EPTStable PvP: Two Gate Safe FE - Page 2
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CrazyHunter
United States83 Posts
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
I like it as a ladder build because if you do everything right, and your opponent's build is just a little sloppy, you defend everything. Sadly, if your opponent and you play perfectly, you lose to almost everything. It's also really sad when your opponent one gate expands! It used to be every toss in PL played this build. Like I said, this guide was well-written. Despite my quibbling, I really had blast reading it. | ||
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LockeTazeline
2390 Posts
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Rickyvalle21
United States320 Posts
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jcroisdale
United States1543 Posts
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sns3rsam
United States138 Posts
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 19 2013 06:21 TL Strategy wrote: Other 1-Base All-ins All other 1-base all-ins will generally hit after 7:30 and will feature tech units of choice including immortals, colossus, warp prisms, and archons. To scout for these attacks, send a followup hallucination scout or probe scout to check for the nexus. If there is no nexus down by 7:00-7:30, you should prepare for a 1-base all-in by adding one or two gateways -- to a maximum of four -- and warping in as many gateway units as possible. Question! How about the Korean Style Four Warpgate All-In? The current trend of heavy teching and later scouting has enticed me to resurrect this archaic build, and while I am a mediocre player playing against other mediocre players, I have been met with surprising success. I'm interested in knowing what more skilled players think about this. | ||
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Lokken_8
Czech Republic69 Posts
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
On September 19 2013 13:30 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Question! How about the Korean Style Four Warpgate All-In? The current trend of heavy teching and later scouting has enticed me to resurrect this archaic build, and while I am a mediocre player playing against other mediocre players, I have been met with surprising success. I'm interested in knowing what more skilled players think about this. That build relies very heavily on a poor reaction from your opponent. Sure, it'll work sometimes, but almost everything works sometimes, evena build like K4G that relies on getting pylons down in your opponents main. This expand build can hold it off (as can practically any build), although as with any cheese defence, you have to react correctly or you'll probably lose. I like the guide and it gives a great additional way to play on ladder, but I definitely prefer a stargate expand - it's safer and although you will be behind faster expand builds from an economic perspective, phoenixes give you an ideal way to catch up - or all-in if you aren't willing to catch up with better multitasking than your opponent. | ||
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Littlesheep
Canada217 Posts
http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvp/pvp-traps-3gate-all-in/ I think this type of 3gate beats the 2gate FE | ||
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InfusedTT.DaZe
Romania693 Posts
after 3 years of pvp... no... there is no safe pvp build that has no cons, any pro protoss player will agree | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
On September 19 2013 15:00 Littlesheep wrote: I use Traps3gate in PvP http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvp/pvp-traps-3gate-all-in/ I like this type of 3gate beats the 2gate FE If it's scouted this should be holdable and that build is extremely easy to scout, at least that's what my gut feel is. Early sentry to stall the attack and a better economy + ramp should be enough to hold this off. | ||
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tar
Germany991 Posts
On September 19 2013 15:30 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote: it's a bit out of fashion but, this build is actually free lose vs a 1 gate -> council -> blink and 3 more gates all-in after 3 years of pvp... no... there is no safe pvp build that has no cons, any pro protoss player will agree In my experience blink all ins are the ones held more easily with an FE build. Stargate all ins are far more tricky. edit: also I woke up this morning checked TL and was like: again no blog post from SC2John... is this guy on holidays...., then I clicked this article :D | ||
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Mahanaim
Korea (South)1002 Posts
Mahanaim | ||
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Rickyvalle21
United States320 Posts
On September 19 2013 15:33 althaz wrote: If it's scouted this should be holdable and that build is extremely easy to scout, at least that's what my gut feel is. Early sentry to stall the attack and a better economy + ramp should be enough to hold this off. The guide is not saying to probe scout. My guess is that it will throw off certain timings. Havent done the build yet but if you probe scout, I would guess you dont have enough to chrono 2 stalkers right away. As I mention before this build will lose to 10 gate 3 gate. Also Traps all in is not even the hardest hitting 10 gate 3 gate. His hits at 5:27-5:30. A better variation hits at 5:20-5:23 which you wont have enough to defend by then. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
Obviously there is no such thing as an all-around pvp build that's good against everything; it's more about how behind are you vs what "counters" you and how ahead are you vs what you're countering. This build minimizes both. You aren't that far behind vs say blink all-ins compared to a crazy coinflip like, 1gate fe->stargate, but you aren't as ahead either against DT expo compared to a greedier 1gate FE->robo for instance. Of course these are somewhat extreme examples, but that's the general idea behind this. