramp fairly early to break even again. During this time, you can generally get a strong read on your opponent through hallucination and observers.

The point of this build is to develop of a stable defense while taking an early non-committal expansion. Simply put, in situations where one-gate expands would die, this build would only be playing from behind. The two-gate expand is a great ladder build because of it's ability to defend almost anything with only minor adjustments.

Is this build map dependent?
This build has the potential to do well on any map, but works best on maps with small chokes at the natural and manageable cliffs such as Frost or Bel'Shir Vestige. This is primarily due to the build's reliance on forcefields and walloffs to deal with certain all-ins. This build does not do well on maps with large surface areas to blink into the main such as Yeonsu or Polar Night.

I'm learning builds for a BoX series...would you say this is a good build to add?
Not particularly. While this build is safe and stable, it isn't greedy or aggressive enough to put you far ahead of your opponent compared to other builds like 4-gate blink or one-gate expands. However, it works well in Bo1 matches and ladder because of its safety. If you wanted to open up with a very stable macro build in a BoX series, though, this could potentially work well as an opening build but not much better than a DT expand or a more standard robo expand

Brought to you by the TL Strategy Team
Writer: SC2John
Feedback and Peer Review: monk, myRZeth, Teoita
Graphics: Naganis
Replay Support: ZeromuS
Liquipedia Support: NovemberstOrm, PolskaGora
Editors: CrazyF1r3f0x, Hayl_storm, monk, wo1fwood
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MtlGuitarist97
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States1539 Posts
September 18 2013 23:36 GMT
#2
So sad about the lack of Terran guides T_T

Anyway, looks like it's good work. The strategy team has really been doing a great job with these recent guides.
Naganis
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Italy125 Posts
September 18 2013 23:43 GMT
#3
On September 19 2013 08:36 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
So sad about the lack of Terran guides T_T

Anyway, looks like it's good work. The strategy team has really been doing a great job with these recent guides.


Have faith in TL Strategy, they always work for you. Stay tuned, maybe the next guide will be on Terran, or Zerg perhaps?
+
| Grubby Official Graphic Designer | TL Strategy Graphic Designer | ESL Graphic Designer |
igay
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia1178 Posts
September 19 2013 00:00 GMT
#4
I love every guide you guys put out!
MVP <3 MKP <3 DRG <3
iLevitate
Profile Joined April 2012
United States225 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-19 00:26:13
September 19 2013 00:00 GMT
#5
There is no such thing as a safe build in PvP... what is this gibberish?


I MUST READ!

edit: Finish reading.. I must say.. the writer have a whole 'nother definition of "safe".

You lose, You learn
NeThZOR
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
South Africa7387 Posts
September 19 2013 00:11 GMT
#6
Thanks a bunch guys.
SuperNova - 2015 | SKT1 fan for years | Dear, FlaSh, PartinG, Soulkey, Naniwa
Yonnua
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2331 Posts
September 19 2013 00:12 GMT
#7
Thank goodness, TL Strategy! You always have great timing; first saving my PvT with Tails' DT build, now saving my PvP!

Great job guys; looking forward to reading this and learning the build to within an inch of its life. :D
LRSL 2014 Finalist! PartinG | Mvp | Bomber | Creator | NaNiwa | herO
Hayl_Storm
Profile Joined April 2011
The Shire633 Posts
September 19 2013 00:20 GMT
#8
Another Protoss guide!

What's up with these shenanigans?
Editor@TL_Hayl // Return of the (Marine)King
TLGoku
Profile Joined September 2013
6 Posts
September 19 2013 00:23 GMT
#9
"safe"

User was warned for this post
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
September 19 2013 00:23 GMT
#10
Great guide. I already do a 2-gate expand which opens 3 Stalker, so I'll have to try the Sentry-heavy version. That 3-gate attack seems interesting, usually when I see a 1-gate FE I just cancel the Nexus and throw down 2 desperation gates and it tends to work at my level. I'd much rather have a half-decent response
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
DifuntO
Profile Joined November 2011
Greece2376 Posts
September 19 2013 00:26 GMT
#11
Nice guide.Seems like a solid build.

I'll try it but i suck so i'm still gonna lose to early attacks
All I do is Stim.
BnBTaurveus
Profile Joined April 2011
United States14 Posts
September 19 2013 00:34 GMT
#12
I like 1 gate, but this seems pretty decent.
Yonnua
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2331 Posts
September 19 2013 00:40 GMT
#13
On September 19 2013 09:12 Yonnua wrote:
Thank goodness, TL Strategy! You always have great timing; first saving my PvT with Tails' DT build, now saving my PvP!

Great job guys; looking forward to reading this and learning the build to within an inch of its life. :D


I've read through now and it's gorgeous - it covers every possible eventuality flawlessly and explains the response. Using this build should make it easy to get in to the mid-game with a considerable advantage.
LRSL 2014 Finalist! PartinG | Mvp | Bomber | Creator | NaNiwa | herO
city42
Profile Joined October 2007
1656 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-19 00:48:23
September 19 2013 00:46 GMT
#14
This build is actually terrible against blink all-in...not sure why you state otherwise. If you check your provided VOD carefully, Oz does a different build and is thus able to hold the attack off. Sentry stalker stalker sentry sentry nexus is a near-autoloss against that particular all-in.

edit: I should point out that the build Oz used in that VOD (which Hero also uses) has a huge downside: no fast halluc scout. Unfortunately there are no HOTS PvP builds that are safe against everything.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-19 01:20:51
September 19 2013 01:11 GMT
#15
On September 19 2013 09:46 city42 wrote:
This build is actually terrible against blink all-in...not sure why you state otherwise. If you check your provided VOD carefully, Oz does a different build and is thus able to hold the attack off. Sentry stalker stalker sentry sentry nexus is a near-autoloss against that particular all-in.

edit: I should point out that the build Oz used in that VOD (which Hero also uses) has a huge downside: no fast halluc scout. Unfortunately there are no HOTS PvP builds that are safe against everything.