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On September 19 2013 19:57 Teoita wrote: You guys seem to be misunderstanding things. Obviously there is no such thing as an all-around pvp build that's good against everything; it's more about how behind are you vs what "counters" you and how ahead are you vs what you're countering. This build minimizes both. You aren't that far behind vs say blink all-ins compared to a crazy coinflip like, 1gate fe->stargate, but you aren't as ahead either against DT expo compared to a greedier 1gate FE->robo for instance. Of course these are somewhat extreme examples, but that's the general idea behind this. TL Protoss builds should have memorable names like the Magic Johnson (2-2-2) or the Man Train (Zealot/Immortal all in). I humbly suggest that this awesome new guide should be referred to as "The Goldilocks Opening." | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 19 2013 10:56 CrazyHunter wrote: Awesome stuff. Is this the current Meta though? I usually see 3 gate expand or one gate expand.. Oh well, can't wait to try it out soon! Thanks for the guide OP! It started making an appearance during S2 of WCS and also in Proleague. Players who seem to use it most often have been Welmu and Rain (and Mana to some extent). On September 19 2013 11:10 -_- wrote: I like this build, and this guide is good, but I personally do not find this build safe. In fact, it loses to almost everything PRECISE. A PRECISE VR all-in, phoenix all-in, 3-5-7 Stalker pressure, MSC blink, crazy fast DTS. Damn. This build loses to everything TIGHT. I like it as a ladder build because if you do everything right, and your opponent's build is just a little sloppy, you defend everything. Sadly, if your opponent and you play perfectly, you lose to almost everything. It's also really sad when your opponent one gate expands! It used to be every toss in PL played this build. Like I said, this guide was well-written. Despite my quibbling, I really had blast reading it. I don't know why you say that this loses to everything. As is common with a fast expand build, it has some weaknesses to stargate play and really early blink aggression, but this build makes up for that with a large number of early gateway units and a fairly early robo; in the worst case scenarios, you can just give up your natural and play from behind whereas 1-gate expands would just straight up die to some of these things. 3-7 stalker pressure is actually very easy to deflect with this build. Fast DTs are also super easy to beat. Most DT expands have DTs warped in at 6:50, but if the twilight goes down before stalker or MsC, the first DTs can get warped in at 6:20 at the earliest. At that point, you STILL get a hallucination scout and you'll have 2-3 forcefields available to buy you time; in a worst case scenario, you may have to pull your probes and run around a bit, but you should lose almost nothing to DTs with this build. On September 19 2013 12:15 Rickyvalle21 wrote: Well written guide but I do disagree that this build is safe vs anything. Pvp nothing is safe vs anything. A 10 gate 3 gate will win vs this if executed right. A probe and a zealot can come up your ramp at 4:45-4:55 and by that time you will have 1 sentry and mothershipcore in its scouting path and 2 stalkers on the way. You can either let the probe come and proxy in your base or ff the probe out but then u will have to beat 5 stalkers 1 zealot with 2 stalkers and 1 sentry and a mothershipcore. You're absolutely right, this was overlooked in the making of the guide. That section is taken out. 10-gate, however, is rare and difficult to hold even if you know it's coming. With this build, the best thing I can tell you is to use your 1 forcefield to buy time, chronoboost only stalkers, and pull half your probes to hold on the initial push. If you can get a surround on the ramp, it's possible to hold this. On September 19 2013 12:23 jcroisdale wrote: why is there no talk about macro phoenix play? I feel very far behind if my opponent open no sentries straight into 1 gate sg phoenix. Obviously stargate openings are good versus both robo AND early expand builds. However, if they are opting to play macro and expand, you're not really in a bad spot, especially if you spotted it and managed to get your forge down early. Most of the time players will transition into Immortal/Archon/Chargelot with this build, using stalkers and photon overcharge to push away the phoenixes, but you can also try some variations such as going blink before charge, cancelling the robo and reactively putting down double stargate, etc., etc. Get creative .On September 19 2013 13:30 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Question! How about the Korean Style Four Warpgate All-In? The current trend of heavy teching and later scouting has enticed me to resurrect this archaic build, and while I am a mediocre player playing against other mediocre players, I have been met with surprising success. I'm interested in knowing what more skilled players think about this. Korean 4-gate was taken out because it's such an old and out-of-style build. Most modern warp gate rushes are either 10-gate into 3-gate, 3-gate pressure, or delayed 4-gate with 2 gases. To defend with this build, you just forcefield your ramp @5:45-6:00 (you should have 2-4 FFs ready depending on whether or not you already sent hallucination scout)...if you can't continually forcefield your opponent out, you can hide behind photon overcharge until you can get an immortal and several gateway units off of your 3-gates. Worst case scenario, you have to pull probes, but 4-gate should be easy to deal with using this build. On September 19 2013 15:30 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote: it's a bit out of fashion but, this build is actually free lose vs a 1 gate -> council -> blink and 3 more gates all-in after 3 years of pvp... no... there is no safe pvp build that has no cons, any pro protoss player will agree I disagree. Robo expands are the best case scenario against blink stalkers, the only issue being that the stalkers can blink past your natural directly into your main. If you're really worried about stalker all-ins, you can just get the robo before expanding for a faster 2nd immortal. In my opinion, the most important thing to defending blink is to get up 3-4 zealots as fast as possible to prevent the blink on top of your immortal. On September 19 2013 22:03 Salient wrote: TL Protoss builds should have memorable names like the Magic Johnson (2-2-2) or the Man Train (Zealot/Immortal all in). I humbly suggest that this awesome new guide should be referred to as "The Goldilocks Opening." Hahahahaha, I approve. | ||
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ShoCkSC2
Germany340 Posts
On September 19 2013 19:57 Teoita wrote: You guys seem to be misunderstanding things. Obviously there is no such thing as an all-around pvp build that's good against everything; it's more about how behind are you vs what "counters" you and how ahead are you vs what you're countering. This build minimizes both. You aren't that far behind vs say blink all-ins compared to a crazy coinflip like, 1gate fe->stargate, but you aren't as ahead either against DT expo compared to a greedier 1gate FE->robo for instance. Of course these are somewhat extreme examples, but that's the general idea behind this. Yes, people overemphasize on reading "safe build". Gotta +1 this post. | ||
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hipo
France482 Posts
A few games you might want to add to your guide: - Sos vs Parting on Akilon in PL R6 [WJS vs SKT] (both players open 2gate FE) - Dear vs Trust on Akilon in PL R6 [STX vs CJ] (vs 1gate FE) Slight variation of the build (1 stalker into 2 sentries before Nexus): - Wooki vs Trap on Newkirk Precint in PL R6 [STX vs KT] (Wooki actually lost vs fast DT + 4gate) | ||
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