The build that Oz used gets exactly all of the same things that this build gets by the same time. At 7:30, you have a completed nexus, 4-6 stalkers/3 sentries, and an immortal on the way against ~8 blink stalkers or ~12 stalkers without blink at the worst. Along with nexus cannon, you can defend long enough to get 2 immortals and 1-2 more waves of warpins from 3 gates. And once you have a sizeable enough chunk of zealot/stalker/immortal that you can split your forces, there's nothing blink stalkers can do.

The particular build that HerO used in that VoD does get a very late blink (and 2 sentries?), but having it earlier wouldn't have made any difference as Oz already had the necessary ingredients to defend a blink stalker attack at 7:10.

Also, I don't consider not having a fast hallucination scout to be a "huge downside". An early hallucination scout is nice because you get a 100% free scout of your opponent, but it comes with the drawback of having to be very passive. I suggest watching this video to get a better understanding of how scouting works in PvP: PvP: Scouting in the Early/Mid Game
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
September 19 2013 01:19 GMT
#16
On September 19 2013 10:11 SC2John wrote:
Also, I don't consider a fast hallucination scout to be a "huge downside". An early hallucination scout is nice because you get a 100% free scout of your opponent, but it comes with the drawback of having to be very passive. I suggest watching this video to get a better understanding of how scouting works in PvP: PvP: Scouting in the Early/Mid Game

Actually, he said not having a fast hallu scout was the huge downside.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
September 19 2013 01:20 GMT
#17
On September 19 2013 10:19 Antylamon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 19 2013 10:11 SC2John wrote:
Also, I don't consider a fast hallucination scout to be a "huge downside". An early hallucination scout is nice because you get a 100% free scout of your opponent, but it comes with the drawback of having to be very passive. I suggest watching this video to get a better understanding of how scouting works in PvP: PvP: Scouting in the Early/Mid Game

Actually, he said not having a fast hallu scout was the huge downside.


I badly worded that. I correct myself: NOT having a fast hallucination scout is NOT a "huge downside".
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
city42
Profile Joined October 2007
1656 Posts
September 19 2013 01:31 GMT
#18
On September 19 2013 10:11 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 19 2013 09:46 city42 wrote:
This build is actually terrible against blink all-in...not sure why you state otherwise. If you check your provided VOD carefully, Oz does a different build and is thus able to hold the attack off. Sentry stalker stalker sentry sentry nexus is a near-autoloss against that particular all-in.

edit: I should point out that the build Oz used in that VOD (which Hero also uses) has a huge downside: no fast halluc scout. Unfortunately there are no HOTS PvP builds that are safe against everything.


The build that Oz used gets exactly all of the same things that this build gets by the same time. At 7:30, you have a completed nexus, 5-7 stalkers/3 sentries, and an immortal on the way against ~8 blink stalkers at the worst. Along with nexus cannon, you can defend long enough to get 2 immortals and 1-2 more waves of warpins from 3 gates. And once you have a sizeable enough chunk of zealot/stalker/immortal that you can split your forces, there's nothing blink stalkers can do.

The particular build that HerO used in that VoD does get a very late blink (and 2 sentries?), but having it earlier wouldn't have made any difference as Oz already had the necessary ingredients to defend a blink stalker attack at 7:10.

Also, I don't consider a fast hallucination scout to be a "huge downside". An early hallucination scout is nice because you get a 100% free scout of your opponent, but it comes with the drawback of having to be very passive. I suggest watching this video to get a better understanding of how scouting works in PvP: PvP: Scouting in the Early/Mid Game

It's really not enough against a proper blink build, with 11 stalkers blinking on top of your immortal at 7:50. I've been using this build since Oz showed it off at IEM, and blink is extremely good against it, especially on maps where blinking straight into the main is possible. This is at NA GM level which isn't the best, but I do know how to execute a build order.

One more thing:

10-Gate Into 3-Gate Pressure
The sign of this build is an early stalker and zealot poke before 5:30.

This doesn't seem to be accurate. Considering that build warps 3 stalkers into your main or natural at 5:20, it's a whole lot more than a "poke" at your ramp at 5:30! The poke will be before 5:00 and will include a probe.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
September 19 2013 01:37 GMT
#19
On September 19 2013 10:31 city42 wrote:

Show nested quote +
10-Gate Into 3-Gate Pressure
The sign of this build is an early stalker and zealot poke before 5:30.

This doesn't seem to be accurate. Considering that build warps 3 stalkers into your main or natural at 5:20, it's a whole lot more than a "poke" at your ramp at 5:30! The poke will be before 5:00 and will include a probe.


Originally the text said "significantly" but was edited out . The point here is that the earliest a normal 13-gate zealot/stalker poke will get to you is 5:30; if there are any zealot/stalker pokes before that time, you automatically know he went for a 10-gate (or a 12-gate, but that's less common).
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
ShoCkSC2
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
Germany340 Posts
September 19 2013 01:48 GMT
#20
I did a Videoguide on a very similar 1(!) gate FE build. Basically, the Idea is the same - a way of gaining information through mapcontrol and intelligent spacing.

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